Its official, Jimmy Graham is franchised as a TE, not WR

chasa · Jul 2, 2014

The arbitration ruling is in, and according to the judge jimmy graham is getting franchise money for a TE, not a QR.

Good news for the saints short term, and for most teams with TE's catching lots of passes.

Bad news for tight ends, and the saints long term, as JimmyG probably wont want to stick around a place that going to underpay him in his eyes.

Interesting since the pats signed gronk longterm very early, at much less then what graham is going to get

Kontradiction · Jul 2, 2014

This is the correct ruling. Graham is a TE and therefore should be franchised as a TE. I will give credit to him and his agent for being ultra creative, though.

varjao · Jul 2, 2014

Ok, since we have nothing football related to talk about, if you could choose a TE for the next 5 years, despite contracts, looking only production, potential and durability, who would you choose, Gronk or Graham?

Wheelman · Jul 2, 2014

I feel bad for Jimmy Graham. He can't even block. He's taken out of run blocking plays(ie wild card game he's taken off in place of Benjamin Watson), he's a wide receiver in my eyes not a tight end. And all these mediots and analysts who says Jimmy Graham is the best tight end in the NFL are just dumb. Hey you can say Jimmy Graham is better than the best tight end in the NFL(Gronk), people say Megatron is...no biggy! But stop calling him a damn tightend...guy can't block!

RayClay · Jul 2, 2014

The franchise designation will collapse one day. I hope they have an idea for a backup, or alteration.

Kontradiction · Jul 2, 2014

Wheelman said:
I feel bad for Jimmy Graham. He can't even block. He's taken out of run blocking plays(ie wild card game he's taken off in place of Benjamin Watson), he's a wide receiver in my eyes not a tight end. And all these mediots and analysts who says Jimmy Graham is the best tight end in the NFL are just dumb. Hey you can say Jimmy Graham is better than the best tight end in the NFL(Gronk), people say Megatron is...no biggy! But stop calling him a damn tightend...guy can't block!

That he sucks at blocking doesn't make him any less of a TE.

Wheelman · Jul 2, 2014

But like how many times is he in the slot or split out wide as opposed to like right next to a lineman.

He's a wide receiver in my eyes.

Sicilian · Jul 2, 2014

If we're going to call someone like Graham a tight end and not a wide receiver, we should probably distinguish between wide receivers and slot receivers too. Welker, Edelman, Amendola, these guys shouldn't be franchised based on the salaries of Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald etc. Either lump them all in, or split them all up. The rules right now seem kind of arbitrary to me. "We call you a tight end, so you get paid like a tight end." Not a huge fan of that.

Kontradiction · Jul 2, 2014

Wheelman said:
But like how many times is he in the slot or split out wide as opposed to like right next to a lineman.

He's a wide receiver in my eyes.

Gronk and Hernandez lined up all over the place too. Perhaps we should bring Gronk back to the table and start hammering out a Calvin Johnson type of contract with him?

Wheelman · Jul 2, 2014

Oh come on! You and I both know Gronk lined up next to a lineman far more often than Graham has.

If anything, if Gronk didn't get hurt he surely would deserve a Megatron contract. He's an elite player.

And for the record I never considered Hernandez a tight end.

chasa · Jul 2, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Gronk and Hernandez lined up all over the place too. Perhaps we should bring Gronk back to the table and start hammering out a Calvin Johnson type of contract with him?

don't be silly, we already gave gronk a contract, which he accepted. This is a case of a team telling a player he is something DESPITE numbers saying he is something else.

The ruling stated that Slot position was close enough to the linemen, that it doesn't count as being a WR.

If you count the number of times he split out wide, or in the slot, its much much higher, then when he lines up as a traditional TE.

Sicilian · Jul 2, 2014

chasa said:
The ruling stated that Slot position was close enough to the linemen, that it doesn't count as being a WR.

If that's the case, then we should have been able to franchise Welker at tight end money too.

ctpatsfan77 · Jul 2, 2014

Sicilian said:
If we're going to call someone like Graham a tight end and not a wide receiver, we should probably distinguish between wide receivers and slot receivers too. Welker, Edelman, Amendola, these guys shouldn't be franchised based on the salaries of Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald etc. Either lump them all in, or split them all up. The rules right now seem kind of arbitrary to me. "We call you a tight end, so you get paid like a tight end." Not a huge fan of that.

Even better, IIRC, the tag rules don't distinguish between OTs and interior linemen.

PatFanCraig · Jul 2, 2014

Surprise surprise. These TEs are catching tons of passes by default. Of course there's exceptions to the rule but TEs aren't given attention like true #1 WRs. Maybe a top notch #2 WR like Eric Decker. But again nobody is paying Decker like AJ Green,Calvin,Julio Jones or Bryant. Therefore no TE should be given top 5 WR $$. True #1 wideouts have something in common. They can beat a defense any easy there is. They can blow by 2DBs for a deep score or snag a deep pass when in double coverage with a deep safety waiting to break it up. They can repeatedly win intermediate range (that's where they and all dependable playmakers earn their rep mostly) and they are a threat to take a short catch and go the distance every time they catch it. Top #2 wideouts can sometimes do it all but at a lower level. But mostly they perform these plays at a high level but only possess some of these traits. Wallace is a treated deep threat but doesn't win intermediate routes consistently. Boldin wins consistently with routes over the middle but he isn't a deep threat and. And his rote depths aren't on par with the top guys due to speed. The top TEs can win intermediate routes and get good depth. They are deep threats due to ability to snag deep passes using size and length. However they aren't a threat to blow by coverage on any given play like Julio Jones or aj green or take a short one the distance. That's why Graham shouldn't be paid elite #1 $$. He lacks some of their ability.

