Who will be the starting safety opposite Devin McCourty?

supafly · Jul 9, 2014

We may end up adding or switching out a depth role in the safety grouping, but that's about all I could envision myself.

supafly · Jul 9, 2014

Brady6 said:
I like Harmon, and agree he seems to be the likely starter but I have concerns about his coverage. On the season, he was targeted 12 times and allowed 8 receptions for 99 yards. His 66.67% completion rating against was tied with Brandon Spikes for the highest on the team for players targeted 10+ times.

My opinion is that he's been expected to hold down the job for awhile now, although some will disagree. While the plan doesn't appear to be too exciting to us, there had to have been some semblance of a plan in place nonetheless, and I believe that is Duron Harmon.

Obviously, I don't know if he'll work out or not, but it's hard for me to envision anyone else on the roster currently beating him for the starting job come week one.

Deus Irae · Jul 9, 2014

Brady6 said:
He was targeted 58 times resulting in 39 receptions for 453 yards. Which is not impressive by any stretch of the imagination but not as bad as you imply.

Dude, you seriously need to learn to watch games instead of looking at numbers in a vacuum. And 39 receptions in 58 targets is a 67% completion rate, which is the percentage that has you 'concerned' with Harmon.

Chung was not good. Get over it.

Brady6 · Jul 9, 2014

Deus Irae said:
Dude, you seriously need to learn to watch games instead of looking at numbers in a vacuum. And 39 receptions in 58 targets is a 67% completion rate, which is the percentage that has you 'concerned' with Harmon.

Chung was not good. Get over it.

I am not advocating for Chung. I do not think that he is that good at all. In fact I see him as 50/50 to make the roster and if he does it would be as a special teams player primarily. In 2010 we were running a different scheme with more zone and less man - Chung was a much better player in that scheme. I am not going to say he was horrible because he was not in my opinion in 2010 and down the stretch in 2011.

RayClay · Jul 9, 2014

I think it will be Harmon with Chung getting some snaps. Don't know about Wilson, he just disappeared. Could be a lot of changes at the position, but Harmon should be apart of things no matter what.

MrNathanDrake · Jul 9, 2014

Harmon until proven otherwise.

Tavon Wilson should be cut. Logan Ryan could be the #2 CB. Browner is not a lock as a starting CB, and missing the first 4 games will give Ryan a chance to claim the starting role.

RayClay · Jul 9, 2014

Sicilian said:
I think what's happening with some people regarding their memories of Chung, is that they're confusing good play for a young player with good play overall. I think Chung in his first two seasons played well enough for many to think "This guy has the potential to get it, if he takes that next step." He showed flashes of thinking he could be a solid safety, and so there was reason to rate him positively in the context of a rookie/2nd year player.

Then the last two years happens, and he's shown to be a sub par safety overall. Now people look back and remember "Hey, he was pretty good his first two years!" when in reality he was only considered "good" because there was expectation he would continue to grow. Think of it as a form of confirmation bias. You remember things based on how you felt about the player at the time, not about how that player performed in relation to other players at his position.

That said, I still think Chung could have a spot on this team, if BB can keep him in a limited role on defense and he can carve out a role on ST. He just won't sniff a starting position, he's not that caliber of player in this league.

Everyone can have an opinion, and I'm not arguing that, but he injured his shoulder and for a guy who was considerably better at hitting than coverage, that's got to affect you.

I agree he could be a role player and special teams and if not, so what? It's well worth a shot. I don't see any world beating play at safety over the last few years besides McCourty.

Brady_to_Moss · Jul 9, 2014

No question harmon

Deus Irae · Jul 9, 2014

Brady6 said:
I am not advocating for Chung. I do not think that he is that good at all. In fact I see him as 50/50 to make the roster and if he does it would be as a special teams player primarily. In 2010 we were running a different scheme with more zone and less man - Chung was a much better player in that scheme. I am not going to say he was horrible because he was not in my opinion in 2010 and down the stretch in 2011.

