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D Mac #3 ranked Safety.


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I dont see any more range in Thomas than McCourty. Til now Earls duties were less than McCourtys. 2. Great press Corners, a SS who can cover the TE and LBs who can cover. That all equals less responsibility and more freelancing for earl. Devin has far more grass to mow. 2 LBs a liability in coverage,a press corner always on crutches(talib) and a ss who couldn't match up with big fast WRs. And a couple quality zone corners whom need help with Calvin Johnsons and Josh Gordon's of the NFL. Hopefully Ryan continues to develop into a good press at nearly 6' and 200 Lbs.
Right now Thomas is the best. McCourty should make a leap this year with better talent around him. Not sure he enters Earls league but he has corner speed and range while being a very reliable open field tackler. He can also deliver a pop when needed. I think Earls hitting ability is overrated. He has been run over more often than mccourty. I also like Malcolm Jenkins potential at FS. But McCourty could cost much more midway through this season to resign.
 
Interesting that you show this clip, B6. From what I see is a CB (Browner, I think), get beaten by the WR, and the single high S, allowing a receiver to get deeper than him. . If the QB had led the WR, it would have been a completion, at least.. Granted it would have taken a great pass, but I think its clear that a very good pass would have beaten both DB's

So what was your point in putting this up (thanks BTW), was it to show poor coverage by both. ;)
 
I never said stats should not apply to elite SAFs, you must be confusing me with someone else. I think stats indicate the performance of a SAF more than just about any position on the field. They are a support player, their job is to make plays on the football.

I wasn't referring to you specifically with that part of my post. I was referring to the (correct) pro-McCourty argument that it's hard to judge him on his lack of stats since opposing QB's tend to throw away from him. The same is true for Earl Thomas. The pass defenses, INT's, and statistics he does have are when quarterbacks throw the ball in his general direction. If we're going to use that argument for McCourty, it needs to be used for Thomas too. Further, you said in a post earlier in this thread that "experts and stat geeks both hold McCourty in high regard" to support McCourty. Using this logic, both hold Thomas in higher regard almost across the board.

I see very little separation if any between Thomas and Weddle when he was 25 years old. Weddle has slowed a bit with age.

You're overrating Weddle a bit here. Weddle was always a very good safety. Again, by your own admission, Thomas is great.
 
I wasn't referring to you specifically with that part of my post. I was referring to the (correct) pro-McCourty argument that it's hard to judge him on his lack of stats since opposing QB's tend to throw away from him. The same is true for Earl Thomas. The pass defenses, INT's, and statistics he does have are when quarterbacks throw the ball in his general direction. If we're going to use that argument for McCourty, it needs to be used for Thomas too. Further, you said in a post earlier in this thread that "experts and stat geeks both hold McCourty in high regard" to support McCourty. Using this logic, both hold Thomas in higher regard almost across the board.
I am not suggesting Thomas is not held in high regard, I am just disagreeing with your suggestion that he is more instinctive than McCourty. I see nothing to substantiate this in his play or his statistics. Thomas plays single high safety, McCourty plays left or right safety, it is easier to throw away from McCourty, and it eliminates McCourty from being in plays on one side of the field in most situations. Thomas is aligned dead center or occasionally shaded to the RCB, it is much more difficult to throw away from him, and he not being assigned to a certain side of the field allows him to be involved in more plays.
You're overrating Weddle a bit here. Weddle was always a very good safety. Again, by your own admission, Thomas is great.
I think you are overrating Thomas, and underrating Weddle, he is a 4 time All Pro (2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013), Thomas has been named an All Pro 3 times. Since the start of 2010 Weddle has 396 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, 14 interceptions, 39 pass defenses, and 15 run stuffs. During that same period of time Thomas has 345 tackles, 0 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, 3 fumble recoveries, 15 interceptions, 32 pass defenses, and 9 run stuffs. Weddle does not having anything close to the supporting cast that Thomas has either.

Also I think you are taking my saying he is a great player to “literally” in the context of safeties in the NFL currently he is one of the great ones, as McCourty, Byrd, and Weddle.
 
Interesting that you show this clip, B6. From what I see is a CB (Browner, I think), get beaten by the WR, and the single high S, allowing a receiver to get deeper than him. . If the QB had led the WR, it would have been a completion, at least.. Granted it would have taken a great pass, but I think its clear that a very good pass would have beaten both DB's

So what was your point in putting this up (thanks BTW), was it to show poor coverage by both. ;)
It was to show how the defense aligns and how it plays out. Do not put too much stock in the actual outcome or potential outcome of the play.
 
Some of you need to remove the Koolaid I.V. from your veins. McCourty's not Thomas. He's not better than Thomas. He's not as good as Thomas. He's not right behind Thomas. And the stat stuff is embarrassing.
 
Some of you need to remove the Koolaid I.V. from your veins. McCourty's not Thomas. He's not better than Thomas. He's not as good as Thomas. He's not right behind Thomas. And the stat stuff is embarrassing.
Do you watch many Seahawks games? I am curious to know what exactly you are basing your opinion on.

