7/27 - practus interuptus

Marinlik said:

I've seen loads of people who have tried a bunch of diets but haven't lost any weight. They usually complain and say that the problem is entirely out of their control. But in most cases that I've seen the problem is entirely in their control. Take my mom and her husband for example. They have tried a bunch of methods, but they are fat. For the same reason that a lot of other people are who have tried these diets and failed. They still eat enough for 2 persons each. They don't work out much either. Sure they golf and have dogs that they take for long walks. But after each golf round they eat some kind of unhealthy thing. A cake or candy. So basically all they burnt on the golf goes right back on that candy. These are people that when you ask them say that they've tried all the diets and none of them works.

I've seen loads of people that claim that nothing works. But the main reason is that they eat for 2 people and they still eat snacks when they are on diet. But it's much harder to accept that you have a problem than it is to say that the problem is entirely out of your control. Millions of people fail at diets because they eat way to much and they aren't motivated enough to actually stick to the diet at all times.

As I said in an earlier post. Loosing a lot of weight isn't a temporary change. It's a life change.

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I have seen the same thing. Heavy eaters cheat on the diet, then blame the diet. My father was an athlete who loved to eat. When it was time to work all day and raise a family and be exhausted by 9:00 the absence of exercise caused him to gain weight. He was always on a diet and never lost weight. The biggest running joke in the family was that he would sneak food (snacks, ice cream, leftovers, etc) and we would catch him and he would say 'don't tell your mother'.
He loved to eat, and he died at an incredibly young age because of it. My mother once said she never realized that she was killing him by feeding him. I guarantee the extra 20-30 years he would have gotten by sticking to any diet would have been more worth it to him that the enjoyment he got from eating. And I guarantee we all would have kicked his ass about cheating on the diets if we really understood the consequences.

JR4 said:

I've seen lot of diets that advocate low carbs or low fat or high protein. The thing is
we need carbs, we need fat and we need proteins. Eliminate too much fat and you risk
not being able to process fat soluble vitamins, too few carbs and your body won't have the
energy it needs and may start breaking down it's own proteins for energy especially if can't
break down fat. Too much protein and there are side effects like kidney issues.
The side effects of not having enough of something may not show up for years. Like you may
not see premature aging until it happens because you didn't get enough fat soluble vitamin E.

IMO, the Best diet is a balanced diet.
"The Insulin Resistance Diet" book found on amazon.com is worth reading.

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Seems pretty reasonable. I will say though that most whole plant foods contain some fat - so the concern of being fat deficient (in a calorie adequate diet) shouldnt really exist. The nice thing is that the vitamins are packed in the same plant as the related oil to allow for absorption.
Excess protein and its impact is definitely an issue - and will continue to be so with Paleo/Atkins being pushed so hard by the meat and dairy industries.

Marinlik said:

I've seen loads of people who have tried a bunch of diets but haven't lost any weight. They usually complain and say that the problem is entirely out of their control. But in most cases that I've seen the problem is entirely in their control. Take my mom and her husband for example. They have tried a bunch of methods, but they are fat. For the same reason that a lot of other people are who have tried these diets and failed. They still eat enough for 2 persons each. They don't work out much either. Sure they golf and have dogs that they take for long walks. But after each golf round they eat some kind of unhealthy thing. A cake or candy. So basically all they burnt on the golf goes right back on that candy. These are people that when you ask them say that they've tried all the diets and none of them works.

I've seen loads of people that claim that nothing works. But the main reason is that they eat for 2 people and they still eat snacks when they are on diet. But it's much harder to accept that you have a problem than it is to say that the problem is entirely out of your control. Millions of people fail at diets because they eat way to much and they aren't motivated enough to actually stick to the diet at all times.

As I said in an earlier post. Loosing a lot of weight isn't a temporary change. It's a life change.

Click to expand...

yup ... you are seeing people who have tried and at one time they may have even ate healthy but
it didn't work. People may snack when on diets because they are not getting what they need. They may
eat a lot but if metabolic doors do not open because of some hormone malfunction they don't get
what they need so they eat more. Yes Life change is needed but many can't make the change because
of the such obstacles to overcome. Over time overeating then becomes a habit which becomes more
an obstacle. Have compassion for your Mom and her Husband. What they are dealing with may
seem it's under their control but there may be obstacles they can't overcome.