You are overrating his earlier years and ignoring the reality of that time. You have tried to insinuate that Kontra was being a hypocrite about that when he wasn't, and you've ignored the obvious correlation between Harmon's "concern" percentage and the percentage from Chung when you claim he was better. In short, your arguments are steaming piles.

Chung sucked, because he couldn't cover worth a damn. It is what it is. It's bad enough I had to read all the crap around here from the people defending him at the time. I'd rather not have to relive that nonsense because people can't even admit to his poor play when it's years down the road.

Sticky Caulk · Jul 10, 2014

Brady6 said:
Define on the field for the Patriots, do you mean at all in any form or just as a starter? I think Chung is an very good special teams player personally, I think his battle is with Nate Ebner.

"Define on the field"? You go out of your way to make every discussion feel like court. On the field means on the field.

You want to argue that what I said about him being risky and reckless doesn't apply to his play on special teams because you'd rather not admit Chung did and always will suck.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81dba164/Chung-drops-the-ball

Oh.. what's that? Special teams? Check. Risky and reckless? Check. Player sucks? Check.

varjao · Jul 10, 2014

Tavon Wilson? Get ready for many of this

supafly · Jul 10, 2014

varjao said:
Tavon Wilson? Get ready for many of this

Just pathetic that a sandlot drawn up play like that could beat us, especially when Wilson's only real assignment was to not get beat deep.

What's even more pathetic is the fact that he promptly went right out and did the exact same thing in the very next week's game only 5 minutes into the contest, like he learned absolutely nothing from seeing the play during practice and on SportsCenter over 100x.

Ivan · Jul 10, 2014

supafly said:
My opinion is that he's been expected to hold down the job for awhile now, although some will disagree. While the plan doesn't appear to be too exciting to us, there had to have been some semblance of a plan in place nonetheless, and I believe that is Duron Harmon.

Obviously, I don't know if he'll work out or not, but it's hard for me to envision anyone else on the roster currently beating him for the starting job come week one.

yep, pretty much how i see it. they could try Ryan there and mix him in and see who wins out as the season goes on but from the looks of it at this point it is Harmon with Chung rotating in for obvious run downs.

Nunchucks · Jul 10, 2014

I voted for Harmon and I fully expect him to win the job, but it would be nice to see Wilson step up and take the position. The guy has great measurables, he just cannot figure out how to stop the deep ball...or couldn't at least. The safety opposite McCourty this year will not have to play deep, so in that respect, maybe Wilson will be able to make some noise.

I suspect that Wilson and Chung are kind of playing for the same spot....also, showing one play where Wilson gets beat deep is not really fair, as that happens everybody

Kontradiction · Jul 10, 2014

Deus Irae said:
You are overrating his earlier years and ignoring the reality of that time. You have tried to insinuate that Kontra was being a hypocrite about that when he wasn't, and you've ignored the obvious correlation between Harmon's "concern" percentage and the percentage from Chung when you claim he was better. In short, your arguments are steaming piles.

Chung sucked, because he couldn't cover worth a damn. It is what it is. It's bad enough I had to read all the crap around here from the people defending him at the time. I'd rather not have to relive that nonsense because people can't even admit to his poor play when it's years down the road.

Not only could he not cover worth a damn, but he was too late to too many plays (which shows that he has trouble diagnosing what the offense is doing), overrated in run support, and took some bad angles that made James Sanders look like Lawrence Taylor in comparison. He was awful.

varjao said:
Tavon Wilson? Get ready for many of this

...and this is the only reason why Chung may stick here. Wilson has been even worse than Chung has. Multiple mental errors and this game was the exclamation point. WTF was he doing as Rice just casually strolled right past him? What the hell did he THINK his assignment was?

PatriotsInGA · Jul 10, 2014

Brady6 said:
I am not advocating for Chung. I do not think that he is that good at all. In fact I see him as 50/50 to make the roster and if he does it would be as a special teams player primarily. In 2010 we were running a different scheme with more zone and less man - Chung was a much better player in that scheme. I am not going to say he was horrible because he was not in my opinion in 2010 and down the stretch in 2011.

