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Asking for your support
 

Is Matthew Slater a lock to make the 2014 roster?

  • Yes, absolutely

    Votes: 45 55.6%
  • Near lock: most likely, but not quite 100%

    Votes: 31 38.3%
  • Probably: more than 50%, but not a lock

    Votes: 4 4.9%
  • Unlikely: less than 50% chance of making the roster

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Total voters
    81
  • Poll closed .
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Mistake #1: using PFF as a source.

Mistake #2 is posting copyrighted material from sites like that, which IIRC is strictly prohibited
 
PFF's not terrible, it's just not good to use to rank players against one another because all those grades were awarded by different people who cover each team. It's like comparing an A from one professor to another one without having any inkling of how difficult a grader that professor is. However, PFF is useful in that the people doing the analysis watch the players very closely, meaning a player with a good grade almost certainly performed well. It's just not possible to use those grades to rate players against one another. PFF's analysis of a single game is much better than their season-long "metrics" for this reason.

Basically, PFF lets us know that Marcus Easley, Justin Bethel, and Matt Slater were all very good coverage players last year, but because each player was graded by a different person, there's no way of saying that one is definitively any better than the others despite the obfuscation by faux-quantification.



Disagree completely, PFF is the most worthless site out there on the subject of football. It is a garbage site with make believe metrics, it's strictly for those who play fantasy football and believe that their make believe metrics actually have some relevance when in truth they have zero value.
 
Disagree completely, PFF is the most worthless site out there on the subject of football. It is a garbage site with make believe metrics, it's strictly for those who play fantasy football and believe that their make believe metrics actually have some relevance when in truth they have zero value.
Why do you always make these fantasy football comments when you do not appear to have any clue how it works. Fantasy football is one of the most simplistic things a football fan can do. You get points for basic stats like yardage, touchdowns, sacks, etc. PFF is all about advanced stats. These things could not be more different.
 
Mistake #2 is posting copyrighted material from sites like that, which IIRC is strictly prohibited
It is prohibited to post an image from a website with the websites name referenced on the image?
 
It is prohibited to post an image from a website with the websites name referenced on the image?

If it's a free website, you should post a link to the page it came from.

If it's behind a paywall, you should not post it.
 
If it's a free website, you should post a link to the page it came from.
I actually did not get it off the site, it was an image from a Google search.
 
Why do you always make these fantasy football comments when you do not appear to have any clue how it works. Fantasy football is one of the most simplistic things a football fan can do. You get points for basic stats like yardage, touchdowns, sacks, etc. PFF is all about advanced stats. These things could not be more different.

It's not "advanced stats." It's qualitative analysis made up to look like statistics. Think grading essays using a rubric. That doesn't mean I think PFF is useless, it just means I think it tries to be something it's not.
 
It's not "advanced stats." It's qualitative analysis made up to look like statistics. Think grading essays using a rubric. That doesn't mean I think PFF is useless, it just means I think it tries to be something it's not.

For the record, I agree entirely with what you're saying about PFF.

I do find it mildly amusing that even they had to have realized their own errors prior to posting ridiculous articles about how no-name NFL players are at the top of their "list," while a future first ballot HOF candidate leading his team to a 14-2 record (at the time) is at the bottom of the list.

Had they decided to just nix idiotic reports such as that one, they'd likely have a lot more credibility in my opinion.
 
For the record, I agree entirely with what you're saying about PFF.

I do find it mildly amusing that even they had to have realized their own errors prior to posting ridiculous articles about how no-name NFL players are at the top of their "list," while a future first ballot HOF candidate leading his team to a 14-2 record (at the time) is at the bottom of the list.

Had they decided to just nix idiotic reports such as that one, they'd likely have a lot more credibility in my opinion.

PFF embodies everything that i think is wrong with the current state of analysis some people try to perform on football. They believe that like baseball football is subject to some kind pf sabermetric analysis and that it is just a matter of numbers, when in truth, at least imo, football is a sport that is completely interdependent and that kind of approach strips it of the necessary context to analyze what happens on the field. It is not pitcher against hitter it is eleven guys executing in sync that determines whether or not a play is run successfully and the numbers that come from that, none of it is done in the kind of vacuum that sites like PFF try to pretend it is done in. For me that approach is completely worthless and as such I pretty much dismiss anything that utilizes it to make or support an argument, or attempts to analyze it with that approach. That said the use of it is only going to grow because of the role it plays in fantasy analysis and all people like me who reject it can really do is ignore the use of it and other lame attempts at reducing football to phony metrics.
 
For the record, I agree entirely with what you're saying about PFF.