JR4 said:

yup ... you are seeing people who have tried and at one time they may have even ate healthy but
it didn't work. People may snack when on diets because they are not getting what they need. They may
eat a lot but if metabolic doors do not open because of some hormone malfunction they don't get
what they need so they eat more. Yes Life change is needed but many can't make the change because
of the such obstacles to overcome. Over time overeating then becomes a habit which becomes more
an obstacle. Have compassion for your Mom and her Husband. What they are dealing with may
seem it's under their control but there may be obstacles they can't overcome.

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You are ignoring the fact that people overeat because food is enjoyable.
Sure they don't want to be fat, but they don't want to not enjoy the cookie even more.
If they ate 50 lbs of carrots a week because they couldn't get full that would indicate a metabolism problem. Eating doughnuts, cookies, cake, potato chips and ice cream indicates they enjoy eating those foods more than they dislike being overweight.

AndyJohnson said:

You are ignoring the fact that people overeat because food is enjoyable.
Sure they don't want to be fat, but they don't want to not enjoy the cookie even more.
If they ate 50 lbs of carrots a week because they couldn't get full that would indicate a metabolism problem. Eating doughnuts, cookies, cake, potato chips and ice cream indicates they enjoy eating those foods more than they dislike being overweight.

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There may be other factors at play here.

Some eating disorders are psychological- either compensatory or a matter of self-image.

I would think that the first step in eliminating harmful habits is self-respect, caring enough about oneself to envision long term health care.

I used to think that old people were frail, stooped, and shuffling because that was simply old age.

I now realize that it's because they didn't take care of themselves, physically or mentally.

Both my parents are in their late 70's and they still play tennis.

AndyJohnson said:

.......

You still have not answered the question I asked before. Are you really saying that the majority of the overweight people in America are not overweight because they overeat?

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"Are you really saying that the majority of the overweight people in America are not overweight because they overeat"

There are People who don't care about diets and are overweight because they overeat.
There are People who diet and stick to it but give up over time because they don't lose
the weight or get tired of being hungry all the time and then overeat.
So in this simplistic point view --- ALL overweight people overeat.
That's my answer.

The thing is many people could just forget about diets and just eat healthy and lose weight if
their metabolic issues could be resolved. Also no matter what they do, diets, will power etc as long as they have a metabolic issue they will become overweight.

PP2 said:

There may be other factors at play here.

Some eating disorders are psychological- either compensatory or a matter of self-image.

I would think that the first step in eliminating harmful habits is self-respect, caring enough about oneself to envision long term health care.

I used to think that old people were frail, stooped, and shuffling because that was simply old age.

I now realize that it's because they didn't take care of themselves, physically or mentally.

Both my parents are in their late 70's and they still play tennis.

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No doubt there are issues such as you mention. My point is that this started with a comment that burning more calories than you ingest is not a good weight loss plan and of course it is and of course there are exceptions.
The number of people who fit the example being used of metabolic dysfunction is less than the number who remain overweight because they are in denial that they have the power to change that with discipline, good eating habits and commitment to whatever nutrition plan they choose.

JR4 said:

"Are you really saying that the majority of the overweight people in America are not overweight because they overeat"

There are People who don't care about diets and are overweight because they overeat.
There are People who diet and stick to it but give up over time because they don't lose
the weight or get tired of being hungry all the time and then overeat.
So in this simplistic point view --- ALL overweight people overeat.
That's my answer.

The thing is many people could just forget about diets and just eat healthy and lose weight if
their metabolic issues could be resolved. Also no matter what they do, diets, will power etc as long as they have a metabolic issue they will become overweight.

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You seem to not understand the meaning of diet.
Diet is what your eating habits are not a short term gimmick to lose weight.
I think this is where you go off the rails. Of course people who look at a diet Asa short term sacrifice before they go back to their old habits will always fail.
That's not metabolism it's poor eating habits and the mistaken belief that a short term change will be meaningful.

4 words: Eat less, exercise more.

If you deny yourself something you enjoy you will eventually slip back into bad habits. So go ahead and have a slice or 2 of pizza, just don't have 5. Then go for a run, walk, hike or bike ride. Whatever you prefer. IMO this is the only sustainable weight management plan.

This thread took a strange turn.

