***THE OFFICIAL 2014 New England Patriots training camp thread***

Big-T said:

Joe Haden ran 4.57, is he too slow as well?

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Who said anyone was too slow?
Are you saying speed is a major strength for Joe Haden, or that he compensates very well for not being the fastest guy out there?
Are you saying Butler has the same level of skills as Haden to compensate just as well?

AndyJohnson said:

Who said anyone was too slow?
Are you saying speed is a major strength for Joe Haden, or that he compensates very well for not being the fastest guy out there?
Are you saying Butler has the same level of skills as Haden to compensate just as well?

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No, I'm saying the 40 time is essentially pointless. Watch how fast players are in pads, not underwear.

JMC00 said:

And it's still up in the air if Mayo's absence is even injury related. I don't think it was reported that he left any practice early with an apparent injury.

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Had to have been injury. Vet with 3 days off in a row?

Brady_to_Moss said:

Had to have been injury. Vet with 3 days off in a row?

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At this time of year, a vet of his stature is more likely to be given three days off to deal with a personal issue.

AndyJohnson said:

You seem to not really understand this.
Compared to corners Butler is slow. He is also short.
Being short is not something that prevents him from being a corner, but it is certainly something that makes it more difficult.
Butlers speed is an issue. Of course slower corners have been successful, but how in the world you are comparing him to Ty Law at this point is beyond comprehension to me.
Butler seems to have questionable size, speed, and experience to make it as an NFL corner. People got all excited because he looked OK DUE TO the surprise that he actually could.
For him to make it as an NFL corner and overcome the speed and size issues, he will have to have excellent skills, and its silly to assume he has proven that yet.
I don't know why you feel compelled to act as if his weaknesses do not exist.

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5'11 is not small compared to other CBs and yes, Butler ran a slow 40 time at his pro-day....big deal, he doesn't look slow on the field. I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most.

AzPatsFan said:

Fans are strange ducks. They obsess in finding a great reserve TE behind Gronk, but nary a peep do they make, regarding the reserve for McCourty at S1.

No one thinks for a second, or even proposes that the likely reserve S1 is likely Logan Ryan. All the other candidates resemble in size, or speed or degree to a SS. Only Ryan looks like, is built like, or has the wheels of a FS resembling Devin.The only other possibility is A

Who is McCourty's backup?

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Arrington or Ryan

Big-T said:

No, I'm saying the 40 time is essentially pointless. Watch how fast players are in pads, not underwear.

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I don't agree.

Speed is not pointless. And you aren't faster in pads vs shorts or vice versa.

Your speed is what it is. Now, if you have great anticipation, good acceleration for recovery speed or are smart and always in position, you will outplay a guy with better speed. That is what causes players to 'look faster in pads'. Nonetheless, there speed is a liability. Every player has liabilities. Unfortunately for a cornerback, speed is an important one.

Halifax_Pats_Fan said:

How has Devlin looked in camp....anyone?...arrow going up?

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He had a Gronk-like reception and sideline rumble/knock 2 defenders over last week against the Redskins.

Nunchucks said:

5'11 is not small compared to other CBs and yes, Butler ran a slow 40 time at his pro-day....big deal, he doesn't look slow on the field. I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most.

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I am not infutated with anything, I am assessing the player, and his speed is not good at a position where speed matters a lot.
Why do you want to ignore his weakness?
You are taking one preseason game against questionable competition and using it dismiss his weaknesses as if they do not exist. I dont understand that.

AndyJohnson said:

I don't agree.
Speed is not pointless. And you aren't faster in pads vs shorts or vice versa.
Your speed is what it is. Now, if you have great anticipation, good acceleraton for recovery speed or are smart and always in position, you will outplay a guy with better speed. That is what causes players to 'look faster in pads'. Nonetheless, there speed is a liability. Every player has liabilities. Unfortunately for a cornerback, speed is an important one.

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Ellis Hobbs III was wicked fast Andy.

Look, we get it - - you don't like Butler's game enough to say he may make the roster. I'm sure there are good arguments out there that could support that. You just aren't making them.

AndyJohnson said:

I am not infutated with anything, I am assessing the player, and his speed is not good at a position where speed matters a lot.
Why do you want to ignore his weakness?
You are taking one preseason game against questionable competition and using it dismiss his weaknesses as if they do not exist. I dont understand that.

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I am not focused on a single 40 time and instead am letting a players performance inform my analysis of his performance. Again, he had one "slow" 40 time...He could have stumbled or taken a mis-step, or a sore hammy, or had a bad start or any number of things.

If he is too slow, it will show up...Also, he has performed very well in more than just 1 preseason game, he has been producing during every practice and has been elevated to first team reps.

So, yes, he ran a 4.6 40...that does not really mean anything.

shmessy said:

Ellis Hobbs III was wicked fast Andy.

Look, we get it - - you don't like Butler's game enough to say he may make the roster. I'm sure there are good arguments out there that could support that. You just aren't making them.

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Well you aren't reading what I am saying then.
I never said he won't make the roster.
I never said he can't play.
I did say its silly to say he is a lock to make the roster.
I did say it is silly to say he is ahead of Dennard and Ryan.
I did say his speed is an issue, and I was not as impressed with his play vs Washington as others.
I did say that I would consider his play better if his coverage caused the QBs to not throw in his direction than throwing at him often, and that given his experience and weaknesses that may prove a problem against tougher competition, so I don't think the assessment is exactly complete.
Which do you object to?

I'm glad that I am not making a good argument about something that I am not saying by the way.

