How has Jake Bequette been doing?

james87654 said:

i have been watching him very intently all camp and I'm pretty sure he's gonna "pop" this season....we're finally gonna have that pas rush we've wanted

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ausbacker said:

The Patriots blow draft picks and they hit on draft picks. Stop being silly.

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There's only so many spots on a team and there is a salary cap to think of. I don't think the Patriots subscribe to your pick the "best" players in order, no matter what other considerations there are.

AZ Pats fans post is instructive.

AzPatsFan said:

Belichick actually answered this exact question in a Press Conference one time. He said in effect:

"You can't gamble with First Round picks. If your wrong you set your program back too far, though some do. So I have to gamble with Second and even more with Third rounders to attempt to equalize the cumulative effect of always drafting toward the end of the round, that the League imposes to equalize talent. As with all gambles, sometimes you win, sometimes you must be prepared to lose."

That was one of those occasional very illuminating philosophical discussion questions that along with history of the League, that Belichick allows himself to answer. He does so only because they can provide not even the remotest possibility of an advantage to his opposing Coaches.

Commenters even speculated that was one of the reasons the Patriots maintain their own college draft scouting system, and do not rely on the National scouting services that many teams use. He is looking for the overlooked talents, or unique situations, that he can exploit in other rounds.

History tends to bear out his actions. In the BB era, the Patriots have never outright failed with a FIrst round selection, although some have not produced as much as hoped.

Meanwhile I do not accept your revisionist history that the Belichick Patriots are poor drafters. It is more than luck, it is talented players selected that have made them 10+ game winners for the last decade and a half.

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When you make absolute statements, you could be wrong. George Allen took a floundering Redskins team and won a championship amid 7 winning seasons in a row by trading all his top picks for veterans.

I'm not suggesting it, but he certainly had more success than teams who had top ten picks in every round and did nothing with them. Most of those picks were undoubtedly "hits" for somebody, in that they played in the league for years because they were talent the Patriots would never be in position to draft.

My Sig is a sign in the Patriots locker room and collecting draft picks is not their intent. I seriously don't think they care if they fill a position with a player who performs better than the draft pick they had hoped would do it, whether he's a UDFA or a street free agent, higher priced FA or lower draft pick. They trade away picks some years (Randy Moss draft) and draft a ton in different years they've stockpiled.

RayClay said:

There's only so many spots on a team and there is a salary cap to think of. I don't think the Patriots subscribe to your pick the "best" players in order, no matter what other considerations there are.

AZ Pats fans post is instructive.

When you make absolute statements, you could be wrong. George Allen took a floundering Redskins team and won a championship amid 7 winning seasons in a row by trading all his top picks for veterans.

I'm not suggesting it, but he certainly had more success than teams who had top ten picks in every round and did nothing with them. Most of those picks were undoubtedly "hits" for somebody, in that they played in the league for years because they were talent the Patriots would never be in position to draft.

My Sig is a sign in the Patriots locker room and collecting draft picks is not their intent. I seriously don't think they care if they fill a position with a player who performs better than the draft pick they had hoped would do it, whether he's a UDFA or a street free agent, higher priced FA or lower draft pick. They trade away picks some years (Randy Moss draft) and draft a ton in different years they've stockpiled.

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@RayClay with the greatest respect, I agree with your position but nothing you have forwarded changes the fact that New England appears to blow draft picks as much as they succeed. Outside of a Christmas miracle, Bequette is a going to be a bust and another waste of a decent draft pick.

The discussion about team building (for the record, I agree with what you're saying) can be had elsewhere.

ausbacker said:

@RayClay with the greatest respect, I agree with your position but nothing you have forwarded changes the fact that New England appears to blow draft picks as much as they succeed. Outside of a Christmas miracle, Bequette is a going to be a bust and another waste of a decent draft pick.

The discussion about team building (for the record, I agree with what you're saying) can be had elsewhere.

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It does if you accept the fact, as BB has stated (I believe AZPatsfans recollection) that he offsets the low position in each round by gambling for players that could be busts or bargains. Take the case of Vollmer. The guy arrived in Houston as a tight end who barely spoke English. He later had back surgery.

BB could have picked a lineman who had a #58 grade (barely out of the third round) and got a low 2nd, high 3rd grade lineman. He gambled and got a first round talent. He's gambled and lost. I don't think he sees the draft as a matter of hits and busts, but as an overall strategy to get the best players with less than the best picks and accepting some injury risk, flawed player busts.

