7/27 - practus interuptus

JR4 said:

A couple of hundred calories of fruits which have a low glycemic index that are fine to eat slowly such
as RAW(no sugar added) raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, grapefruit etc.
High glycemic index include fruits like watermelon, apricots , dates etc

High glycemic index fruits spike your insulin and cause problems.
Good fruits are needed for a healthy body.

Click to expand...

I'm not huge fruit fan just because its a quick energy burst and not sustaining so I agree in general. Glycemic index is a little dicey in general as tons a great foods are high glycemic and are essential. Just because something is low or high glycemic doesnt necessarily equate to good or bad nutrition. Fatty meat is low glycemic but obviously not the best health choice.

Position statement of the American Diabetic Association14

“In subjects with type 2 diabetes, studies of 2–12 weeks duration comparing low glycemic index and high glycemic index diets report no consistent improvements in HbA1c, fructosamine, or insulin levels. The effects on lipids from low glycemic index diets compared with high glycemic index diets are mixed.”

AndyJohnson said:

There are more than 2 classes of overweight people, including those that wish they weren't overweight but do not have the discipline and commitment to eat healthy.
Trying a diet and not sticking to it is not a medical issue it is a choice.

You seem to want to assume that people are not overweight because of their choices.
The fact that people try diets and EVENTUALLY fail is more an issue of commitment and willpower than the fact that if they follow it, it still won't work.
Your analogies are terrible. Not eating the Big Mac is not a physical limitation.

But just so I understand, you are saying that the majority of the overweight people in America are overweight because they practice good discipline in dieting, but it fails, not because they choose to eat for pleasure?

Click to expand...

"Trying a diet and not sticking to it is not a medical issue it is a choice"
How long do think our 5'6 jumper will keep jumping if he can't get the desired result?
How long will a dieter keep trying when they feel hungry all the time and and see no
real progress?

Yes it is a choice which comes after the underlying metabolic issues hits the dieter in the face over
and over until they finally give up. Then they get to add guilt feelings because of people like you who say.... it was your choice!

My 5'6 analogy is spot on. You are right Not eating the Big Mac is not a physical limitation,
but a metabolic issue is a physical limitation for a dieter like the 5'6 height is a
physical limitation for the basketball player.

What I am saying is that overweight people who diet and exercise but give up because they make
no progress or feel hungry most of time may likely have a metabolic issue and they need
the right kind of medical help, someone who understands what new science is showing us.

Horace's Ivories said:

I'm not huge fruit fan just because its a quick energy burst and not sustaining so I agree in general. Glycemic index is a little dicey in general as tons a great foods are high glycemic and are essential. Just because something is low or high glycemic doesnt necessarily equate to good or bad nutrition. Fatty meat is low glycemic but obviously not the best health choice.

Position statement of the American Diabetic Association14

“In subjects with type 2 diabetes, studies of 2–12 weeks duration comparing low glycemic index and high glycemic index diets report no consistent improvements in HbA1c, fructosamine, or insulin levels. The effects on lipids from low glycemic index diets compared with high glycemic index diets are mixed.”

Click to expand...

Thanks Horace good info. I was advocating low glycemic index foods for people NOT yet type 2 diabetic
and trying to control weight issues. Eating high glycemic index foods spikes insulin levels. High insulin
levels means more body fat.

6'3" 161 for a BMI of 20.1 (yeah I calculated it)
I'm 18 now and when I was younger I used to be a small chubby kid. I have no idea how much I weighed but I stopped having desserts, cut down on the soda, and even took up golf. One of the key things to weight loss is a positive attitude and motivation. I believe Andy Johnson touched on the subject a little bit when he talked about emotion. Andy has been pretty much spot on with all the topics he covered, especially when he said that people's diets that fail are a case of people not putting in effort and commitment. I'm not sure how we got on this subject, but there are some great things to take away from this conversation and I really hope that people read through this whole thread even though the original topic may have been sidetracked.