I do find it mildly amusing that even they had to have realized their own errors prior to posting ridiculous articles about how no-name NFL players are at the top of their "list," while a future first ballot HOF candidate leading his team to a 14-2 record (at the time) is at the bottom of the list.

Had they decided to just nix idiotic reports such as that one, they'd likely have a lot more credibility in my opinion.

It is also the site that named Kareem Mckenzie the best player in football a few years back, and named Ryan Wendell one of the best centers in football two years ago. It's aa joke of a football site
 
It is also the site that named Kareem Mckenzie the best player in football a few years back, and named Ryan Wendell one of the best centers in football two years ago. It's aa joke of a football site

Yep, that's what I was referring to, when they had McKenzie coming in first, and Brady somewhere at the bottom 20s. I couldn't remember who the "no-name" was, however.
 
It is not pitcher against hitter it is eleven guys executing in sync that determines whether or not a play is run successfully and the numbers that come from that, none of it is done in the kind of vacuum that sites like PFF try to pretend it is done in.

This is pretty much how I feel about the entire idea behind PFF. Baseball can use numbers to determine success much easier because individual performances make up what happens during a game. Football gives no true way to use numbers to give individual alalyisis. Knowshon Moreno can look great in one offense and like trash in another. I doubt he'll look half as incredible this season, yet he will be the exact same player. Move Ortiz to another team and he still gets his hits.

edit: PFF likes to write articles about why one player nobody really considers is so good or why someone that is obviously good, isn't.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/05/23/missed-the-list-dez-bryant/

That's a joke, right? Nope. Yet again PFF acts as if they see things nobody else can. That top 101 list that doesn't feature Bryant has Brady at #90 in the NFL. Philip Rivers is #43.
 
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PFF embodies everything that i think is wrong with the current state of analysis some people try to perform on football. They believe that like baseball football is subject to some kind pf sabermetric analysis and that it is just a matter of numbers, when in truth, at least imo, football is a sport that is completely interdependent and that kind of approach strips it of the necessary context to analyze what happens on the field. It is not pitcher against hitter it is eleven guys executing in sync that determines whether or not a play is run successfully and the numbers that come from that, none of it is done in the kind of vacuum that sites like PFF try to pretend it is done in. For me that approach is completely worthless and as such I pretty much dismiss anything that utilizes it to make or support an argument, or attempts to analyze it with that approach. That said the use of it is only going to grow because of the role it plays in fantasy analysis and all people like me who reject it can really do is ignore the use of it and other lame attempts at reducing football to phony metrics.

This isn't even what PFF tries to do analytically, and you're making the mistake they want you to make by equating numbers with true statistical analysis - which, I'll add, is very powerful even in football. Statistical analysis generally requires probabilistic statements - we can never be one hundred percent sure that X is true, but we can say that it will occur given A, B, and C with N degree of certainty. Generally, there's a great deal of statistical error - randomness - in these models when it comes to sports (or anything, really) and the job of the statistician/sabermetrician is to find what other variables can go into the model to better explain phenomena. To get this sort of analysis, you need to read research papers of the kind that are presented at the Sloan MIT Analytics conference. DVOA and DYAR and the like come closer because they use a model to generate advanced analytics, and those analytics feel reliable, but outside of QBs, they're mostly team metrics.

Pro Football Focus, on the other hand, has volunteers sitting there and watching each play of a game and grading players on every play. This is inherently valuable. I don't watch every play to see if Dan Connolly messed up, but the PFF folks do. Now, of course, they're working with incomplete information so they have to make subjective calls as to whether someone screwed up. We don't know what the rubric they're grading from looks like. Like any grading, it's subject to individual preference - an A in one class is not an A in another class, just like a +10 for one grader at PFF may not be a +10 for another grader. Tom Brady and Drew Brees could have the same exact game but the former could receive a +8 and the latter a +11 just because the Patriots grader is more stingy or critical than the Saints grader.

Moreover, the numbers aren't really scalar metrics, despite appearing as such. There's no logical way to differentiate said +11 from +8; does it mean that Brees was "3" better than Brady? 3 of what? It's really just a nominative stand-in to say "this player performed very well" or "this player was slightly above average" or "this player was crap." This is why presenting their grades as sortable and rankable is total bunk, done to generate conversation and website clicks (Brady is #98 and Rivers is #44, for example)

However, the value is that you know that players who were awarded good grades or bad grades for a given game probably played well or played poorly because their performance was pored over by people who have a lot more free time than any of us (except maybe Brady6). PFF's volunteers are the sort of weird OCD people who spend an hour grading the performance of a right guard 16 weeks a year. Just by virtue of having their eyes on every play multiple times, they see performances that we don't just because we don't have time to rewatch games over and over. It's an alternative to a lot of the narrative-driven analysis you get at places like ESPN, where groupthink about a particular player overrides the truth. "Tony Romo isn't clutch" is the perfect example of that. You just have to triangulate PFF analysis with other sources.