In years where there are lots of holes, he has used lots of picks and taken less risk. The bottom line is, we usually don't have a lot of spots to fill and we always have salary cap restrictions (meaning we need to hit on some UDFAs).

If we "hit" on every pick, according to other teams boards and our draftnik posters, we'll inevitably be picking good players for other teams, because we'll have to cut some, in favor of current veterans, or even UDFA who outplay their salaries.

BB traded up to draft Jones higher than the consensus (still a low rounder) and took a flyer on Bequette's upside. He hit on the first, which he thinks is crucial, and missed on the low third (5 picks out of the fourth round).

We later hit on Buchanan at 226. If he makes it, or a veteran like Smith or Andre Carter, or a small schooler like Zach Moore, or a bounced around free agent like Ninkovich, does it matter?

I really don't think it does, and I believe that's BB's philosophy also.

RayClay said:

We later hit on Buchanan at 226. If he makes it, or a veteran like Smith or Andre Carter, or a small schooler like Zach Moore, or a bounced around free agent like Ninkovich, does it matter? I really don't think it does, and I believe that's BB's philosophy also.

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As the lottery promoters advertise, You can't win if you don't play"

RayClay said:

Are you saying that's what the Patriots have done? While picking at the bottom of every round?

By the way, though I don't believe in absolutes and it was pre-salary cap, you might want to look up George Allen.

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I lived in DC during the George Allen period. Jack Kent Cook, the Redskins owner, said that George Allen was given an unlimited budget, and exceeded it his first year; and it only grew every year thereafter. He acquired them,especially guys who played their entire careers for losers, and gave them an opportunity to win.

Allen was somewhat like Belichick. He believed he could win with only good not necessarily great players, as long as it was a team without holes. Allen like Belichick is ruthless with older vets. He lauded his vets as the "Over the Hill Gang". But when they started to lose it, sentimentality be damned; he cut their asses without so much as a tear.

Plus he had a whole league to use as he was the only one doing what he was doing. Those who tried to copycat were too sentimental; and he was ruthlessly realistic about what a vet was today, not memories. He even traded picks he didn't have, if he had a hole that needed filling.

His methods don't work anymore. The CAP wouldn't let him afford the oldsters, and the League would prevent him dealing the same pick to two teams.

BTW... the example of Vollmer was particularly apt. Beatty was the unanimous consensus LOT 2nd rounder available. Belichick passed over him to "reach for Vollmer". The very next pick the Giants snatched up Beatty, to wide acclaim by scouts and Draftniks.

Beatty played for a couple of years as a good second rounder, but never reached the heights Vollmer did as a mere rook.

AzPatsFan said:

As the lottery promoters advertise, You can't win if you don't play"


I lived in DC during the George Allen period. Jack Kent Cook, the Redskins owner, said that George Allen was given an unlimited budget, and exceeded it his first year; and it only grew every year thereafter. He acquired them,especially guys who played their entire careers for losers, and gave them an opportunity to win.

Allen was somewhat like Belichick. He believed he could win with only good not necessarily great players, as long as it was a team without holes. Allen like Belichick is ruthless with older vets. He lauded his vets as the "Over the Hill Gang". But when they started to lose it, sentimentality be damned; he cut their asses without so much as a tear.

Plus he had a whole league to use as he was the only one doing what he was doing. Those who tried to copycat were too sentimental; and he was ruthlessly realistic about what a vet was today, not memories. He even traded picks he didn't have, if he had a hole that needed filling.

His methods don't work anymore. The CAP wouldn't let him afford the oldsters, and the League would prevent him dealing the same pick to two teams.

BTW... the example of Vollmer was particularly apt. Beatty was the unanimous consensus LOT 2nd rounder available. Belichick passed over him to "reach for Vollmer". The very next pick the Giants snatched up Beatty, to wide acclaim by scouts and Draftniks.

Beatty played for a couple of years as a good second rounder, but never reached the heights Vollmer did as a mere rook.

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Of course what he did was unorthodox but, as you stated, he was the only one doing it, so probably got good value.

Belichick has used a ton of picks, has used very few picks, traded up, traded down, often used lots of 6's and 7's and always ran through lots of UDFAs and street free agents depending on the talent already on the team and the salary cap position.

This variable approach has made him by far the most successful coach/GM of the era.

RayClay said:

Of course what he did was unorthodox but, as you stated, he was the only one doing it, so probably got good value.

Belichick has used a ton of picks, has used very few picks, traded up, traded down, often used lots of 6's and 7's and always ran through lots of UDFAs and street free agents depending on the talent already on the team and the salary cap position.

This variable approach has made him by far the most successful coach/GM of the era.