AndyJohnson said:

I think the point actually is DO SOMETHING. I like the low carb method because it allows me to eat the foods I like the most and really not limit quantities. I lose about 30 lbs in 30 days doing that. Problem is the effects level off, and then (over a long period of time usually) if you don't replace it with something else you gain it back.
The real key isn't short term loss, but long term, and to do that you have to change habits.
Here is a silly example.
My office used to have a candy machine and it was taken away.
I used to get a candy bar every day, sometimes 2. I am 100% certain that having it or not was not a function of hunger. I would have eaten the same food the rest of the day whether I had it or not.
A candy bar has roughly 200 calaories, and 3500 calories equals a pound. In a year, 250 work days, 250 candy bars is 50,000 calories. Had they taken the candy machine away a year earlier, I would weigh 15 lbs less. If you apply that thinking to your eating habits, by choosing salad instead of potatoes, using portion control as you say, or skipping desert, OVER TIME you will end up consistently at a better weight.

Click to expand...

It's also important to understand that for you to loose weight, and keep that new weight you have to change your life style. A lot of people seems to think that they can just go back to their old ways after they have lost weight. But then they get fat again. You where fat because what you ate wasn't good for you. You can't go back to eating that again after loosing weight or you will go right back there. If I where to start eating as much as I did before then I would be really fat again. It's not a temporal change, it's a permanent change.

I prefer portion control over other kinds of diet because I can still eat what I want. I can eat pasta with a tomato sauce, or with a creamy Gorgonzola sauce. Or I can make a really good hamburger with cheese and bacon, a salad or maybe a pizza. I don't have to count calories or skip some food I really love.

Some people say that loosing weight is very hard for them "because of reasons that they can't control". But it's often that these people eat much more than they should. So it's entirely in their control. Portion control helps because it isn't very hard. It's extremely easy. Just put that plate on a scale and put your food there.

JR4 said:

Thanks Horace good info. I was advocating low glycemic index foods for people NOT yet type 2 diabetic
and trying to control weight issues. Eating high glycemic index foods spikes insulin levels. High insulin
levels means more body fat.

Click to expand...

Agreed Jr -on a side note this is what I do - I feel for folks that battle with food and weight issues - my wife and I have been consulting and promoting a high carb, low fat diet for about 10 years - both certified in methods presented by Drs, Campbell, Essylstyn, McDougall and Barnard. We've had unreal results for people that can stay with it. I am happy to provide help to anyone on the forum who would like some more info - just PM me. ( or just check out a few books by any of these authors - they are all saying the same thing more or less)

JR4 said:

"Trying a diet and not sticking to it is not a medical issue it is a choice"
How long do think our 5'6 jumper will keep jumping if he can't get the desired result?
How long will a dieter keep trying when they feel hungry all the time and and see no
real progress?

Click to expand...

The analogy stinks. The 5'6 guy cannot grow. The overweight guy can choose to eat healthy, eat less, deal with feeling hungry. Ever diet includes having to overcome feeling hungry.

Yes it is a choice which comes after the underlying metabolic issues hits the dieter in the face over
and over until they finally give up. Then they get to add guilt feelings because of people like you who say.... it was your choice!

Click to expand...

Or they just feel like a bowl of ice cream. Or they go out and choose a chesseburger instead of a salad.
Or they dip their carrots in ranch dressing, etc, etc.
You cannot seriously tell me you do not think there are people who are overweight because they eat for enjoyment.

My 5'6 analogy is spot on. You are right Not eating the Big Mac is not a physical limitation,
but a metabolic issue is a physical limitation for a dieter like the 5'6 height is a
physical limitation for the basketball player.

Click to expand...

Its about the worst analogy ever.
Why wouldn't your guy with the metabolic issue choose healthier food? Because it doesn't taste as good.

What I am saying is that overweight people who diet and exercise but give up because they make
no progress or feel hungry most of time may likely have a metabolic issue and they need
the right kind of medical help, someone who understands what new science is showing us.

Click to expand...

I have agreed to that, but you want to use it to excuse the personal decisions that lead to being overweight. If you are limiting your remarks to people who try hard to lose weight, eat right, and exercise, that is a small percentage of the overweight people, and why would you be excusing the ones who eat McDonalds?
I have no doubt that, like many poor issues, there are a small percentage of people that are overweight that have an affliction keeping them from being able to lose weight like everyone else.
That is the exception not the rule, and my point has been that when you respond to a conversation about how to lose weight by essentially saying overweight people do everything right but are all afflicted with a condition that prevents them from losing weight, you are enabling poor eating habits and dismissing reality.
I don't have whatever metabolism issue you seem to be applying to every overweight person in America but I guarantee you if I spent a year eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted I would gain 100 lbs.