That's why I like the site, but it's important to keep in mind that their grades aren't statistics (some of their advanced statistics are indeed statistics, but it's hard to differentiate them and they aren't transparent with their calculations or rubric) and that the grades should be used as a general guide to who's a good player rather than as a way to say good player X is better than good player Y because that's an exercise in futility no matter what stats you're using to justify it.

For example, JJ Watt, Lavonte David, Darrelle Revis, and Richard Sherman all graded out extremely well in PFF and they're known to be outstanding players anyways. Revis is interesting because the narrative analysis was that he had "a down year" last season, but this analysis says Devin McCourty graded very well. Then there are some guys you never really hear about who graded very well like Stephen Tulloch, Dontari Poe, Damon Harrison, and Jason Kelce. That's interesting, and it encourages me to take a closer look at those players from other sources, like their local media or fanbase who may already know that they're a diamond in the rough who you never hear about because they're not part of the narrative.
 
This isn't even what PFF tries to do analytically, and you're making the mistake they want you to make by equating numbers with true statistical analysis - which, I'll add, is very powerful even in football. Statistical analysis generally requires probabilistic statements - we can never be one hundred percent sure that X is true, but we can say that it will occur given A, B, and C with N degree of certainty. Generally, there's a great deal of statistical error - randomness - in these models when it comes to sports (or anything, really) and the job of the statistician/sabermetrician is to find what other variables can go into the model to better explain phenomena. To get this sort of analysis, you need to read research papers of the kind that are presented at the Sloan MIT Analytics conference. DVOA and DYAR and the like come closer because they use a model to generate advanced analytics, and those analytics feel reliable, but outside of QBs, they're mostly team metrics.

Pro Football Focus, on the other hand, has volunteers sitting there and watching each play of a game and grading players on every play. This is inherently valuable. I don't watch every play to see if Dan Connolly messed up, but the PFF folks do. Now, of course, they're working with incomplete information so they have to make subjective calls as to whether someone screwed up. We don't know what the rubric they're grading from looks like. Like any grading, it's subject to individual preference - an A in one class is not an A in another class, just like a +10 for one grader at PFF may not be a +10 for another grader. Tom Brady and Drew Brees could have the same exact game but the former could receive a +8 and the latter a +11 just because the Patriots grader is more stingy or critical than the Saints grader.

Moreover, the numbers aren't really scalar metrics, despite appearing as such. There's no logical way to differentiate said +11 from +8; does it mean that Brees was "3" better than Brady? 3 of what? It's really just a nominative stand-in to say "this player performed very well" or "this player was slightly above average" or "this player was crap." This is why presenting their grades as sortable and rankable is total bunk, done to generate conversation and website clicks (Brady is #98 and Rivers is #44, for example)

However, the value is that you know that players who were awarded good grades or bad grades for a given game probably played well or played poorly because their performance was pored over by people who have a lot more free time than any of us (except maybe Brady6). PFF's volunteers are the sort of weird OCD people who spend an hour grading the performance of a right guard 16 weeks a year. Just by virtue of having their eyes on every play multiple times, they see performances that we don't just because we don't have time to rewatch games over and over. It's an alternative to a lot of the narrative-driven analysis you get at places like ESPN, where groupthink about a particular player overrides the truth. "Tony Romo isn't clutch" is the perfect example of that. You just have to triangulate PFF analysis with other sources.

That's why I like the site, but it's important to keep in mind that their grades aren't statistics (some of their advanced statistics are indeed statistics, but it's hard to differentiate them and they aren't transparent with their calculations or rubric) and that the grades should be used as a general guide to who's a good player rather than as a way to say good player X is better than good player Y because that's an exercise in futility no matter what stats you're using to justify it.

For example, JJ Watt, Lavonte David, Darrelle Revis, and Richard Sherman all graded out extremely well in PFF and they're known to be outstanding players anyways. Revis is interesting because the narrative analysis was that he had "a down year" last season, but this analysis says Devin McCourty graded very well. Then there are some guys you never really hear about who graded very well like Stephen Tulloch, Dontari Poe, Damon Harrison, and Jason Kelce. That's interesting, and it encourages me to take a closer look at those players from other sources, like their local media or fanbase who may already know that they're a diamond in the rough who you never hear about because they're not part of the narrative.