Sicilian · Jul 2, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Surprise surprise. These TEs are catching tons of passes by default. Of course there's exceptions to the rule but TEs aren't given attention like true #1 WRs. Maybe a top notch #2 WR like Eric Decker. But again nobody is paying Decker like AJ Green,Calvin,Julio Jones or Bryant. Therefore no TE should be given top 5 WR $$. True #1 wideouts have something in common. They can beat a defense any easy there is. They can blow by 2DBs for a deep score or snag a deep pass when in double coverage with a deep safety waiting to break it up. They can repeatedly win intermediate range (that's where they and all dependable playmakers earn their rep mostly) and they are a threat to take a short catch and go the distance every time they catch it. Top #2 wideouts can sometimes do it all but at a lower level. But mostly they perform these plays at a high level but only possess some of these traits. Wallace is a treated deep threat but doesn't win intermediate routes consistently. Boldin wins consistently with routes over the middle but he isn't a deep threat and. And his rote depths aren't on par with the top guys due to speed. The top TEs can win intermediate routes and get good depth. They are deep threats due to ability to snag deep passes using size and length. However they aren't a threat to blow by coverage on any given play like Julio Jones or aj green or take a short one the distance. That's why Graham shouldn't be paid elite #1 $$. He lacks some of their ability.

The franchise tag isn't about telling a player that they are top five at their position. It's a tool for teams to hold onto a player when they can't hash out a deal in time. The deterrent to abuse that system is that the year to year rate is generally higher than you want to pay a player, and there's no long term security for the team (the tag number increases every consecutive year you use it on a player).

The player you used as an example, Eric Decker, would be franchised at that top five rate for wide receivers. He wouldn't deserve that much money for a season, but he plays wide receiver, so he would get it. If Graham lines up away from the line more often than he lines up on it (and again, I don't have the numbers, so that may not be the case. Just speaking philosophically), I'm not sure what the difference is between him, Decker, Welker, or any other slew of players that can't "blow by the coverage" as you state it, yet WOULD be classified as a WR for purposes of the tag.

BradyFTW! · Jul 2, 2014

Wheelman said:
I feel bad for Jimmy Graham. He can't even block. He's taken out of run blocking plays(ie wild card game he's taken off in place of Benjamin Watson), he's a wide receiver in my eyes not a tight end. And all these mediots and analysts who says Jimmy Graham is the best tight end in the NFL are just dumb. Hey you can say Jimmy Graham is better than the best tight end in the NFL(Gronk), people say Megatron is...no biggy! But stop calling him a damn tightend...guy can't block!

Agreed. He's so bad at blocking that, even when covered by a CB (see: Pats game last year when Talib shut him down), they still won't run behind him. He's a really big WR. If your only skill is catching passes, and the vast majority of the time you do it from the slot or split out wide, you're unambiguously a WR in my eyes.

In any case, I don't care all that much about this ruling, since it was never going to affect Gronk anyways. Gronk is clearly a TE, and if anything calling someone like Graham a TE discredits all of the less glamorous TE work that a guy like Gronk actually does. Would have been good news for us if Hernandez had decided to stick to football rather than moonlighting in killing people, though.

Nehalem · Jul 2, 2014

He was drafted as a TE. He has spent the last few years competing with Gronk for being the best TE in the league.

But then all of a sudden when it comes time to get paid he wants to call himself a WR? Seems like if he had wanted to insist on being a WR the time to do it would be before he had the monetary incentive to fudge.

AzorianPats · Jul 2, 2014

varjao said:
Ok, since we have nothing football related to talk about, if you could choose a TE for the next 5 years, despite contracts, looking only production, potential and durability, who would you choose, Gronk or Graham?

Gronk, and the only reason why it's close is because of Gronk 's durability.

Kontradiction · Jul 2, 2014

Wheelman said:
Oh come on! You and I both know Gronk lined up next to a lineman far more often than Graham has.

If anything, if Gronk didn't get hurt he surely would deserve a Megatron contract. He's an elite player.

And for the record I never considered Hernandez a tight end.

Gronk is by far the better blocker. That's why he lines up on the OL more than Graham does. As I said before, the fact that he sucks at blocking doesn't suddenly make him a WR when it comes time to get paid. He's a TE and ruling is that he shall be paid as such. FWIW, I agree with your second sentence. For your third sentence, what did you consider Hernandez, if not a TE?

chasa said:
don't be silly, we already gave gronk a contract, which he accepted. This is a case of a team telling a player he is something DESPITE numbers saying he is something else.

The ruling stated that Slot position was close enough to the linemen, that it doesn't count as being a WR.

If you count the number of times he split out wide, or in the slot, its much much higher, then when he lines up as a traditional TE.

Again because he sucks at blocking. Gronk and Hernandez both lined up in the slot. Gonzalez did as well on occasion. That doesn't mean that those guys are suddenly WR's.

chasa · Jul 2, 2014

I don't understand what it is you are arguing with me about here.

Grahams argument is that he lined up more outside, and in the slot, then next to the linemen. the numbers back that up.

This doesn't have a god damned thing to do with blocking, WR's block on running plays as well, its just down the field, or on screens. Good Blocker bad Blocker it doesn't matter, the argument is he lines up as a WR. The majority of time(which he does) and so he should be classified as a WR.

Its official, Jimmy Graham is franchised as a TE, not WR

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