I do not understand the stats being embarrassing statement, you said in post #181 that the use of numbers made sense in the context of this discussion.

Overall, in my opinion, Earl Thomas is benefiting from the same hype machine that most players on the Seahawks are benefiting from right now. It happens every year with the players of the Super Bowl winning team, the Giants NASCAR line in 2011 is a perfect example of this, players like JPP, Tuck, Umenyiora all overhyped and talked up by the media and fans nationally. Is Thomas an elite safety in the NFL right now, absolutely, but the separation between him and the others like McCourty, Byrd, Weddle, Berry, and others is not as wide as you would like people to believe.

I do agree, Thomas is better than McCourty right now, but he should be, he has been playing the position 2 years longer, and he has played with the same core players for the majority of his career in the secondary out in Seattle. McCourty has played with a revolving door of secondary players.
 
McCourty has many attributes and his range is second to none, but if he wants to be in this discussion, he needs to learn to turn around and play the ball with his back to the QB. I don't see that kind of hole in Thomas' game.
 
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Do you watch many Seahawks games? I am curious to know what exactly you are basing your opinion on.

I've watched plenty of Seahawks games since Pete took over.

I do not understand the stats being embarrassing statement, you said in post #181 that the use of numbers made sense in the context of this discussion.

Context of that particular area of discussion: "big plays" that were supposedly including things likes INTs, etc... Therefore comparing the numbers makes sense, regardless of any deeper value.

Context of the general discussion: meaningless numbers.
 
I am not suggesting Thomas is not held in high regard, I am just disagreeing with your suggestion that he is more instinctive than McCourty. I see nothing to substantiate this in his play or his statistics.

He is by far more instinctive than McCourty. How much of that comes naturally and how much of that is due to him playing the position longer than McCourty is certainly up for discussion, but he is.

Thomas plays single high safety, McCourty plays left or right safety, it is easier to throw away from McCourty, and it eliminates McCourty from being in plays on one side of the field in most situations. Thomas is aligned dead center or occasionally shaded to the RCB, it is much more difficult to throw away from him, and he not being assigned to a certain side of the field allows him to be involved in more plays.

Not necessarily on both counts. As has been pointed out here many times, the Patriots don't always play left and right safety. Further, there's also many articles available for your viewing that break down the Seahawks defense in detail under Carroll that also show Thomas isn't always aligned as a single high safety. Thomas plays centerfield, single high, traditional FS, and can come down into the box...

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As you can see, your contention that he's a single high safety is simply false. They throw a lot of different personnel groupings and alignments around to say that with any confidence. Further, if they're in the Cover-1, that means that Thomas is responsible for covering more of the field than McCourty is. So trying to make the (flawed) argument that playing single high safety is an advantage for Thomas over McCourty simply doesn't work on multiple levels.

I think you are overrating Thomas, and underrating Weddle, he is a 4 time All Pro (2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013), Thomas has been named an All Pro 3 times. Since the start of 2010 Weddle has 396 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, 14 interceptions, 39 pass defenses, and 15 run stuffs. During that same period of time Thomas has 345 tackles, 0 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, 3 fumble recoveries, 15 interceptions, 32 pass defenses, and 9 run stuffs. Weddle does not having anything close to the supporting cast that Thomas has either.

I'm not underrating Weddle at all. I said he's a very good safety. Just not a great one. I'm far from alone in that as well. Further, as has been pointed out to you by more than just myself, tossing out those stats in the context of this discussion is useless. If you're going to use those to praise Weddle, you should be damning McCourty right now instead of pimping him.

Also I think you are taking my saying he is a great player to “literally” in the context of safeties in the NFL currently he is one of the great ones, as McCourty, Byrd, and Weddle.

No, I'm not. You admitted he was a great safety yourself and now you're trying to backtrack. Either way, the overwhelming consensus is that it's Thomas as the clear cut best safety in the NFL right now (consensus being media, peers, and fans with peers being the most important one) and everyone else coming in behind him. The only people trying to even remotely make the argument that McCourty is better are Patriots fans, and it's not even the entire fanbase trying to do that. It's only a mistaken contingent.
 
I think Thomas is the best safety in the game, but I never found him to be a big hitter. I think D Mac a better tackler than him.
For a second there I thought that was my post and was confused why I didn't remember typing it. Then I realized we have just have the same avatars.
 
For a second there I thought that was my post and was confused why I didn't remember typing it. Then I realized we have just have the same avatars.

Sounds like something I'd do. :) We do have a couple posters using Archer avatars.

Easy enough to take your Avatar and mirror image it and re-upload it.
 
For a second there I thought that was my post and was confused why I didn't remember typing it. Then I realized we have just have the same avatars.

Apologies brother!

I just changed to that avatar a couple of days ago. I'll change it to something else soon!
 
I've watched plenty of Seahawks games since Pete took over.
I was not questioning your knowledge, I was asking you if you have watched a lot of games, for the record. I have not, so I was curious.
 
