Thompkins

I take a bit of exception to the representation by Reiss that Thomkins has had an inordinate number of drops thus far. I've been to 3 of the 4 and I've only seen one bad one out of literally dozens of balls thrown to him of various degrees of accuracy and coverages.

Its PRACTICE for god's sake. This is the time when they are working on things. New patterns, new plays, new timings. WTF. Are we all so damned judgemental now that we expect these guys to march on the field for the first week of training camp and demand they catch every single ball that comes near them.

What I see are a lot people trying desperately to see their own selfish prognostications fulfilled and creating the stats to coincide. Some of the things they are calling "drops" would be remarkable catches if they were made. Its ridiculous some of the expectations that are being made, as well as some of the analysis.

patfanken said:

I take a bit of exception to the representation by Reiss that Thomkins has had an inordinate number of drops thus far. I've been to 3 of the 4 and I've only seen one bad one out of literally dozens of balls thrown to him of various degrees of accuracy and coverages.

Its PRACTICE for god's sake. This is the time when they are working on things. New patterns, new plays, new timings. WTF. Are we all so damned judgemental now that we expect these guys to march on the field for the first week of training camp and demand they catch every single ball that comes near them.

What I see are a lot people trying desperately to see their own selfish prognostications fulfilled and creating the stats to coincide. Some of the things they are calling "drops" would be remarkable catches if they were made. Its ridiculous some of the expectations that are being made, as well as some of the analysis.

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On the other hand we had posters move him off the bubble to a lock based upon reading about the first practice.

There is no doubt that too much focus is put on the minimal amount of information (someone touted a DL because he was 1 win and 1 loss in a pass rushing drill.) but to imply that there is fuzzy math going on because the guy counting the drops is out to get your boy, is silly.

AndyJohnson said:

On the other hand we had posters move him off the bubble to a lock based upon reading about the first practice.

There is no doubt that too much focus is put on the minimal amount of information (someone touted a DL because he was 1 win and 1 loss in a pass rushing drill.) but to imply that there is fuzzy math going on because the guy counting the drops is out to get your boy, is silly.

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Right on the money with this one Andy. I don't understand the expectations people have of these guys. No matter how good you are, you are going to get beat. If you can remember that far back, football is a very humbling game (unless you are a Jet)

patfanken said:

Right on the money with this one Andy. I don't understand the expectations people have of these guys. No matter how good you are, you are going to get beat. If you can remember that far back, football is a very humbling game (unless you are a Jet)

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My favorite has always been "Matt Light can't handle speed rushers" which came up due to Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney and John Abraham, while they consistently got to the QB less when they faced Light.
"OMG Jason Taylor got a sack, Light must suck."

AndyJohnson said:

My favorite has always been "Matt Light can't handle speed rushers" which came up due to Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney and John Abraham, while they consistently got to the QB less when they faced Light.
"OMG Jason Taylor got a sack, Light must suck."

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I'm willing to take the bet that at some point this season Revis will give up a long pass play, and we'll be treated to a few "Has Revis lost a step?" threads. Or better yet, "Has BB ruined Revis?"

patfanken said:

... football is a very humbling game (unless you are a Jet)

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... especially if you are a jet?

joepatsfan said:

@Brady6 you talked about earlier that the team wont cut LaFell because they want to see what he can do.. couldn't the same argument be made for DA? He wasn't close to 100% last season but showed glimpses of WW-esque. I think the team wants to see what HE can do as well. They didn't give him 10 M guaranteed to walk away after one sub par year by some expectations.

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I am really trying not to get into any great debates over Danny Amendola but I will answer your question. I feel that Amendola’s injury influencing his play was exaggerated especially in the second half of the season. When Amendola went down with the injury, the return timeline was 2-6 weeks. Amendola missed week 2, week 3, week 4, week 7, and then we had a bye in week in week 10, all totaled Amendola only played 171 snaps during weeks 2-10 of the season. He was quoted on 9/26 saying he was close to 100% and I know NFL players do not always tell the truth about injuries but he still felt comfortable saying that.

Fast forward to the AFCCG when Amendola had 0 catches and 1 drop, this game took place on 1/19/2014; Amendola injured his groin on 9/9/2013, which spans 4 months and 10 days, so 18 ½ weeks. If Amendola were still limited by the groin injury 18 ½ weeks after he suffered the injury to the degree that he has 0 catches and 1 drop in the most important game of his career – I would have to question if the injury caused permanent loss in ability.

Danny Amendola has consistently been a 600-680 yards per season receiver, he entered the NFL in 2008, he has been a top target on his team since 2010, and that is what he has produced, I am optimistic about Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins second year leap, but Amendola’s seventh year leap does not seem very likely.

This is my opinion, if you disagree that is your right, I respect your opinion, and I hope that you and others can respect my opinion. The season will determine whose is more accurate.