Primetime, we obviously disagree about the value of PFF but that's an excellent post and an accurate take on the subject imo. Unfortunately most of those who cite PFF as a source and as a credible gauge of what is taking place do so without putting it into the context you just did, and that's really what my issue is with it. More and more there are people who are taking their numbers and acting as if they are the bottom line and the determining factor in evaluating player's and imo that is as wrong as it gets and reduces discussions of football to factors that barely reflect the truth of the topic at hand. As I have said many times football is entirely interdependent and using yards per carry the same way one would use a batting average is as wrongheaded as it gets imo. That's not to say that there is absolutely no place or use for any kind of stat in football, in fact i can think of one that spoke loudly just a couple of years ago, Brandon Lloyd's YAC, which IIRC was 1/2 a yard per reception, in other words he fell forward successfully after each catch. I gave credence to that stat because it was simply so mindblowing and actually accurately reflected what I was watching on the field. On the other hand there are so many flaws in the ways in which PFF uses and makes "statistically" based arguments that the site is virtually worthless, and the evaluation of Tom Brady's performance last season demonstrates that fully as he put a team decimated by injury and loaded with inexperienced players on his back and carried them all the way to the AFCCG, a feat PFF then told us demonstrated how he was on the decline and not an elite QB anymore, when in truth he should have been second in the MVP voting and his performance should have been taken as one only a truly elite QB could have given. And when a site that is trying to present itself as an accurate barometer of the sport they are reviewing is as far off the mark as PFF consistently is then they ultimately lose all credibility, which imo is what they have done. I'm not a fan of statistical analysis in football for the reasons i have named on numerous occasions, however I do think that if someone is going to try and make a statistically based argument then Football Outsiders is a far more credible site but people still need to keep in mind that they are a tool and not the determining factor in any discussion of the game and the players.
 
I voted & posted that Slater was a near lock. The only caveat being some unexpected youngun' who could do the job nearly as well, an unlikely 2014 scenario in my limited view.

I would like to move the discussion to what Reiss alluded to, a possible extension in this, his last contract year. This is a quandary because as patsfanken and Brady6 have mentioned, Slater is cap pricey for a guy whose opportunity to make plays has been reduced by rule changes. I do not expect to see him extended, and if not he's likely on another team with high cap space in 2015. I say this as someone who values his contribution as a player and very much wants him on the 2014 Patriots. It will be interesting to see what the Pats decide regarding an extension.
 
I voted & posted that Slater was a near lock. The only caveat being some unexpected youngun' who could do the job nearly as well, an unlikely 2014 scenario in my limited view.

I would like to move the discussion to what Reiss alluded to, a possible extension in this, his last contract year. This is a quandary because as patsfanken and Brady6 have mentioned, Slater is cap pricey for a guy whose opportunity to make plays has been reduced by rule changes. I do not expect to see him extended, and if not he's likely on another team with high cap space in 2015. I say this as someone who values his contribution as a player and very much wants him on the 2014 Patriots. It will be interesting to see what the Pats decide regarding an extension.

Excellent point, PWP. The rule change may certainly argue towards him not being extended, although in the end my personal opinion is that he will be kept for another 2-3 seasons.

One aspect that we may be overlooking which is just speculation on my part, is the aspect of leadership. On a BB coached team, I believe this is very important, and will be one of the obvious positives towards an argument of keeping him. Of course we've also seen plenty of examples where these kinds of guys are let go just as well, which brings us back to your original point that it will definitely be interesting to watch in the coming year or so.
 
Definitely a lock no question about it. He is fast and he really has not done anything that would put him in danger of being cut. A rookie would really half to step up if we were to cut Slater. I don't see that happening this year.
 
I voted & posted that Slater was a near lock. The only caveat being some unexpected youngun' who could do the job nearly as well, an unlikely 2014 scenario in my limited view.

I would like to move the discussion to what Reiss alluded to, a possible extension in this, his last contract year. This is a quandary because as patsfanken and Brady6 have mentioned, Slater is cap pricey for a guy whose opportunity to make plays has been reduced by rule changes. I do not expect to see him extended, and if not he's likely on another team with high cap space in 2015. I say this as someone who values his contribution as a player and very much wants him on the 2014 Patriots. It will be interesting to see what the Pats decide regarding an extension.
Great post PWP – I agree completely with what you have said here, I personally, like Slater and what he brings to the team and I have no problem with his cap hit being what it is. I just would not label him inexpensive by any stretch of the imagination; he is well compensated for his duties. As far as extending him, that is a tough call, he relies a lot on his speed, and I have to believe that will diminish as he enters his 30s. Will he still be an effective player if that happens is really the questions. I personally, see Slater as a player who had a window of time in his mid 20s where he would receive a multiyear deal and after this deal I think because of the role he plays he is looking at a year-to-year existence in the NFL. I could be wrong, time will tell, I do remember Kraft saying something about Slater being a player deserving of an extension at one point not too long ago.

