OT: Chargers Extend Danny Woodhead

RayClay said:

I am not pro anything. I just think Woodhead is a fine, small player who is good, but not outstanding, as both a runner and receiver.

There's nothing wrong with being a good, dependable all around player in my opinion. I laughed when I swiped your quote, but it was a quote and i knew I was going to get skewered for implying that Woodhead wasn't the greatest thing since bacon wrapped bacon.

Sorry to stick you into the middle of this, but it's fun to be a contrarian once in a while. Passes the time til we see some damn games, anyway.

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I think Woodhead might be slightly better than you say, but I agree he is more of a situational player than a primary threat.

That is the thing I don't get about the people who are dumping on Vereen in this thread. He is being penalized because he isn't Darren Sproles (who I think the Pats model how they want to use him even if he isn't as good). I think both Vereen and Woodhead are solid change of pace/third down backs. I think when healthy, Vereen is far better. The problem with Vereen is over three years thus far, he hasn't been healthy nearly enough.

As for the contrarian thing, I don't like it. I just want to be loved.

Rob0729 said:

I think Woodhead might be slightly better than you say, but I agree he is more of a situational player than a primary threat.

That is the thing I don't get about the people who are dumping on Vereen in this thread. He is being penalized because he isn't Darren Sproles (who I think the Pats model how they want to use him even if he isn't as good). I think both Vereen and Woodhead are solid change of pace/third down backs. I think when healthy, Vereen is far better. The problem with Vereen is over three years thus far, he hasn't been healthy nearly enough.

As for the contrarian thing, I don't like it. I just want to be loved.

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The problem is you keep on saying far better yet you need to use cherry-picked pro-rated stats, can't compare production head to head because they apparently play different positions and give built in excuses for any failings (dropped passes).

I don't see how you can say far better, I don't know what Vereen has done to elevate himself to that level.

Armchair Quarterback said:

The problem is you keep on saying far better yet you need to use cherry-picked pro-rated stats, can't compare production head to head because they apparently play different positions and give built in excuses for any failings (dropped passes).

I don't see how you can say far better, I don't know what Vereen has done to elevate himself to that level.

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What level did he elevate himself to? Woodhead isn't Darren Sproles either. He was a solid role player here. Let's not go overboard.

The fact is Woodhead never had games like Vereen had with the Bills or Browns last year or the Texans in the playoffs the year before or the Jets game in that season. Maybe one game in his first year here, but Woodhead was never a huge factor in the passing game like Vereen has been.

Woodhead has the consistency, but Vereen is able to be a big factor in the receiving game which Woodhead really never was.

Rob0729 said:

... Maybe I should try to become a contrarian poster, I guess I do it pretty well. Everyone disagrees with me.

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I agree with you

Another one of Bill's blunders. Woodhead is reliable and consistent. Vereen is not.

TonyTucker said:

Another one of Bill's blunders. Woodhead is reliable and consistent. Vereen is not.

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Because broken wrists are something that you can predict?

If he was still being nagged by chronic injuries like the hamstring from his rookie year, I'd agree with you. But chalking up a broken wrist to a scouting failure is just asinine.

What are the number$ ?

Ideally I wish we could've kept Blount and Woodhead. And traded Ridley and/or Vereen

I miss Woody too, but I'd rather have Vereen right now. That said, it definitely appears we should have found a way to keep Woody on the roster, at the very least over Bolden who after a great start hasn't impressed me at all since his injuries and suspension in the latter part of 2012.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, going into last season I can't say for sure I would have chosen Woody over Bolden's potential or the chance at a hammer like Blount.

OK, folks, training camp is on us and this thread seems to me to have gone over the same ground again and again.

So let's have some predictions for Shane Vereen's season. I'd count it a success if he gets over 750 yards from scrimmage. (DW had 747 in 2012 and 1034 in 2013.)

Will he or won't he?

My guess is against -- but I REALLY hope that I'm wrong.