Marinlik said:

It's also important to understand that for you to loose weight, and keep that new weight you have to change your life style. A lot of people seems to think that they can just go back to their old ways after they have lost weight. But then they get fat again. You where fat because what you ate wasn't good for you. You can't go back to eating that again after loosing weight or you will go right back there. If I where to start eating as much as I did before then I would be really fat again. It's not a temporal change, it's a permanent change.

I prefer portion control over other kinds of diet because I can still eat what I want. I can eat pasta with a tomato sauce, or with a creamy Gorgonzola sauce. Or I can make a really good hamburger with cheese and bacon, a salad or maybe a pizza. I don't have to count calories or skip some food I really love.

Some people say that loosing weight is very hard for them "because of reasons that they can't control". But it's often that these people eat much more than they should. So it's entirely in their control. Portion control helps because it isn't very hard. It's extremely easy. Just put that plate on a scale and put your food there.

Click to expand...

Totally agree. Good eating habits require discipline, and the willingness to recognize that even though I'd like to have more food, if my weight is a concern, I should stop, and accept that feeling a little hungry is not a disaster.

I noticed that when i cut out soda and coffee...Having it only 1-2 times a week now..i lost like 6-7 lbs just from that sugar

Brady_to_Moss said:

I noticed that when i cut out soda and coffee...Having it only 1-2 times a week now..i lost like 6-7 lbs just from that sugar

Click to expand...

I switched to black coffee 20 years ago solely because I knew that much sugar couldn't be good for me.

JR4 said:

A couple of hundred calories of fruits which have a low glycemic index that are fine to eat slowly such
as RAW(no sugar added) raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, grapefruit etc.
High glycemic index include fruits like watermelon, apricots , dates etc

High glycemic index fruits spike your insulin and cause problems.
Good fruits are needed for a healthy body.

Click to expand...

But all bodies do not react the same.. That is one of the issues with the science today.. You have to find what works for you..

Brady&Springsteen FTW said:

6'3" 161 for a BMI of 20.1 (yeah I calculated it)

Click to expand...

BMI has to be the absolute worst "indicator" of a person's health ever. Why? Because it does not take into consideration the density/weight of a person's skeletal system. Particularly for those people like me who have extremely dense bones.

I am 5'9.5" and weigh 240 (down from 266). By the BMI chart, I should only weigh 169. However, my body fat % is about 24% or about 57.6lbs. Well, if you subtract that from 240, you get 182.. So still 13 lbs OVER what my ideal weight is supposed to be according to the BMI index..

I have Type 2 Diabetes and Hyperlipodemia (high Triglycerides). My HDL is in the lows 20s, my LDL is in the 80s.. My overall Cholesterol is 156 or so and has been constant for 17 years.

My doctor says I need a low carb diet with lots of vegetables. My problem is that my body has bad reactions to many vegetables.. For stuff like brussel sprouts, broccoli, and aspergras, I have a gag reflex and nausea. With many types of beans (beyond green beans and legumes like peanuts/cashews), I end up with Diarrhea, not to mention the gag reflex.

So I have struggled to find what works for me.

DaBruinz said:

BMI has to be the absolute worst "indicator" of a person's health ever. Why? Because it does not take into consideration the density/weight of a person's skeletal system. Particularly for those people like me who have extremely dense bones.

I am 5'9.5" and weigh 240 (down from 266). By the BMI chart, I should only weigh 169. However, my body fat % is about 24% or about 57.6lbs. Well, if you subtract that from 240, you get 182.. So still 13 lbs OVER what my ideal weight is supposed to be according to the BMI index..

I have Type 2 Diabetes and Hyperlipodemia (high Triglycerides). My HDL is in the lows 20s, my LDL is in the 80s.. My overall Cholesterol is 156 or so and has been constant for 17 years.

My doctor says I need a low carb diet with lots of vegetables. My problem is that my body has bad reactions to many vegetables.. For stuff like brussel sprouts, broccoli, and aspergras, I have a gag reflex and nausea. With many types of beans (beyond green beans and legumes like peanuts/cashews), I end up with Diarrhea, not to mention the gag reflex.