No knock on Slater but my concerns are more with Revis, McCourty, Solder, Vereen, Ridley, and others in terms of an extension.
 
Personally, I think that those who dismiss PFF are doing so because they are either unable or unwilling to read between the lines. I do not see a ton of value in PFF rankings or even their articles but they do offer some in-depth stats that you cannot find other places. Stats like all things are open to interpretation you can determine how weight to put into them, but to outright dismiss a site that offers what PFF offers readers is very shortsighted. If it is good enough for Mike Reiss and Greg Bedard, it is good enough for me to read.
 
How is that? Show me another player that does what Slater does that makes more than him, to make Slater inexpensive?

No. YOU are the one who made the claims that Slater wasn't inexpensive and that he had the highest cap hit of any "core four special teams player in the NFL who doesn't take any offensive or defensive snaps". That was YOUR claim. Back it up or shut up already.

No you are wrong about everything, including my changing the story, we opted to draft players to replace veterans in lieu of resigning them.

2011
Light – Solder
Hoyer – Mallett
Green-Ellis – Ridley
Woodhead – Vereen

2012
Carter – Jones
Anderson – Bequette
Chung – Wilson

2013
Spikes - Collins
Mesko – Allen
Gregory – Harmon
Scott - Buchanan

2014 (Potentially)
Mallett – Garopollo
Connolly – Stork
Cannon – Fleming
White – Ridley or Vereen

Wow. You just can't admit to being wrong about anything, can you? First off, you are lying because you did NOT claim that the Patriots opted to draft players to replace veterans in lieu of re-signing them. You made the following claim "the Patriots have let many key vets go and drafted their replacement 1 year prior to the vet's contract expiring".

There are 3 key parts there that have to be met for your claim to be valid:
The player leaving has to be a vet that the Patriots let walk
The vet had to be considered a "KEY" player.
The player coming in was brought in 1 year in advance of said vet being let go.

ALL 3 have to be met for your statement to be valid. Unfortunately for you, that's just not the case for most of what you posted. The only ones it could be considered valid for is Green-Ellis/Woodhead. Both of which I already acknowledged. The rest, you are flat out wrong.

Matt Light retired. The Pats brought Solder in to replace him. That doesn't fit your claim of not paying a vet..

Carter and Anderson don't fit either since Jones and Bequette weren't brought in 1 year in advance.

Tavon Wilson wan't drafted to replace Chung. He was brought in to provide depth at the position where there was none.

Buchanon wasn't brought in 1 year in advance to replace Scott. Nor could it be claimed that Scott was a "key player".

Allen for Meskop doesn't jive because there was no over-lap the way you stated your whole claim.

We've already talked about how Collins doesn't fit because they play different positions. Furthermore, Collins was brought in to cover TEs. Something that Spikes couldn't do. Calling it a replacement is laughable. Not to mention untrue since Spikes was let go for maturity reasons, not because the Patriots didn't want to pay him.


What is your point, we could have resigned them, we did not. We opted for the less expensive rookie contract.

My point was plain and clear. They don't fit your claim. No matter how badly you want them to. Go back and read WTF you said. I've quoted you directly on it.


So Collins is not going to be in the starting lineup instead of Spikes this season? That would make him the replacement, just because they have different styles of play does not mean he was not drafted to fill the hole in the starting lineup left by Spikes.

No it doesn't make him Spike's replacement. Spikes replacement is whomever plays MLB, which would be MAYO, not Collins. You clearly don't understand what the word replacement means.


No then why do you draft a LB in the second round the year before one of your starters is slated to become a free agent? Wow, it is hurting my head talking to you, I need to stop now.
Why do you draft a LB in the 2nd round? Because your team doesn't have depth at the position and you have no one on your roster that has the ability to cover TEs/RBs out of the backfield. So you add a talented player like Collins in hopes that he can bring depth and coverage skills.

You're head is hurting because you keep making up more and more BS instead of looking at the facts of the situation. You're so desperate to look like you know what you're talking about, you insist on changing your story again and again. Like you have..[/QUOTE]
 
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