Mike the Brit said:

OK, folks, training camp is on us and this thread seems to me to have gone over the same ground again and again.

So let's have some predictions for Shane Vereen's season. I'd count it a success if he gets over 750 yards from scrimmage. (DW had 747 in 2012 and 1034 in 2013.)

Will he or won't he?

My guess is against -- but I REALLY hope that I'm wrong.

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Vereen should easily get 750 yards from scrimmage. You do realize he had 635 yards from scrimmage last year (208 yards rushing and 427 yards receiving) while only playing eight games due to injury? He plays 10-12 games and he should surpass that mark. If he plays 16 games, he should easily surpass Woodhead's 2013 number based on his play from last year.

What people fail to realize is that even with Woodhead having a spectacular year last year and Vereen injured, Veeren actually had more yards from scrimmage per game played than Woodhead did last year. Woodhead had 64.6 yards per game played last year and Vereen had 79.4 yards per game played last year. They both had the same amount of TDs per game played with 0.5 TDs per game.

Danger Zone said:

I agree with you

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I'll take it because at least you agree with me for something.

Rob0729 said:

Vereen should easily get 750 yards from scrimmage. You do realize he had 635 yards from scrimmage last year (208 yards rushing and 427 yards receiving) while only playing eight games due to injury? He plays 10-12 games and he should surpass that mark. If he plays 16 games, he should easily surpass Woodhead's 2013 number based on his play from last year.

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OK. Let's talk about it again at the end of the regular season. I hope that you're right.

Mike the Brit said:

OK. Let's talk about it again at the end of the regular season. I hope that you're right.

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You replied before I cited stats how Vereen had a better yards per scrimmage per game played than Woodhead had last year (which was Woodhead's best year as a pro). So assuming he is the same player he was last year (he should be better with his wrist healed) and he can stay healthy (that is the only real problem with Vereen), he should easily prove you wrong.

Rob0729 said:

Vereen should easily get 750 yards from scrimmage. You do realize he had 635 yards from scrimmage last year (208 yards rushing and 427 yards receiving) while only playing eight games due to injury? He plays 10-12 games and he should surpass that mark. If he plays 16 games, he should easily surpass Woodhead's 2013 number based on his play from last year.

What people fail to realize is that even with Woodhead having a spectacular year last year and Vereen injured, Veeren actually had more yards from scrimmage per game played than Woodhead did last year. Woodhead had 64.6 yards per game played last year and Vereen had 79.4 yards per game played last year. They both had the same amount of TDs per game played with 0.5 TDs per game.

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You're putting an awful lot of stock in Vereen having another game like week 14 when he had 12 catches for 153 yards in which the circumstances allowed him to be targeted a ridiculous 17 times (13 times in the final 21 minutes after Gronk went out) in the passing game. The Patriots were already without Dobson and Thompkins, Ridley was in the doghouse and they were left essentially without a TE when Gronk went down with Hooman being inactive. That game was an outlier and a stat booster that accounted for more than a third of his season total. He also accounted for half his season total rushing yards in week one with Bolden out and Ridley being benched for a fumble that was returned for a TD

Factor in a clean slate for Ridley as well as James White, a very good pass catcher, a better blocker and a better inside runner than Vereen whom the coaching staff seems to love and it's not as simple as doubling Vereen's stats from 2013. Vereen would be hard pressed to match Woodhead's 2013 numbers this year. 750 yards is possible, 1000 or more is unlikely IMO.

Armchair Quarterback said:

You're putting an awful lot of stock in Vereen having another game like week 14 when he had 12 catches for 153 yards in which the circumstances allowed him to be targeted a ridiculous 17 times (13 times in the final 21 minutes after Gronk went out) in the passing game. The Patriots were already without Dobson and Thompkins, Ridley was in the doghouse and they were left essentially without a TE when Gronk went down with Hooman being inactive. That game was an outlier and a stat booster that accounted for more than a third of his season total. He also accounted for half his season total rushing yards in week one with Bolden out and Ridley being benched for a fumble returned for a TD

Factor in a clean slate for Ridley as well as James White, a very good pass catcher, a better blocker and a better inside runner than Vereen whom the coaching staff seems to love and it's not as simple as doubling Vereen's stats from 2013. Vereen would be hard pressed to match Woodhead's 2013 numbers this year. 750 yards is possible, 1000 or more is unlikely IMO.

