Another look at the coverage in the secondary

Last year, after Talib went down, here was the Pats' secondary in nickel coverage:

CB1 - Dennard
CB2 - Ryan
CB3 - Arrington
S - McCourty
S - Gregory

This year, assuming everyone is healthy (that caveat always needs to be included), here's the best coverage group the Pats could put out there (IMO):

CB1 - Revis
CB2 - Browner
CB3 - Dennard
S - Ryan
S - McCourty

(in addition, you could have Collins and Anderson as excellent coverage LBs)

Now, I don't know if Ryan or Browner could move into a safety role in a nickel. But I think they could experiment with this group. Because what you have is the best corner in the NFL (Revis - holy crap I still can't believe the Patriots have him!) matching up against the other team's #1. McCourty patrols centerfield. Then among Ryan, Dennard, and Browner, you probably have Browner match up against either the biggest WR on the field if it isn't the other team's #1, or the TE. And then Dennard and Ryan get the slot receiver and last WR, or a RB coming out of the backfield.

All are good tacklers in addition to being good cover guys. So if a pass does get completed, the Pats should be able to limit the YAC.

In my memory, this may be the best group of cover guys the Pats have ever had. I think the '85 team was really good then as well (Clayborn, Lippett, Marion, and James), and maybe the '03 group too (Law, Poole, Samuel, Wilson, Harrison). But this group now has the potential to be the best.

Now, not only will this help the pass defense, it will greatly improve the pass rush. The Pats' pass defense last year had a hard time covering for even a couple of seconds, and God help them if the pass rush didn't get to the QB quickly. This group should be able to give the DL an extra second or two to get to the QB.

So my prediction: with the addition of these DBs, plus the addition of Easley and Kelly (not technically an addition, but for all practical purposes he is), I think we will see the Pats' pass rush improve considerably. We will also see the opposing QB rating go down considerably.

Teams are going to have a hard time throwing against the New England Patriots in 2014.

So, are you going to go crazy when Arrington gets most of the nickle corner snaps?

And I liked Lippett but there were a number of years with Clayborn and Haynes with excellent safeties, though I can't remember specifically (posted in a thread a while back).

RayClay said:

So, are you going to go crazy when Arrington gets most of the nickle corner snaps?

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Probably! I actually forgot he's still here.

I think the way we play defense will be very different then we did last year. Revis can basically take a man or side and we can leave him alone. That means we can move safeties around, play 7/8 in the box more often. I'm excited to see how BB uses Devin, Browner, Dennard. With our secondary will we play as aggressive as the Rex does. It will be fun to watch

RayClay said:

So, are you going to go crazy when Arrington gets most of the nickle corner snaps?

And I liked Lippett but there were a number of years with Clayborn and Haynes with excellent safeties, though I can't remember specifically (posted in a thread a while back).

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If Arrington beats Dennard out for snaps as the nickel corner, that will be an indictment on Dennard. There is no plausible way Arrington should beat Dennard out of that job short of an injury.

The "star" is like a starter now since they are in sub so much.

RayClay said:

So, are you going to go crazy when Arrington gets most of the nickle corner snaps?

And I liked Lippett but there were a number of years with Clayborn and Haynes with excellent safeties, though I can't remember specifically (posted in a thread a while back).

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Arrington is not going to get the most snaps in the slot. I know in 2012 after he absolutely sucked playing outside he was moved inside to the slot and played well and fans annotated him the GREATEST SLOT CB in the NFL but that is not actually true. He is a better CB in the slot than he is when he is outside, but he sucks as bad as any CB in the NFL when he is outside so that is not exactly saying much.

Dennard is significantly better than Arrington, they are not even in the same category, in my opinion Dennard is one of the most undervalued players on the team amongst the fans and posters on this board. He allowed a 50.75% completion percentage, and 79.8 QB rating against last season despite playing through knee surgery, he was equally impressive in his rookie season. Dennard is a top 50 cornerback in the NFL, I would even say top 40 but I will be conservative and say 50, he is not going to be on the bench while Kyle Arrington is on the field, not next season, not ever.