Considering I'm arguing with your opinion it will be hard to change it, but I completely disagree with the bolded part.

If I remember one play from the Chung era it was that he wasn't fast enough to get across the field and wasn't strong enough to jar the ball loose from Mario Manningham on his sideline catch in the 4th quarter of SB46 after Moore got beat.

If you consider that to be not horrible down the stretch, then I am terrified to find out what you think is horrible down the stretch. Chung had his moments when he was a starter (just like most starters do), but was usually mediocre. He was drafted in the 2nd round, but gave us the performance of a 6/7th rounder. Sure he's a solid ST'er, but this thread is about safeties.

Nunchucks · Jul 10, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Not only could he not cover worth a damn, but he was too late to too many plays (which shows that he has trouble diagnosing what the offense is doing), overrated in run support, and took some bad angles that made James Sanders look like Lawrence Taylor in comparison. He was awful.

...and this is the only reason why Chung may stick here. Wilson has been even worse than Chung has. Multiple mental errors and this game was the exclamation point. WTF was he doing as Rice just casually strolled right past him? What the hell did he THINK his assignment was?

Shocker that a rookie from a small school would have trouble diagnosing plays.

Sicilian · Jul 10, 2014

Nunchucks said:
Shocker that a rookie from a small school would have trouble diagnosing plays.

It also didn't help that the other safety on that play was Nate Ebner. I doubt there was much effective communication going on there.

Tavon Wilson isn't a bad safety because of those two plays. He's a bad safety because he apparently didn't improve any from year 1 to year 2. If he had, he likely would have seen a few more defensive snaps last year.

Kontradiction · Jul 10, 2014

PatriotsInGA said:
Considering I'm arguing with your opinion it will be hard to change it, but I completely disagree with the bolded part.

If I remember one play from the Chung era it was that he wasn't fast enough to get across the field and wasn't strong enough to jar the ball loose from Mario Manningham on his sideline catch in the 4th quarter of SB46 after Moore got beat.

If you consider that to be not horrible down the stretch, then I am terrified to find out what you think is horrible down the stretch. Chung had his moments when he was a starter (just like most starters do), but was usually mediocre. He was drafted in the 2nd round, but gave us the performance of a 6/7th rounder. Sure he's a solid ST'er, but this thread is about safeties.

Just take into account that Chung was the starting safety and supposed "leader" of the secondary that finished that season ranked as the second worst pass defense of all time. That alone supports your argument.

primetime · Jul 10, 2014

Brady6 said:
Personally, I did not think his quality of play was that poor in 2010 and 2011, the past 2 seasons I agree he has been one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL.

Needless to say I voted for Tavon Wilson to win the job so it is not as if I am a huge Pat Chung advocate, in fact I give him a 50/50 shot at even making the team.

Chung could never cover a lick (and I was one of the people pointing this out back in the 2010 and 2011, when hope colored others' eyes). The secondary was a total dumpster fire in 2010 and historically bad in 2011, and Chung played no small role in making that so. He's awful and always has been, I can't fathom any reason to bring him back other than special teams. If he's playing defense, something has gone horribly wrong.

Tavon Wilson hasn't shown anything since he entered the league to make me think he's capable of even playing safety, let alone starting, in the NFL.

Harmon, who seemed capable of playing at a decent if unspectacular level last season, and Ryan, who is untested at safety but now superfluous with the embarrassment of riches at corner and has the ballhawking instinct necessary to play well as a backstop, are the only two players who have the potential to hold down the spot and not be a distinct weakness in an otherwise exceptional secondary.

Who will be the starting safety opposite Devin McCourty?

Who will be the starting safety opposite Devin McCourty?

Duron Harmon

Pat Chung

Tavon Wilson

Logan Ryan

Nate Ebner (dark horse)

None of the above

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