What's the move you want to see before the season starts?

patfanken said:

The proposed trade of Rob Housley for a 2nd or 3rd round pick(or a 4th or 5th or 6th) doesn't even come close to that level of risk/reward.

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I certainly am not advocating giving up a day 2 pick for Housler. But stranger things have happened. The Pats traded a 2nd and 7th for Wes Welker in 2007, and that ended up working out pretty well, though a lot of people thought they overspent at the time. For comparison purposes:

- Welker through his first 3 years (2004-2006): 96 receptions, 1121 yards, 1 TD
- Housler through his first 3 years (2011-2013): 96 receptions, 1004 yards, 1 TD

Again, I'm certainly not advocating it, but if the Pats formed a high enough opinion of Housler the way they did of Welker, it wouldn't be out of the question to go as high as a day 2 pick.

Housler is very intriguing as a cheap "shot" for sure. My feeling is they have a plan to have no TE receiving threat if Gronk gets hurt and Gronk is just a humongous bonus when he's healthy. With extra WR and two legit receiving back (Vereen, White and possibly a third in Finch) I think they're fine using Hooman and Devlin as traditional blocking TE as needed if/when Gronk is out and matching up with spread formations with WR and/or multiple RB formations.

BelichickFan said:

Housler is very intriguing as a cheap "shot" for sure. My feeling is they have a plan to have no TE receiving threat if Gronk gets hurt and Gronk is just a humongous bonus when he's healthy. With extra WR and two legit receiving back (Vereen, White and possibly a third in Finch) I think they're fine using Hooman and Devlin as traditional blocking TE as needed if/when Gronk is out and matching up with spread formations with WR and/or multiple RB formations.

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You may well be right, BF. I do, however, see the distinct possibility of the Pats using LaFell as a move TE sort once it's determined that any/all of the kid wideouts show more promise than LaFell does at the WR spot.

Since you all are talking about Housler, I look at some of his games, he reminds me of Aaron Hernandez without the murdering.

This is from Rotoworld...

ESPN Cardinals reporter Josh Weinfuss believes Rob Housler is "sitting at No. 4 right now" on Arizona's tight end depth chart, behind John Carlson, Jake Ballard, and rookie Troy Niklas.

"He's just not the type of tight end head coach Bruce Arians prefers," Weinfuss writes. The Cardinals' website seems to agree, also projecting Carlson and Ballard ahead of Housler. Once Niklas (hand surgery) gets healthy, it will be interesting to see if Housler goes on the trade block. The Patriots, Giants, Packers, and Falcons could also use an athletic, catch-first tight end.

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Bobs My Uncle said:

You may well be right, BF. I do, however, see the distinct possibility of the Pats using LaFell as a move TE sort once it's determined that any/all of the kid wideouts show more promise than LaFell does at the WR spot.

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Given his blocking ability I wondered if move TE was the reason they brought him in to start with, although there have been no reports of him at the position in recent camps. Could just be another Browner to safety projection based upon size and skills.

mayoclinic said:

I certainly am not advocating giving up a day 2 pick for Housler. But stranger things have happened. The Pats traded a 2nd and 7th for Wes Welker in 2007, and that ended up working out pretty well, though a lot of people thought they overspent at the time. For comparison purposes:

- Welker through his first 3 years (2004-2006): 96 receptions, 1121 yards, 1 TD
- Housler through his first 3 years (2011-2013): 96 receptions, 1004 yards, 1 TD

Again, I'm certainly not advocating it, but if the Pats formed a high enough opinion of Housler the way they did of Welker, it wouldn't be out of the question to go as high as a day 2 pick.

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The difference is that Welker absolutely carved the Patriots up when he played against them for Miami, he even took over for Mare when he went down.

Ivan said:

The difference is that Welker absolutely carved the Patriots up when he played against them for Miami, he even took over for Mare when he went down.

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Absolutely. That's why I added the "if the Pats formed a high enough opinion" clause. When the Pats played Arizona in 2012 Housler had 1 reception for 7 yards and was only targeted once (the Cardinals passing offense struggled under Kevin Kolb, and put up only 140 yards passing against the Pats), so it certainly wouldn't be based on head-to-head play.