So I have struggled to find what works for me.

Click to expand...

No that's true. BMI can really skew the actual way a person looks because of all the factors that go into a person's weight.

AndyJohnson said:

....

...overweight guy can choose to eat healthy, eat less, deal with feeling hungry....

....you are limiting your remarks to people who who try hard to lose weight, eat right, and exercise, that is a small percentage of the overweight people...

.... my point has been that when you respond to a conversation about how to lose weight by essentially saying overweight people do everything right but are all afflicted with a condition that prevents them from losing weight, you are enabling poor eating habits and dismissing reality .....

I don't have whatever metabolism issue you seem to be applying to every overweight person in America but I guarantee you if I spent a year eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted I would gain 100 lbs.

Click to expand...

" overweight guy can choose to eat healthy, eat less, deal with feeling hungry"
millions and millions of people do this all the time and still can not lose weight.
Ask anyone of them who go to one of these diet work shops and eventually fail.

"you are limiting your remarks to people who who try hard to lose weight, eat right, and exercise, that is a small percentage of the overweight people"
Really? Like the millions of people who are on diets and exercise programs who fail year after year.
Oh wait ... they choose to stop eating right after months of not seeing much if any progress and
feeling hungry all the time. I just wonder how long you would stay on a diet if you had a weight
problem and didn't see any significant improvement???
You just belittle people saying they can't stick to a healthy diet and accuse them of lack of will power
and determination. If you could just walk in the shoes of some of these millions and millions of people
who have tried everything to lose wait weight year after year but eventually fail then maybe then you
might have some compassion and a willingness to consider there is something more going on than just
eating right and exercising.

my point has been that when you respond to a conversation about how to lose weight by essentially saying overweight people do everything right but are all afflicted with a condition that prevents them from losing weight, you are enabling poor eating habits and dismissing reality.

First, it is not ALL overweight people I am talking about. Said that back many posts ago. It is the
millions and millions of people who try to eat right and exercise but do not get the results they want
and after months of trying give up. This is not a small percentage this the American dieter
that attempts to diet( eat right) an average of 4 times a year.



"I don't have whatever metabolism issue you seem to be applying to every overweight person in America but I guarantee you if I spent a year eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted I would gain 100 lbs"
Probably ... but not necessarily. there are people who do eat what ever they want and don't become
over weight. Now they don't stuff themselves just to prove a point. They eat whatever they want and stop eating when they feel they've had enough. These people do not have a metabolic disorder.

Bottom line Andy, you just do not know about new scientific research on this topic so you think in old
ways -- calories in vs calories out , will power, determination, eat right and exercise.
This is wrong thinking when applied to millions and millions of people who are on this path every day
but failing because of a metabolic issue.

DaBruinz said:

BMI has to be the absolute worst "indicator" of a person's health ever. Why? Because it does not take into consideration the density/weight of a person's skeletal system. Particularly for those people like me who have extremely dense bones.

I am 5'9.5" and weigh 240 (down from 266). By the BMI chart, I should only weigh 169. However, my body fat % is about 24% or about 57.6lbs. Well, if you subtract that from 240, you get 182.. So still 13 lbs OVER what my ideal weight is supposed to be according to the BMI index..

I have Type 2 Diabetes and Hyperlipodemia (high Triglycerides). My HDL is in the lows 20s, my LDL is in the 80s.. My overall Cholesterol is 156 or so and has been constant for 17 years.

My doctor says I need a low carb diet with lots of vegetables. My problem is that my body has bad reactions to many vegetables.. For stuff like brussel sprouts, broccoli, and aspergras, I have a gag reflex and nausea. With many types of beans (beyond green beans and legumes like peanuts/cashews), I end up with Diarrhea, not to mention the gag reflex.

So I have struggled to find what works for me.

Click to expand...

Da'B - I agree about BMI - not a great indicator -
One issue that is unfortunately an accurate generalization is that most doctors have never taken a nutrition course and are literally recommending what they think to be "conventional wisdom".

Just as a light suggestion for another option you may want to peruse:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Starch-So...8-1&keywords=starch+solution+mcdougall&dpPl=1

if you can keep the fat really low - you can eat the foods you love - not a lot of veg or beans if you dont want.