AndyJohnson said:

You seem to not really understand this.
Compared to corners Butler is slow. He is also short.
Being short is not something that prevents him from being a corner, but it is certainly something that makes it more difficult..

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Malcolm Butler 5'11"
Ty Law 5'11"
Alfonzo Dennard 5'10"
Darrelle Revis 5'11"
Kyle Arrington 5'11"
Logan Ryan 5'11"
Devin McCourty 5'10"
Brandon Browner 6'4"

Andy, can you at least put some EFFORT into your argument?

Nunchucks said:

I am not focused on a single 40 time and instead am letting a players performance inform my analysis of his performance. Again, he had one "slow" 40 time...He could have stumbled or taken a mis-step, or a sore hammy, or had a bad start or any number of things.

If he is too slow, it will show up...Also, he has performed very well in more than just 1 preseason game, he has been producing during every practice and has been elevated to first team reps.

So, yes, he ran a 4.6 40...that does not really mean anything.

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We have one measure of his speed and it is poor. Speed matters.
Sure we can guess, dream or hope that he is the rare player who overcomes a speed issue with other attributes, but I prefer to wait to see it before annointing him.
I guess it comes down to one preseason game wasn't enough for me to close the book at my assessment of this guy and hand him Dennards job.
I didn't say cut him.

I thought we were discussing the player. Should I ignore his flaws and cheer and hope it all turns out great or should we discuss the player?

AndyJohnson said:

Yes Butler is slow.
It has been a topic of conversation on this board this summer that his 40 times were awful for a corner.
Please give me something to change my opinion.
Please explain exactly what I am wrong about and which statements are incorrect?
I will happily admit I am wrong if you show me that I am.

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His pro day numbers were awful. In training camp and through one preseason game, his play has suggested that he is significantly more athletic than his pro day numbers indicate. Bad days happen, and clearly he had one. What I think you're missing is that pro day 40 times are far from an end-all measure. We see wide variances in 40 times all the time, because the same player, with the same game speed, can fluctuate pretty dramatically based on how thoroughly he's been training for the 40 specifically, health, randomness, what side of the bed he woke up on, etc. A slow 40 time is damning to the extent that it reflects a player's abilities and limitations on the field. If someone is consistently playing faster than their 40 time, then it's the 40 time that any sensible evaluator will throw out; not his body of work on the field. This is just common sense.

The fact that he was able to keep up with Aldrick Robinson (who ran a 4.35 at the combine) makes it pretty clear that he plays faster than his pro day 40 time. Does that mean he's good enough to stick? Too early to say, since I don't want to get caught up in the preseason hype machine. The early results are encouraging, and personally I think that he'll make the team, but we just don't know yet. What we do know is that he has the requisite athleticism to play with NFL-level competition. Ignoring a solid month of training camp and preseason play that strongly indicates that, because he ran a tenth of a second slower than you'd like at his pro day, is just dumb.

shmessy said:

Malcolm Butler 5'11"
Ty Law 5'11"
Alfonzo Dennard 5'10"
Darrelle Revis 5'11"
Kyle Arrington 5'11"
Logan Ryan 5'11"
Devin McCourty 5'10"
Brandon Browner 6'4"

Andy, can you at least put some EFFORT into your argument?

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I'm wrong here with the short comment.

BradyFTW! said:

His pro day numbers were awful. In training camp and through one preseason game, his play has suggested that he is significantly more athletic than his pro day numbers indicate. Bad days happen, and clearly he had one.

The fact that he was able to keep up with Aldrick Robinson (who ran a 4.35 at the combine) makes it pretty clear that he plays faster than his pro day 40 time. Does that mean he's good enough to stick? Too early to say, since I don't want to get caught up in the preseason hype machine. The early results are encouraging, and personally I think that he'll make the team, but we just don't know yet. What we do know is that he has the requisite athleticism to play with NFL-level competition. Ignoring a solid month of training camp and preseason play that strongly indicates that, because he ran a tenth of a second slower than you'd like at his pro day, is just dumb.

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My God, do you read what I write?
Where did I say his 40 time rules him out of playing in the NFL?
Where do I say he lacks the athleticism to play in the NFL?
I have made NUMEROUS posts stating that this is a weakness and all players have weaknesses and this is one he must overcome.
I have also said over and over that he has not played enough to determine if he has the skillset to make it as an NFL corner.

I disagree that he has STRONGLY proven anything. I was not as impressed with his play vs Washington as you, and even if I were, its not enough to make him a lock or put him ahead of Dennard.

AndyJohnson said:

You seem to not really understand this.
Compared to corners Butler is slow. He is also short.
Being short is not something that prevents him from being a corner, but it is certainly something that makes it more difficult.
Butlers speed is an issue. Of course slower corners have been successful, but how in the world you are comparing him to Ty Law at this point is beyond comprehension to me.
Butler seems to have questionable size, speed, and experience to make it as an NFL corner. People got all excited because he looked OK DUE TO the surprise that he actually could.
For him to make it as an NFL corner and overcome the speed and size issues, he will have to have excellent skills, and its silly to assume he has proven that yet.
I don't know why you feel compelled to act as if his weaknesses do not exist.

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When did 5'11 become short for a CB? Now you're just making stuff up.

shmessy said:

You did.

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No I did not.
This is the problem, you are arguing against what you want to argue against rather than what I am saying.
I said he is slow for a corner. I explained in great detail how that is a weakness, but one that can be overcome with other strengths. I never said he was too slow to play in the NFL.

shmessy said:

Arrington or Ryan...

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...or Harmon.