FWIW, ESPN's Josh Weinfuss notes this in his Cardinals pre-training camp mailbag:

I'd say it's likely the Cardinals will carry four tight ends on the 53-man roster, but will the fourth be Rob Housler? That all depends on how he plays during training camp. I think he's sitting at No. 4 right now behind John Carlson, Jake Ballard and rookie Troy Niklas. He's just not the type of tight end head coach Bruce Arians prefers. Arians may have inherited Housler, who's in the final year of his rookie contract, but that doesn't mean he has to keep him.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/arizona-cardinals/post/_/id/7238/cards-mailbag-training-camp-approaches

I don't understand where the idea of LaFell being a 'move' TE came from. I get the speculation of Browner at safety (even though I think that is years away). LaFell is a decent sized WR, but an extremely undersized TE of any kind. He's 6'2" and 210. A "move" TE will play in the backfield, end of the line, in the slot and out wide. That's the point, they have versatile skills that translate well to any of those spots due to their size/strength, athletic ability and receiving/blocking skills. Not just because they are tall, quick and can catch. If LaFell played on the end of the line, he'd likely get crushed. He may be able to play multiple WR spots but at the beginning and end of the day that's what he is. A WR. Hopefully a productive one at that.

Section103 said:

I don't understand where the idea of LaFell being a 'move' TE came from. I get the speculation of Browner at safety (even though I think that is years away). LaFell is a decent sized WR, but an extremely undersized TE of any kind. He's 6'2" and 210. A "move" TE will play in the backfield, end of the line, in the slot and out wide. That's the point, they have versatile skills that translate well to any of those spots due to their size/strength, athletic ability and receiving/blocking skills. Not just because they are tall, quick and can catch. If LaFell played on the end of the line, he'd likely get crushed. He may be able to play multiple WR spots but at the beginning and end of the day that's what he is. A WR. Hopefully a productive one at that.

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I started speculating on it when the reports of his blocking ability came out but apparently he knew the TE role in Carolina and there was a Globe article subsequent to that saying the Patriots may use him in the Hernandez role. We'll see what happens but Hernandez was no blocker and he did just fine in the move TE. (Apparently if Hernandez didn't have a gun he didn't have much confidence he could get someone out of the way.....)

I don't think you will see much of Lafell on the line but i think they could use him in the slot TE role Hernadez played and they can use Vereen to run the plays that The Prisoner ran out of the backfield.

mayoclinic said:

Absolutely. That's why I added the "if the Pats formed a high enough opinion" clause. When the Pats played Arizona in 2012 Housler had 1 reception for 7 yards and was only targeted once (the Cardinals passing offense struggled under Kevin Kolb, and put up only 140 yards passing against the Pats), so it certainly wouldn't be based on head-to-head play.

FWIW, ESPN's Josh Weinfuss notes this in his Cardinals pre-training camp mailbag:



http://espn.go.com/blog/arizona-cardinals/post/_/id/7238/cards-mailbag-training-camp-approaches

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I certainly think it is an option for the Patriots, Belichick is a really active GM and he adds players he believes that can help anytime he can, he's made many moves in the summer over the years and i expect he will add to TE and LB before they hit camp or during it, as well as during cutdowns.

After Manning's record setting empire crumbled to a dominant defense they set to build a dominant defense of their own. And their defense really could be that dominant my sisters bf is from Denver and they were disappointed when Sean weathetspoon went down because they are looking to make a trade at some point for a dominant LB especially if their defense doesn't intimidate like they hope. Several NFL teams are trying to build dominant defenses with wide body DTs who can also penetrate,edge rushers and LBs who warp on the scene for splash plays.

THIS COULD BE A PROB UNLESS OUR OLINE CONSIDERABLY IMPROVES. Denver's Defense could be fearsome as well. Let's be innovative and proactive. Let's get some OLineman who can send those BADA$$ Defenses back to their corners bruised and wobbled. Instead of an OLine who just simply gets by. Instead of an OLine who gets the job done most of the time (if that) but while getting bullied. Our OLine has always treaded water instead if swimming. They play heads up and know when to make double team blocks(which is quite often). But they struggle against tough defenses with multiple mean Lineman.

LETS MAKE A MOVE FOR CARL NICKS!! Let's start a trend of beating up bully defenses. Just because we have Brady who carves up defenses with precision doesn't mean our OLine cant be mean and dominant even in a zone or stretch scheme. Just because a guard is a big powerful mauler doesn't mean he can't have LT athleticism. Thats a stereotype. Carl Nicks when healthy is the most dominant Olineman in the NFL. He compares favorably to #2 overall pick in the draft Greg Robinson. He routinely crashes down his whole side of the DLine. In the Superbowl colts defense wanted no part of him by the fourth quarter. They were taking breaks before they were even tired. He could be the most dominant Guard since Larry Allen. It was rediculous he lasted til round5 because he was stereotyped as lacking athleticism just because he was so strong. And teams saw him as a "project" guard convert and he had some minor technique issues(as does Greg Robinson). Teams saw his athleticism however while nicks athleticism was way undervalued Sean Payton said he could play LT on a moments notice and dominate. He also called him an all time draft steal. Jake Long at the combine was very impressed with Nicks and the way he moved. He is viewed as a top guard but is still vastly underrated while his talents are wasted in TB. Most teams don't realize he could be a standout LT or RT if needed. TB has been willing to trade him to unload salary and help rebuild the line. His contract would be up anyway by time they rebuild to a young line. Carl Nicks however is only 28 and in his prime.