There have been four recent Top 100 rankings of NFL players
In ProFootball Focus McCourty was ranked 22nd (2nd overall safety)
Pete Prisco ranked McCourty 62nd overall (4th overall safety).
McCourty was not ranked by Pat Kirwan who had 5 other safeties in his Top 100
McCourty was not ranked in the Top 100 by his fellow players as tabulated by NFLNetwork. & other safeties made NFLNetwork's Top 100.
topsafeties.PNG
 
There have been four recent Top 100 rankings of NFL players
In ProFootball Focus McCourty was ranked 22nd (2nd overall safety)
Pete Prisco ranked McCourty 62nd overall (4th overall safety).
McCourty was not ranked by Pat Kirwan who had 5 other safeties in his Top 100
McCourty was not ranked in the Top 100 by his fellow players as tabulated by NFLNetwork. & other safeties made NFLNetwork's Top 100.
topsafeties.PNG
Interesting analysis that looks favorably upon Thomas. One nit: in computing the average, it would be more accurate if, instead of discounting the ranking for a player who fails to make the top 100, you assigned a ranking of >100.
 
Some of you need to remove the Koolaid I.V. from your veins. McCourty's not Thomas. He's not better than Thomas. He's not as good as Thomas. He's not right behind Thomas. And the stat stuff is embarrassing.
Here is DI at his typical pontificating best. Like a pronouncement from on high. There is no need to provide data, stats or pictures to back up one's position like Kontra and B6 have done. No, need for the "football God" whose ego is a big as Jerry Jones'. If he states it, it is fact...and anyone who doesn't agree with him is either a overt homer or latent idiot...or both.

Like I said earlier, trying to directly compare individual players, from different systems and talent pools is a fools errand. Unless you are a coach with complete knowledge of the players, systems, alignments, motion adjustments pre-snap adjustments, post-snap reactions and individual responsibilities for each play; you are really just making an anecdotal subjective opinion.

Its one thing to make opposing positions like Kontra and B6 and others have done and use whatever subjective data you can find to support your position. Its another to make pronouncements without offering anything but your own feelings, yet present it as if it were the only true reality.

When it comes right down to it, I wouldn't have any issue with DI's OPINION if he simply started his comment with the phrase, "I think...."

Other thoughts on this last page:

1. I don't think any team these days just plays 2 deep safeties any more. Just as I'm sure no one is just playing a single high safety exclusively either. So it should be no surprise to find evidence that Thomas played in 2 deep coverages, just like McCourty. (as well as visa versa). The question then becomes how often teams were in different coverages. And I'm not sure that even a rabid fan with the all 22 package can fully determine the actual coverage, since teams will be working hard to show one thing pre-snap to QB's and rotate into something else based on formation, down and distance, or design.

2. We all think o Seattle as being a basic press man secondary. So it was surprising to learn that they were predominantly in a match up zone for most of the superbowl. For all the talk of the transitioning of NFL teams to more man coverages, it would still seem the best way to combat these elite passing offenses is with physical zone coverages. It's what Rex Ryan used to stop the Pats in the 2010 playoffs, and what BB used to stop "the greatest show on turf". Don't dismiss the zone concepts yet.

3. I think that the reality is now, that offenses have become so sophisticated and complex, that under the current rules, defenses simply can no longer physically stop them if they are executed well. The ONLY hope defenses really have now is to screw up that execution by disguising their intentions and creating doubt in the QB's and receivers.

4. In this reality position flexibility becomes a huge weapon in the hands of a creative DC.

5. So in the end it really doesn't matter much if McCourty is the best safety, the 3rd best safety, or the 15th best safety. Watching the 2014 version of the Pats secondary is going to be very very interesting. At least to this very amateur observer at least. Interesting enough that I will be investing in the "all 22" this season, just so I'll have a little better idea of what they are trying to do.
 
Here is DI at his typical pontificating best. Like a pronouncement from on high.

So much irony, it can't fit into a football stadium. I particularly love it when I get to this:

Like I said earlier, trying to directly compare individual players, from different systems and talent pools is a fools errand.

I mean, that's just hypocrisy gold. Hell, it's platinum.

When it comes right down to it, I wouldn't have any issue with DI's OPINION if he simply started his comment with the phrase, "I think...."

Ok, I'm being punked right? I mean, there's no way PFK can be unaware of the ironies in his post and then toss this in as the cherry on top. It's hypocrisy porn, for crying out loud.
 
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So much irony, it can't fit into a football stadium. I particularly love it when I get to this:



I mean, that's just hypocrisy gold. Hell, it's platinum.



Ok, I'm being punked right? I mean, there's no way PFK can be unaware of the ironies in his post and then toss this in as the cherry on top. It's hypocrisy porn, for crying out loud.

Suuch energy spent in deflecting every bit and byte of criticism...

Sooo much time spent trying to destroy your critics.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a little less of the patronizing rhetoric in your posts?
 
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