Brady6 said:

I am really trying not to get into any great debates over Danny Amendola but I will answer your question. I feel that Amendola’s injury influencing his play was exaggerated especially in the second half of the season. When Amendola went down with the injury, the return timeline was 2-6 weeks. Amendola missed week 2, week 3, week 4, week 7, and then we had a bye in week in week 10, all totaled Amendola only played 171 snaps during weeks 2-10 of the season. He was quoted on 9/26 saying he was close to 100% and I know NFL players do not always tell the truth about injuries but he still felt comfortable saying that.

Fast forward to the AFCCG when Amendola had 0 catches and 1 drop, this game took place on 1/19/2014; Amendola injured his groin on 9/9/2013, which spans 4 months and 10 days, so 18 ½ weeks. If Amendola were still limited by the groin injury 18 ½ weeks after he suffered the injury to the degree that he has 0 catches and 1 drop in the most important game of his career – I would have to question if the injury caused permanent loss in ability.

Danny Amendola has consistently been a 600-680 yards per season receiver, he entered the NFL in 2008, he has been a top target on his team since 2010, and that is what he has produced, I am optimistic about Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins second year leap, but Amendola’s seventh year leap does not seem very likely.

This is my opinion, if you disagree that is your right, I respect your opinion, and I hope that you and others can respect my opinion. The season will determine whose is more accurate.

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I do think this might be on target, unfortunately.

At the beginning of the year, throughout training camp and up until Week 1, Amendola was Brady's go-to guy. He appeared to be a Welker clone who was a little bigger and faster. In Week 1, he put together an incredible performance to help beat Buffalo.

I read that his hip was not going to re-attach, so I figured that the rest of the season, his play would be way below expectations and he would be grilled by everyone. Watching the games, I thought that was the case, and it seemed that he was playing through pain.

It wasn't until late in the season when I started to second guess the real reason for his struggles. There was one game where he beat coverage for a 57-yard sprint catch up the seem; against Pittsburgh he also had a long TD, and it didn't look like he was impaired at all physically.

I heard some comments from a few beat reporters that he was not on Brady's radar because of his struggles with learning the routes and reading defenses.

By the postseason, particularly against Denver, it appeared that he had been Ocho-Cinco'd and might as well have not suited up. Brady has never avoided throwing to hobbled players, but he always avoids throwing to guys who aren't in the right place and have caused him to lose confidence.

I hope I am wrong.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

I heard some comments from a few beat reporters that he was not on Brady's radar because of his struggles with learning the routes and reading defenses.

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One thing that stood out to me was in week 15 against the Dolphins Amendola was targeted 14 times, the final target being the potential game winning touchdown catch that he misplayed. Over the next 4 games (final 4 of the season) Brady targeted Amendola a total of 12 times despite Amendola being on the field for 146 snaps over that span. That to me is bigger indication of Brady not having confidence in Amendola than Amendola having an injury. People forget his best game of the season was the Dolphins game, which he played with that same “horrific groin injury”.

This is Amendola’s M/O look at his game logs, he is not consistent, in 2012 he played 2 games against the 49ers and the Redskins. In those games, he was targeted 28 times for 26 catches and 262 yards, with a catch ratio of 93%. In the other 9 games he played he was targeted 73 times for 37 catches, with a catch ratio just under 51%. This past season was no different; he had 24 catches for 357 yards in 3 games (Bills, Steelers, and Dolphins) and in his other 9 regular season games he had 30 receptions for 276 yards. He can maximize certain matchups extremely well and if you look at those games you believe that he is like Welker but those games are only 15-25% of the games he plays the other games he is average at best. This was the case even in the preseason, it was 1 quarter that against Tampa Bay that he played really well. The rest of the preseason he was not a factor. Edelman led to the Patriots in catches in the preseason, regular season, and postseason.

I suspect that an injury will decide which of our WR's is not a significant contributor this year.

I would note that, barring injury, the #4 WR gets few reps. The #5 WR and #6 WR get almost none at all.
Of course, being a KR can bring one up in the depth chart to active status.

mgteich said:

I suspect that an injury will decide which of our WR's is not a significant contributor this year.

I would note that, barring injury, the #4 WR gets few reps. The #5 WR and #6 WR get almost none at all.
Of course, being a KR can bring one up in the depth chart to active status.

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I suspect that as the season progresses you will see certain players gain the bulk of the work based on performance. Right now, I see Gronkowski, Edelman, and Vereen as players Brady will target after that I think any 2-3 players can earn Brady’s trust and become prominent targets in the offense.

mgteich said:

I suspect that an injury will decide which of our WR's is not a significant contributor this year.

I would note that, barring injury, the #4 WR gets few reps. The #5 WR and #6 WR get almost none at all.
Of course, being a KR can bring one up in the depth chart to active status.

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Given that the base offense appears to now be 3 WRs, I think the #4 WR will get many more snaps (probably as many as the #3 used to) and the #5 will see a lot of action if there are injuries.