Trading for Nicks injects dominance into our OLine and will help us to punch back at dominant defenses. When we win the championship they will be talking about how we tamed those fearsome defenses along the way. But most importantly he helps provide a clean pocket for Brady which allows our offense to finally flourish again in big games. Our young guys may not be ready yet and are unproven. Nicks allows us to develop those guys. Our OLine could be the best in the NFL from one trade that will have a ripple effect on the whole OLine making it dominant. Imagine these OLine projections

LT -SOLDER(MANY PROJECT HE JOINS THE ELITE THIS SEASON)
LG -MANKINS ( our most consistent since 05 ,plays nasty)
CENTER- STORK OR HALAPIO(hopefully they see halapios' power\value if stork struggles)
RG- CARL NICKS-(most dominant guard in NFL, a weapon against menacing front sevens)
RT- VOLLMER( TOP 5 RT When healthy,good pass protector/strong/nasty)

IF A TACKLE IS INJURED NICKS CAN FILL IN NO PROBLEM. THEN FLEMING AND Cannon can compete for RG spot and the OLine doesn't skip a beat. Nicks would also be valuable coaching Fleming and Cannon how to adjust to multiple positions. I would rather have Fleming and Cannon competing for backup RG which fits their talent best and a position they should flourish. Rather than backing up RT where both are merely adequate. Adequate doesn't get it done in the playoffs against the dominant menacing defenses and menacing edge rushers. Also if Mankins is in decline Fleming and Cannon can compete to replace the vet legend. MANKINS/HALAPIO/NICKS MAKES FOR THE MOST DOMINANT NASTY INTERIOR OLINE IN THE NFL. Throw in the bookends Solder/Vollmer and its the best most dominant OLine in the NFL hands down period! Which means Brady Will have a clean pocket. We all know what that means for our passing attack. The whole NFL will know what that means. Especially the dominant bully defenses. Carl Nicks improves our who OLine across the board. He offsets any advantages menacing passrushes have had on us.

You guys know I have to bring this up. LOL. Jermichael Finley reboots our 2TE sets even better this time around. He gives us another dominant red zone target. He gives us another complete weapon. He can out physical DBs and LBs for short and intermediate passes. He has speed and athleticism the threaten the seam deep as well as outside the hashes with his 6'5 frame and ridiculous 35" arms and fluid athleticism. We just talked about punching dominant defenses and Jermichael is a great physical blocker inline and down field and takes pride in it. He is a great pass catching playmaker and important for the physical tone we must establish against menacing defenses. He like Gronk is a complete and elite TE. If Gronk gets injured we still have an elite TE to run any formation. Nicks and Finley will set a tone against defenses while taking the passing game to another level the NFL hasn't seen due to Brady having a clean pocket to step up in. Which also keeps him at the top of his game while providing another weapon and helping the young talent develop. All while not breaking the bank or costing very high draft picks. Finley won't cost Graham $$ while we're getting Graham like talent. Nicks we can get for Mallett and a #3. Small price for most dominant guard in the NFL. Maybe we don't get Johnson but Nicks could help our passing game even more than Andre Johnson by giving the best QB ever a clean pocket for a change.

I'm all for improving the OL, and Carl Nicks may be all that you say, but he missed most of 2013 and has a $9.3M cap hit for 2014 ($10.1M in 2015 and 2016), with $7M in dead money if traded. It seems problematic, to put it mildly.

Carl Nicks apparently contracted MRSA after surgery and they don't even know if he can play this season, let alone be traded with all of the financial implications that incurs. the likelihood ofr him coming to New England is slightly less than Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson both coming here. I can't wish the summer away but i also can't wait until the Silly Season is over.

I will say that there is at least some reason for the Johnson speculation with their contract dispute, his desire to win, and the BOB connection, as far as Nicks goes it is fantasy football.

Ivan said:

Carl Nicks apparently contracted MRSA after surgery and they don't even know if he can play this season, let alone be traded with all of the financial implications that incurs. the likelihood ofr him coming to New England is slightly less than Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson both coming here. I can't wish the summer away but i also can't wait until the Silly Season is over.

I will say that there is at least some reason for the Johnson speculation with their contract dispute, his desire to win, and the BOB connection, as far as Nicks goes it is fantasy football.