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Ehh.... You're shading everything. Tom Brady has made BB the most successful coach of the era. The GM issue is pretty clearly an open debate.

Deus Irae said:

Ehh.... You're shading everything. Tom Brady has made BB the most successful coach of the era. The GM issue is pretty clearly an open debate.

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And 2008?

RayClay said:

And 2008?

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What about it?

Deus Irae said:

Ehh.... You're shading everything. Tom Brady has made BB the most successful coach of the era. The GM issue is pretty clearly an open debate.

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The Proof of the pudding, is in the eating. You. are. wrong.

AzPatsFan said:

The Proof of the pudding, is in the eating. You. are. wrong.

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Your post makes absolutely no sense, at all.

Deus Irae said:

What about it?

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Ur not an idiot Deus. You know exactly "what" about it. Stop playing games.

2008 with Cassell (the guy who hadn't started a game since high school) not TB as QB winning 11 games in a division at the time who had three 11 game winning teams. Pretty impressive.

This isn't a Polian - Manning scenario. So don't play it off as one.

You also realize the point he is trying to make is that without TB, BB has done pretty well as well. To which someone (probably you) would counter... yes but not as well as with Brady and so on. Undoubtedly having (IMO) the best qb ever helps the coach. Just like having a great coach helps make you the best QB.

BTW it was BB who took the chance on TB in the draft... and then another by keeping him on the roster with 4 QB's. Give the man some credit where it is due. Even after being drafted... it's pretty easy for a novice coach to say 4th QB on the roster... I'd rather have this LB who will help me every game with Special teams.

In saying that I am pretty sure you just like to argue with people. Good for you but this argument is years old and boring.

RE the draft: you have the direct quote from BB about the difficulties of drafting late every round. You have his record with 1st round picks. You also have his overall draft record misses included. There are many on here who are the best drafters in the world with 20/20 hindsight. But they also seem to completely forget all of their misses which is super convenient. I am very happy with his record drafting talent so i will leave it at that.

Deus Irae said:

Your post makes absolutely no sense, at all.

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Sorry Charlie Tuna. You stepped too deep into the Doggie Do this time. While Brady may have produced a Top 5 Offense with only 2 First round picks, and a handful of other good picks, including himself. But they were all picked by Bill, and yes including Brady, the GOAT QB. GM BB created and selected that Offense that produced with Brady.

But BB has lately busied himself creating a Defense that started to breakout last season, only to see it disrupted with injuries to numerous Probowl players. It will surprise no Pats fan when it leaps to prominence this season and completes Bill's second construction of a dynastic type winner. GM BB has selected 8 First rounders and 15 top picks, while assembling that creation.

The Team as a whole was created by GM BB, not Brady, and includes Tom himself as a BB selection. Belichick has selected the good players, organized the scouts, created the organization, selected the good assistant coaches, and even selected the best Head Coach extant, namely himself.

That is NOT debateable at all.

Bill is a great coach. As a gm he could have done a little better job since 2005. I'm not saying he should go by national draft resources but he could maybe use them as a jumping off point. His system has got a couple flaws. Drafted about 20 DBs in last 10 drafts and our starting corners are free agent signings. The FS is very good and maybe special but resulted from a corner struggling and getting beat often. The SS position is unsettled,and not because the guys competing for it have all shown superior talent making it a tough decision. We are hoping one steps up and plays serviceably. Between a pair of round 2 picks and a Round 3 draft pick.

james87654 said:

i have been watching him very intently all camp and I'm pretty sure he's gonna "pop" this season....we're finally gonna have that pas rush we've wanted

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How do you "pop" in the unemployment line?

These discussions are always interesting in that there is no comparison to other teams, just an assumption that BB pales in comparison to how other teams draft, while no evidence is offered..

As posters are we to believe that BB sucks as a GM because there have been some draft misses??? Every team has mixed results from the draft, but no team has had 13 winning seasons in a row in the salary cap era... that is what that matters.

We appear to be moving from a offensively heavy team, to more of a defensive team and have been reallocating assets, this may be the harbinger of the post Brady era...

this argument above me is why i desperately want to see BB coach well beyond Brady......which i think he will.....and then i'll find out the answer

james87654 said:

this argument above me is why i desperately want to see BB coach well beyond Brady......which i think he will.....and then i'll find out the answer

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me too, watch him have another great QB and everyone will say oh he just got lucky twice in a row

Bequette is just another one of Belichick's blunders. The Patriots are good at wheeling and dealing, and moving around the draft board, but they're average at best when selecting players.