JR4 said:

" overweight guy can choose to eat healthy, eat less, deal with feeling hungry"
millions and millions of people do this all the time and still can not lose weight.
Ask anyone of them who go to one of these diet work shops and eventually fail.

"you are limiting your remarks to people who who try hard to lose weight, eat right, and exercise, that is a small percentage of the overweight people"
Really? Like the millions of people who are on diets and exercise programs who fail year after year.
Oh wait ... they choose to stop eating right after months of not seeing much if any progress and
feeling hungry all the time. I just wonder how long you would stay on a diet if you had a weight
problem and didn't see any significant improvement???
You just belittle people saying they can't stick to a healthy diet and accuse them of lack of will power
and determination. If you could just walk in the shoes of some of these millions and millions of people
who have tried everything to lose wait weight year after year but eventually fail then maybe then you
might have some compassion and a willingness to consider there is something more going on than just
eating right and exercising.

my point has been that when you respond to a conversation about how to lose weight by essentially saying overweight people do everything right but are all afflicted with a condition that prevents them from losing weight, you are enabling poor eating habits and dismissing reality.

First, it is not ALL overweight people I am talking about. Said that back many posts ago. It is the
millions and millions of people who try to eat right and exercise but do not get the results they want
and after months of trying give up. This is not a small percentage this the American dieter
that attempts to diet( eat right) an average of 4 times a year.


"I don't have whatever metabolism issue you seem to be applying to every overweight person in America but I guarantee you if I spent a year eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted I would gain 100 lbs"
Probably ... but not necessarily. there are people who do eat what ever they want and don't become
over weight. Now they don't stuff themselves just to prove a point. They eat whatever they want and stop eating when they feel they've had enough. These people do not have a metabolic disorder.

Bottom line Andy, you just do not know about new scientific research on this topic so you think in old
ways -- calories in vs calories out , will power, determination, eat right and exercise.
This is wrong thinking when applied to millions and millions of people who are on this path every day
but failing because of a metabolic issue.

Click to expand...

I've seen loads of people who have tried a bunch of diets but haven't lost any weight. They usually complain and say that the problem is entirely out of their control. But in most cases that I've seen the problem is entirely in their control. Take my mom and her husband for example. They have tried a bunch of methods, but they are fat. For the same reason that a lot of other people are who have tried these diets and failed. They still eat enough for 2 persons each. They don't work out much either. Sure they golf and have dogs that they take for long walks. But after each golf round they eat some kind of unhealthy thing. A cake or candy. So basically all they burnt on the golf goes right back on that candy. These are people that when you ask them say that they've tried all the diets and none of them works.

I've seen loads of people that claim that nothing works. But the main reason is that they eat for 2 people and they still eat snacks when they are on diet. But it's much harder to accept that you have a problem than it is to say that the problem is entirely out of your control. Millions of people fail at diets because they eat way to much and they aren't motivated enough to actually stick to the diet at all times.

As I said in an earlier post. Loosing a lot of weight isn't a temporary change. It's a life change.

AndyJohnson said:

I switched to black coffee 20 years ago solely because I knew that much sugar couldn't be good for me.

Click to expand...

Same here. I love black coffee and its "free" to drink.

If I eat bread or fruit or drink beer, I gain weight. Next on that list is rice and potatoes. If I dont, I lose weight. I know everyone isn't the same, but that's how it is for me. Exercise changes my musculature but not my body fat.

I am lucky that I don't really care for sweets. It must be very difficult for people who do. I like salty foods but try to avoid them and eat raw almonds instead. Thank god I like salads.

I was a porky little bastard of a kid and I think that's made me paranoid about my weight now.

Horace's Ivories said:

if you can keep the fat really low - you can eat the foods you love - not a lot of veg or beans if you dont want.

Click to expand...

I've seen lot of diets that advocate low carbs or low fat or high protein. The thing is
we need carbs, we need fat and we need proteins. Eliminate too much fat and you risk
not being able to process fat soluble vitamins, too few carbs and your body won't have the
energy it needs and may start breaking down it's own proteins for energy especially if can't
break down fat. Too much protein and there are side effects like kidney issues.
The side effects of not having enough of something may not show up for years. Like you may
not see premature aging until it happens because you didn't get enough fat soluble vitamin E.