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If we can just trade for Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Carl Nicks and Jimmy Graham we'll be well positioned to make a deep playoff run this year. Especially since we've made a deep playoff run for the past 3 years.

McCourty extension

mayoclinic said:

If we can just trade for Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Carl Nicks and Jimmy Graham we'll be well positioned to make a deep playoff run this year. Especially since we've made a deep playoff run for the past 3 years.

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Add in Suh and Robert Quinn and i would feel much better about it......................

mayoclinic said:

I personally consider WR to be one of the more fungible positions, and I consider it ridiculously over-valued in today's NFL. I completely agree with you about being driven crazy by the "all problems can be solved by adding a receiver" philosophy. I like our WR group. I personally value TEs (and RBs with receiving skills) much more than WRs, even those who are primarily receiving options, because I think they create much more versatility for the offense.

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Amen, Amen Amen. You couldn't have said it better. In fact that opening sentence should be made into a sticky and we all should be forced to read it before we can reply to a post. As good a player as Julio Jones turned out to be, I will always believe that Thomas Dimitriov will always regret not taking BB's advice and keeping those 4 or 5 picks he gave up to get him.

As for Housler, I think that TE depth is an area of concern, and he's a decent young player with the chance to excel, so I would be interested in picking him up if he becomes available and the price is reasonable. There will be differences on what constitutes "reasonable", but a day 3 pick or a Mallett trade doesn't seem out of the question to me.

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Kudos to the Cardinals if they end up getting a 7th rounder for Housler. Besides the more I think about it, the more I doubt BOB will let him go. If there is any HC in the league more likely to keep 4 TE's on the roster, its our own BOB. And if Housler can't make a 4 man group, he is likely not worth spending even a 7th rounder.

As for a "throw away" trade for Mallet, I wouldn't do it. I see him having more value to us, ultimat
ely as a comp pick in the 2016 draft. If he signs next year with someone and wins a starting job, he would be worth a 3rd rounder. Not something to throw away on a flyer acquisition.

I would agree with you and the great majority that it seems we still have some work to do at the TE position. But I have to tell you I'm becoming more and more comfortable with going into TC with what we have.

BTW- Just a thought. It could be that James Devlin could be used more in the H-back role this season. To say his receiving skills were surprisingly good last season would be a vast understatement. It will interesting to see if HIS role expands in TC. Binoculars are going to be a must for THIS camp

patfanken said:

Kudos to the Cardinals if they end up getting a 7th rounder for Housler. Besides the more I think about it, the more I doubt BOB will let him go. If there is any HC in the league more likely to keep 4 TE's on the roster, its our own BOB.

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Ken, I think you've gotten Housler's team confused -- he's on the Cardinals with new coach Bruce Arians, a particularly bad match for his talents:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...cking-is-the-primary-function-for-tight-ends/

patchick said:

Ken, I think you've gotten Housler's team confused -- he's on the Cardinals with new coach Bruce Arians, a particularly bad match for his talents:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...cking-is-the-primary-function-for-tight-ends/

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That's a big OOOOOPS, PC. Thanks for the correction.

mayoclinic said:

If we can just trade for Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Carl Nicks and Jimmy Graham we'll be well positioned to make a deep playoff run this year. Especially since we've made a deep playoff run for the past 3 years.

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Nobody said all those guys but one blockbuster is very possible. I'm aware Nicks cap hit but there are restructures. Mrsa heals. Only reason bucs would shop him is memory of a wasted season for the $$ they would like to move on from. Buds already at salary anyways and a restructure saves them some further cap hit. Even if his cap hit is 9mil for us which it won't because there would be a restructure, isn't MANKINS cap hit over 10 mil? MANKINS may play hard,try his best and do his job but he isn't the force Nicks is. Carl Nicks reestablishes the line of scrimmage,strikes fear in BadA$$ Defensive Lineman, is that rare game changer as as an OLineman and came up big in the saints super bowl run. Being a lineman he is more likely to be dealt than an Elite playmaking WR who is looked at and treated like gold and royalty on par with Franchise QBs! Nicks is far more likely to be dealt than a WR. BUT COULD HAVE THE SAME IMPACT AS A WR! He would send a rippling effect across our OLine making it better. I would rather acquire a difference maker like a Nicks/Johnson that makes others around him better than spend $10 mil on 4 has beens that make ZERO IMPACT COMBINED!We could have a CARL NICKS or all of these useless players ,Adrian Wilson/andre carter/will smith/plethora of WRs. Carl Nicks makes whole OLine better,allows others play more natural positions,sets a physical attacking tone, gives Brady a clean pocket and time which makes WRs better and allows Brady to dissect defenses while draining confidence of normally dominant ferocious defenses and passrushes that are not used to being bullied around the way our OLine would do them.