Above is a trailer from the documentary Food matters. You can watch the full documentary via netflix streaming if you subscribe to netflix. There are other outlets to rent or buy it from as well if you don't have netflix

Small synopsis about the movie from this site http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/food-matters/

"Food Matters sets about uncovering the trillion dollar worldwide sickness industry and gives people some scientifically verifiable solutions for overcoming illness naturally. In what promises to be the most contentious idea put forward, the filmmakers have interviewed several leading experts in nutrition and natural healing who claim that not only are we harming our bodies with improper nutrition, but that the right kind of foods, supplements and detoxification can be used to treat chronic illnesses as fatal as terminally diagnosed cancer.

The focus of the film is in helping us rethink the belief systems fed to us by our modern medical and health care establishments. The interviewees point out that not every problem requires costly, major medical attention and reveal many alternative therapies that can be more effective, more economical, less harmful and less invasive than conventional medical treatments."



My take: This is an excellent documentary about food, diet, vitamins, the pharmaceutical industry etc

Some people are too busy eating highly processed nutrient deficient foods. In addition, some people turn to a magic pill/medication for almost every little alignment that person may have. This documentary stresses that food is the real medicine so to speak and that if you put the right foods in your body than you will get good results.

For instance, one of the things the movie talks about is how the drugs companies run tests and trails on its medications. But those tests and trials are run and funded for by the drug companies themselves and then the results are sent to the FDA. Where the FDA will often base their approval or denial of a drug on the trials and tests which are run by the drug companies themselves. Therefore making the FDA not as unbiased as some may think.

Anyways I highly recommend watching the movie. It's very eye opening and educational.

AndyJohnson said:

No doubt there are issues such as you mention. My point is that this started with a comment that burning more calories than you ingest is not a good weight loss plan and of course it is and of course there are exceptions.
The number of people who fit the example being used of metabolic dysfunction is less than the number who remain overweight because they are in denial that they have the power to change that with discipline, good eating habits and commitment to whatever nutrition plan they choose.

Click to expand...

JR4 said:

yup ... you are seeing people who have tried and at one time they may have even ate healthy but
it didn't work. People may snack when on diets because they are not getting what they need. They may
eat a lot but if metabolic doors do not open because of some hormone malfunction they don't get
what they need so they eat more. Yes Life change is needed but many can't make the change because
of the such obstacles to overcome. Over time overeating then becomes a habit which becomes more
an obstacle. Have compassion for your Mom and her Husband. What they are dealing with may
seem it's under their control but there may be obstacles they can't overcome.

Click to expand...

Come one now. I was fat a couple of years ago too because I ate way to much. Then I started controling my portions and I lost weight. Now I eat half of what I ate when I was fat and I don't get hungry for several hours after I eat. They eat a lot because they like food.

I know you want to think that all people are so wonderful and try as much as they can, but problems are out of their control. But milions upon milions of people are fat because they eat to much and don't have the motivation to eat less. Not because of metabolic doors. You have no idea what you are talking about. These are people that wheren't fat when they here young. Moms husband was a runner that was very healthy. But when he stopped running he didn't cut down the portions as much as he needed.

Most people that are fat are fat because they eat way more than they should. They also aren't motivated enough to change their life style and eat what a healthy person should eat. Sure, a few have metabolism problem. But the vast majority is fat because they eat unhealthy. Sure they might think they need to eat that much to be full. But if they start to cut down their portions they will notice that they will start getting full when eating less.

well golly gee willikers this thread has gone off course......i suppose i can contribute

on a serious note.....i wish the best of health to those with previous and/or current problems

To those trying out a new diet, best advice I can give is to make sure you incorporate a cheat day in their. Just one day a week. Its actually good for both the mind and body....

Food is a guilty pleasure some times. If your dieting good, and kicking ass in the gym all week, go ahead and pig out on Sunday. Consider that your reward for yourself.

As long as you get right back on track with your diet/workout the next day, you'll be fine.

I'm a science guy. But if someone like Joker has found a lifestyle that works for them and that they can make permanent, then the pragmatic engineer in me says Just Do It! Who cares if some minor parts of the livable lifestyle are not scientific or are just mumbo jumbo, as long as you don't have negative medical side effects, you're good. Different combos for different bodies.