This is what I expect to see once Browner returns –

#1 WR-Revis
#1 TE-Browner
#2 WR-Dennard
Deep SAF-Ryan
Up SAF-McCourty
Dime CB-Arrington
Money SAF-Harmon

If Chung makes the team he could see some reps on early downs in the box.

Brady6 said:

but he sucks as bad as any CB in the NFL when he is outside

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You need to watch more football, because there's no way this is remotely true. I get that some people really dislike Arrington as a player, but this "grass is always greener" attitude has gotten out of control over the last few weeks. There are a number of players that people here would be extremely disappointed to see getting a significant amount of snaps. There's no reason to think that any of these "bubble contributor" players are "as bad as any in the NFL" or "worst in the NFL" or similar phrases that have been throw around.

You're also vastly underselling Arrington's production in the slot, but that's not even worth getting into if you actually believe "he sucks as bad as any CB in the NFL when he is outside."

Don't forget about Harmon in that mix. He's no slouch either in my opinion

Remember when BB used to pick up ex NFL guys off the street and try to plug them in?? Or having offensive players play DB?? I think he has changed in how he values the position and how important it has become... I like the depth, but never can have enough quality depth.

It also has been said when Revis is on the field everyone on the team becomes better... that may be a "Revism" but he probably will.

KontradictioN said:

There is no plausible way Arrington should beat Dennard out of that job short of an injury.

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Brady6 said:

Dennard is a top 50 cornerback in the NFL, I would even say top 40 but I will be conservative and say 50, he is not going to be on the bench while Kyle Arrington is on the field, not next season, not ever.

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You two are overstating it. To infer from Dennard's superior play out the outside that he will be hands-down better in the slot is a leap. I think he is ready to overshadow Arrington, but he's going to have a tough competition for it. Playing in the crowded spaces in the middle of the field is a different animal from working in isolation on the outside. Arrington has bottled-up Wes Welker and Victor Cruz quite well and is quite adept in the run game, but he lacks Dennard's ball skills and can get beat in open space.

Aspects of the skillsets that are best suited to outside CB or the slot are different. Outside cornerbacks require greater speed and ball skills, whereas slot CBs require more short-area quickness and exceptionally fluid hips. That's not to say that you can't use ball skills on the inside, but if a player can't handle an inside-outside cut effectively, ball skills aren't going to save you. This is far from a done deal and it's unfair to both players to say that Dennard will be a disappointment if he can't beat out Arrington for a role as slot CB. The truth is that there is going to be quite a battle for playing time in the secondary, especially once Browner comes back from suspension.

Kansas City Chiefs release cornerback Brandon Flowers - ESPN

Can never have too many DBs, and the Pats might be light at the Brandon position...

BB has thrown a lot at the wall building the 2014 secondary, but man what we have now is amazing.

I thought Talib was a top 10 cb when he was with the Patriots. He played as a top 3 cb when healthy with us last year. Biggest advantage with Revis is other than the acl year he has been healthy and I have faith that Ravis is more likely to be healthy for the year than Talib giving us a top 4 corner for the year and the PLAYOFFS.

I have really liked what Dennard brings to the cornerback position-physical presence, intensely competitive in coverage, strong tackler. Ryan had the most electric rookie season since Asante Samuel (edit-spaced on McCourty's rookie year). Spending the full year in the same room with McCourty, Revis and Browner is the best possible peer tutelage for our promising young cornerbacks.

The excellent coverage ability of this group should open the playbook for a safety or corner blitz. Another way to apply pressure on a few critical plays a year.

Sciz said:

You need to watch more football, because there's no way this is remotely true. I get that some people really dislike Arrington as a player, but this "grass is always greener" attitude has gotten out of control over the last few weeks. There are a number of players that people here would be extremely disappointed to see getting a significant amount of snaps. There's no reason to think that any of these "bubble contributor" players are "as bad as any in the NFL" or "worst in the NFL" or similar phrases that have been throw around.

You're also vastly underselling Arrington's production in the slot, but that's not even worth getting into if you actually believe "he sucks as bad as any CB in the NFL when he is outside."

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It was a struggle to get past the “you need to watch more football” statement.