Do you believe that an injury to a WR will NOT affect the depth chart this year? After all, that was my point.

I think it instructive that the 3 core members you mention all have significant injury histories.

Brady6 said:

I suspect that as the season progresses you will see certain players gain the bulk of the work based on performance. Right now, I see Gronkowski, Edelman, and Vereen as players Brady will target after that I think any 2-3 players can earn Brady’s trust and become prominent targets in the offense.

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If players play to their level of capability, the best 1-2-3 lineup would be:

X-WR – Dobson
Z-WR – Boyce
Slot-WR – Edelman

You have Dobson as the AJ Green type on the outside, Boyce as the TY Hilton type in the Z, and Edelman as the Welker type in the slot.

mgteich said:

Do you believe that an injury to a WR will NOT affect the depth chart this year? After all, that was my point.

I think it instructive that the 3 core members you mention all have significant injury histories.

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Injuries always play a role in the NFL.

Brady6 said:

I am really trying not to get into any great debates over Danny Amendola but I will answer your question. I feel that Amendola’s injury influencing his play was exaggerated especially in the second half of the season. When Amendola went down with the injury, the return timeline was 2-6 weeks. Amendola missed week 2, week 3, week 4, week 7, and then we had a bye in week in week 10, all totaled Amendola only played 171 snaps during weeks 2-10 of the season. He was quoted on 9/26 saying he was close to 100% and I know NFL players do not always tell the truth about injuries but he still felt comfortable saying that.

Fast forward to the AFCCG when Amendola had 0 catches and 1 drop, this game took place on 1/19/2014; Amendola injured his groin on 9/9/2013, which spans 4 months and 10 days, so 18 ½ weeks. If Amendola were still limited by the groin injury 18 ½ weeks after he suffered the injury to the degree that he has 0 catches and 1 drop in the most important game of his career – I would have to question if the injury caused permanent loss in ability.

Danny Amendola has consistently been a 600-680 yards per season receiver, he entered the NFL in 2008, he has been a top target on his team since 2010, and that is what he has produced, I am optimistic about Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins second year leap, but Amendola’s seventh year leap does not seem very likely.

This is my opinion, if you disagree that is your right, I respect your opinion, and I hope that you and others can respect my opinion. The season will determine whose is more accurate.

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Okay, so you just answered this.... you shouldn't have this out for Danny Amendola then. You should be pissed at Belichick.

If you can turn around and accept that Amendola is only a 600-800 yard guy then that's not his fault, it's BB's fault for paying him like he was gonna produce close to Welker numbers.

the contract BB gave Amendola set the bar too high for him then. You shouldn't have it out for the player then if you don't think he's very good. Blame the team for relying way too much on a marginal player.

joepatsfan said:

Okay, so you just answered this.... you shouldn't have this out for Danny Amendola then. You should be pissed at Belichick.

If you can turn around and accept that Amendola is only a 600-800 yard guy then that's not his fault, it's BB's fault for paying him like he was gonna produce close to Welker numbers.

the contract BB gave Amendola set the bar too high for him then. You shouldn't have it out for the player then if you don't think he's very good. Blame the team for relying way too much on a marginal player.

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I do not actually have it out for Amendola; I really do not have much of a preference for him as a player one way or another to be completely honest. What annoys me are the posters who take a Tebow fan type stance on him, they defend him endlessly, make excuse after excuse, and promise improvements based on hope. I become caught up in the pissing contests over this, but really, who I am out for in these debates are the fans who blindly defend him, not Danny himself, he just happens to be the ammunition that I use to try and win the debate.

Last season Edelman did what he did because it was the first time in his career that he saw consistent playing time as a receiver, prior to that he had never played more than 24% of the team’s offensive snaps. Edelman got a chance and succeeded, Amendola has been a top target in an offense since 2010, and he has never had a 100 catches for 1000 yards. When posters roll through and tell me it is going to happen in 2014 I have to believe they are either, related to him, his agent, or the most optimistic fan in the world.

As far as his contract goes, it is what it is; they had to do something after Welker walked, Amendola was the best option and they paid what the market was commanding for him.

I do not want to go back and forth over Amendola; it is not productive for me or for the board. Everyone knows where I stand. If Amendola proves me wrong, I will eat my crow.

Amendola will never replace Welker, let me say that again "Amendola will never replace Welker". Amendola is an injury waiting to happen. Pats got screwed signing him.

Brady6 said:

I What annoys me are the posters who take a Tebow fan type stance on him, they defend him endlessly, make excuse after excuse, and promise improvements based on hope. .

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Please name these posters.

Brewskies said:

Amendola will never replace Welker, let me say that again "Amendola will never replace Welker". Amendola is an injury waiting to happen. Pats got screwed signing him.

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Who said he was going to replace him? Also can you tell us who the Pats should have signed last off season at WR?