Biology is not physics. We're not identical particles. Different food combos work for different people because of complex, not yet accurately understood by science interactions. I seriously doubt that science has found the most correct models as yet, so we're best to work with medical professionals and overlay our own experience to accept what's advised while rejecting advice we've found as contraindicative.

The bottom line is that at the aggregate bodies must follow the laws of physics regarding energy. We eat to fuel our bodies with energy and consume energy by movement and even just heating our bodies in cold nights. So if we're gaining weight we're taking in more than we'e expending. Working either end, consuming less and/or expending more energy addresses this. That's the physics part.

I'm older and had to transition at 59 from calorie burning b-ball to gym workouts. Gym was always part of staying in shape for b-ball, but now it's the only thing especially since arthritis in both ankles (Drs wanted ankle pinned when I was 50, and other Drs since, bad advice I blew off) has cut out kickboxing. My big problem arose when I retired and started the 5PM geezer wine or ****tail habit like my buddies. Had to drop that cold for weeknights and will go further if I don't converge on my target. I'm lucky I have a wide shoulder frame but I still need to drop another 6-8 LBS belly fat so wife doesn't leave me & wreck Brady's marriage. It's all informed and individual lifestyle choices.

PatsWickedPissah said:

I'm a science guy. But if someone like Joker has found a lifestyle that works for them and that they can make permanent, then the pragmatic engineer in me says Just Do It! Who cares if some minor parts of the livable lifestyle are not scientific or are just mumbo jumbo, as long as you don't have negative medical side effects, you're good. Different combos for different bodies.

Biology is not physics. We're not identical particles. Different food combos work for different people because of complex, not yet accurately understood by science interactions. I seriously doubt that science has found the most correct models as yet, so we're best to work with medical professionals and overlay our own experience to accept what's advised while rejecting advice we've found as contraindicative.

The bottom line is that at the aggregate bodies must follow the laws of physics regarding energy. We eat to fuel our bodies with energy and consume energy by movement and even just heating our bodies in cold nights. So if we're gaining weight we're taking in more than we'e expending. Working either end, consuming less and/or expending more energy addresses this. That's the physics part.

I'm older and had to transition at 59 from calorie burning b-ball to gym workouts. Gym was always part of staying in shape for b-ball, but now it's the only thing especially since arthritis in both ankles (Drs wanted ankle pinned when I was 50, and other Drs since, bad advice I blew off) has cut out kickboxing. My big problem arose when I retired and started the 5PM geezer wine or ****tail habit like my buddies. Had to drop that cold for weeknights and will go further if I don't converge on my target. I'm lucky I have a wide shoulder frame but I still need to drop another 6-8 LBS belly fat so wife doesn't leave me & wreck Brady's marriage. It's all informed and individual lifestyle choices.

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I think all of us are happy for him, we just want him to know it's not the 'Eastern' aspect of his doctor that is doing work. We are adamant about this because if he does start getting into serious health problems we don't want him to waste time with 'Eastern' solutions like Steve Jobs.

I'm very proud of my man Joker.

I'm pretty proud of the man Pissah.

I'm not at all proud of Mav4.

Read the last Bio of Jobs. Great book. The guy did kill himself by ignoring Drs advice by going Eastern diet at 1st and not having the operation on his pancreas until it spread and was too late. I think there may well be still yet unverified by science metabolic benefits from some ancient practices but I'm not up for being the guinea pig. If I were Joker & it was working for me, the engineer in me would stay with it, although the engineer could not resist messing with trial elimination of some aspects one at a time to see if things changed.

I've taken MSM for my ankle since age 50. Dropped it 3 different times for several months including over last winter and severe pain returned. I'm now done with these experiments. Don't care if it's a placebo. My pragmatic GP Doctor & I have read the studies saying it really doesn't show proof of efficacy, but he says he has a significant minority of patients whose input he trusts who swear by it, so if it works for you, do it.

Glycemic load is what counts and most fruits and vegetables are fine given their vitamin content etc. Eat the skin of fruits and potatoes.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Glycemic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods.htm

Eat whole foods and whole grains, grill, steam and otherwise avoid frying. Use Olive oil or other healthy oils.

You can fill up at every meal and lose weight, and, more importantly, be healthy. Mrs. Dash products kick ass, especially the chicken grilling rub.

Great guide to healthy foods and preparation.

http://whfoods.org/