IMO, the Best diet is a balanced diet.
"The Insulin Resistance Diet" book found on amazon.com is worth reading.

JR4 said:

" overweight guy can choose to eat healthy, eat less, deal with feeling hungry"
millions and millions of people do this all the time and still can not lose weight.
Ask anyone of them who go to one of these diet work shops and eventually fail.

"you are limiting your remarks to people who who try hard to lose weight, eat right, and exercise, that is a small percentage of the overweight people"
Really? Like the millions of people who are on diets and exercise programs who fail year after year.
Oh wait ... they choose to stop eating right after months of not seeing much if any progress and
feeling hungry all the time. I just wonder how long you would stay on a diet if you had a weight
problem and didn't see any significant improvement???
You just belittle people saying they can't stick to a healthy diet and accuse them of lack of will power
and determination. If you could just walk in the shoes of some of these millions and millions of people
who have tried everything to lose wait weight year after year but eventually fail then maybe then you
might have some compassion and a willingness to consider there is something more going on than just
eating right and exercising.

my point has been that when you respond to a conversation about how to lose weight by essentially saying overweight people do everything right but are all afflicted with a condition that prevents them from losing weight, you are enabling poor eating habits and dismissing reality.

First, it is not ALL overweight people I am talking about. Said that back many posts ago. It is the
millions and millions of people who try to eat right and exercise but do not get the results they want
and after months of trying give up. This is not a small percentage this the American dieter
that attempts to diet( eat right) an average of 4 times a year.


"I don't have whatever metabolism issue you seem to be applying to every overweight person in America but I guarantee you if I spent a year eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted I would gain 100 lbs"
Probably ... but not necessarily. there are people who do eat what ever they want and don't become
over weight. Now they don't stuff themselves just to prove a point. They eat whatever they want and stop eating when they feel they've had enough. These people do not have a metabolic disorder.

Bottom line Andy, you just do not know about new scientific research on this topic so you think in old
ways -- calories in vs calories out , will power, determination, eat right and exercise.
This is wrong thinking when applied to millions and millions of people who are on this path every day
but failing because of a metabolic issue.

Click to expand...

Your error is that you think the diets fail, when in fact the people fail to follow them. A diet is strict. Talk to any overweight person who fails at diets and if they are honest they will tell you they cheat.

I don't dispute that there probably is a rare condition where people have metabolism that prevents them from losing weight, but the vast majority of overweight people simply eat too many calories and do not burn enough with exercise.
Its not 'old thinking' its the way it works.
The people that are overweight are overweight for a reason, which is that they eat too much and/or do not exercise enough. When they ATTEMPT to diet, they do not stick to the diet and fail. It happens to every single person who diets. Read through this thread at all the success stories. They all tried many different things before they found one that worked, because they found one they could stick to.
The 'new research' is not a new phenomena, and like all theories, it has flaws and cannot be considered gospel. Its a new version of 'I have a thyroid condition' when you try to apply it the way you are.

You still have not answered the question I asked before. Are you really saying that the majority of the overweight people in America are not overweight because they overeat?

Patjew said:

Same here. I love black coffee and its "free" to drink.

If I eat bread or fruit or drink beer, I gain weight. Next on that list is rice and potatoes. If I dont, I lose weight. I know everyone isn't the same, but that's how it is for me. Exercise changes my musculature but not my body fat.

I am lucky that I don't really care for sweets. It must be very difficult for people who do. I like salty foods but try to avoid them and eat raw almonds instead. Thank god I like salads.

I was a porky little bastard of a kid and I think that's made me paranoid about my weight now.

Click to expand...

I was raised on meat and potatoes every night. As I get older and try to eat healthier, I find that I can eat differently and be fine. Until a couple of years ago I would laugh if you said a salad was a meal, but Ive learned to like them.
My problem is I tend to go to extremes. I either go all in (quit smoking cold turkey, went on zero carb diet and the same time and gave up coffee too, just so I felt it was a major sacrifice and became determined) or once I start making exceptions (one ice cream cone wont hurt, right) I quickly move the line to many exceptions.
Frankly, I think I could follow any diet there is if someone would do the work for me, but sometimes its too hard to eat well, and the easiest, quickest choices are the ones that are not healthy.
Its a vicious cycle that only gets harder as you get older.