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Against Houston in the playoffs he had 5 catches for 83 yards and 2 TDs in 2012. He also had 91 yards and one TD against the Jets that season too. He also had four games out of 8 games played last year where he had 7 or more catches.

I don't expect him to have many or any 153 yard catch games (although it isn't out of the question), the guy has been a consistent receiver on the field when helathy and he should have more catches per game than he had last year even with that outlier. Based on last year's stats, he should have 7-8 catches a game when healthy.

The Pats seemed to want to go into the season last year with him being more a focal point in the passing game and so far in training camp it looks like they are still planning on making him a focal point in the passing game. I know it is only day two of camp and they aren't even in pads yet, but Vereen caught the most balls from Brady yesterday and I think he hooked up for a TD pass today with Brady.

I get that you hate Vereen, but seem to go out of you way to make him seem useless.

I like Woodhead a lot as a player (and not just because he is yet another example of jet stupidity). He's a good football player and seems like a good guy. Did NE miss a chance to resign him or was he ready to move on to a situation where he could expect more touches? There no guarantee that Woodhead would have been as productive had he remained a Patriot in 2013 as he was in San Diego.

It's pretty clear that BB regards running backs as fungible. Let's see where Vereen ends up if James White emerges as a player.

Rob0729 said:

Against Houston in the playoffs he had 5 catches for 83 yards and 2 TDs in 2012. He also had 91 yards and one TD against the Jets that season too. He also had four games out of 8 games played last year where he had 7 or more catches.

I don't expect him to have many or any 153 yard catch games (although it isn't out of the question), the guy has been a consistent receiver on the field when helathy and he should have more catches per game than he had last year even with that outlier. Based on last year's stats, he should have 7-8 catches a game when healthy.

The Pats seemed to want to go into the season last year with him being more a focal point in the passing game and so far in training camp it looks like they are still planning on making him a focal point in the passing game. I know it is only day two of camp and they aren't even in pads yet, but Vereen caught the most balls from Brady yesterday and I think he hooked up for a TD pass today with Brady.

I get that you hate Vereen, but seem to go out of you way to make him seem useless.

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Hate Vereen? Because I don't agree Vereen is a far better player than Woodhead. Grow up.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Hate Vereen? Because I don't agree Vereen is a far better player than Woodhead. Grow up.

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Sorry, but you seem to hate him as a player. I guess I am wrong. I apologize.

But I forget to mention that if you take out the game where he got 153 receiving yards last season, he still averaged 67.5 yards from scrimmage per game over seven games played (which would be 1081 yards if he averaged that over a 16 game season) which is still more than Woodhead's 64.6 yards from scrimmage per game last year. So even taking out Vereen's best game in terms of yards he had more yards per game played than Woodhead.

Rob0729 said:

Sorry, but you seem to hate him as a player. I guess I am wrong. I apologize.

But I forget to mention that if you take out the game where he got 153 receiving yards last season, he still averaged 67.5 yards from scrimmage per game over seven games played (which would be 1081 yards if he averaged that over a 16 game season) which is still more than Woodhead's 64.6 yards from scrimmage per game last year. So even taking out Vereen's best game in terms of yards he had more yards per game played than Woodhead.

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I think he is overrated by many, I'll give you that, but hate is way too strong of a word.

Prorating Vereens stats over a full season leave out the possibility that the numbers would go down. If you simply doubled Woodhead's stats after his first 8 games in 2013 he'd have ended up with 98 catches for 782 yards rather than the 76-605 he actually did.