Any way I was able to read past your ignorance and I do not agree. Arrington was allowing a near perfect QB rating in outside coverage along with a 76% completion rate. He was routinely beat by slot receivers throughout 2013 even before the groin injury. Overall, he allowed the highest QB rating of any player on the Patriots last season when targeted.

pencilneckgeek said:

You two are overstating it. To infer from Dennard's superior play out the outside that he will be hands-down better in the slot is a leap. I think he is ready to overshadow Arrington, but he's going to have a tough competition for it. Playing in the crowded spaces in the middle of the field is a different animal from working in isolation on the outside. Arrington has bottled-up Wes Welker and Victor Cruz quite well and is quite adept in the run game, but he lacks Dennard's ball skills and can get beat in open space.

Aspects of the skillsets that are best suited to outside CB or the slot are different. Outside cornerbacks require greater speed and ball skills, whereas slot CBs require more short-area quickness and exceptionally fluid hips. That's not to say that you can't use ball skills on the inside, but if a player can't handle an inside-outside cut effectively, ball skills aren't going to save you. This is far from a done deal and it's unfair to both players to say that Dennard will be a disappointment if he can't beat out Arrington for a role as slot CB. The truth is that there is going to be quite a battle for playing time in the secondary, especially once Browner comes back from suspension.

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Did you watch the last two seasons of the Patriots and see the games when Arrington was pulled for Cole or Ryan? Did you see the Steelers game when Crotchery went for 3 touchdowns, if Arrington was so good in the slot he would not have allowed a QB rating of nearly 90.

Sciz said:

You need to watch more football, because there's no way this is remotely true. I get that some people really dislike Arrington as a player, but this "grass is always greener" attitude has gotten out of control over the last few weeks. There are a number of players that people here would be extremely disappointed to see getting a significant amount of snaps. There's no reason to think that any of these "bubble contributor" players are "as bad as any in the NFL" or "worst in the NFL" or similar phrases that have been throw around.

You're also vastly underselling Arrington's production in the slot, but that's not even worth getting into if you actually believe "he sucks as bad as any CB in the NFL when he is outside."

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For me it's not a matter of liking or disliking Arrington. He has his weakness and strengths, he is prone to getting burned or turned especially on double moves, is bad at tracking the ball and his man at the same time (when he tracks one he loses sight of the other), but he is durable in run support, excels underneath. He is a specialist though- a slot nickelback.

The big question for me here is, is there anything that Arrington does, that Dennard cannot do?

Don't forget that Dennard is actually bigger than Arrington.

Before we caught up into another "he sucks, he's great" pissing contest. I'd like to get this thread back on track. To do that I'd refer you all to the thread on the "the Patriots and the cover 3 Defense". In that thread they break down a defense that the Seahawks used a lot last year. It's a very interesting thread, but what does it have to do with this one.

Well IMHO its just goes to show how complex this one single alignment can be, and all the variants and possible outcomes that can happen AFTER the D is called in the huddle. With the talent and secondary depth we are going to have this season, there are literally no known alignments that the Pats WON'T be able to run. The number will be limited only by the learning capacity of the DB's in the locker room.

Trying to figure out who will be playing where is a fools errand. Suffice it to say, they likely be playing EVERYWHERE. Once we see a little bit of competition at training camp MAYBE we might get an idea of who will be playing where. But even then, until we actually see full game planning in the regular season, we will only get a peak at what we might see this season.

Finally I would like to point out that BB is a big proponent of disguising his defenses. For that reason, we might not flop our S's and CB's less than some people think. I would also warn those who think that we will be in man coverage almost exclusively that that may be disappointed. There are several kinds of underneath zone coverages that look like press man.....but aren't.

For example. Offense often use motion to force defenses to show man or zone coverage pre-snap. There are defenses that you can trail the motion man; yet still be in a zone, and defenses where you don't follow him and still be in man. Big plays come most often when a QB is thinking he is throwing to man coverage and gets a zone, and vice versa.

I'm getting the All-22 this year, and I look forward to long hours of TRYING to break down SOME of the Pats uses of disguise this season. Believe me, you will very rarely be able to pick it up on the live feed.

patfanken said:

Trying to figure out who will be playing where is a fools errand. Suffice it to say, they likely be playing EVERYWHERE. Once we see a little bit of competition at training camp MAYBE we might get an idea of who will be playing where. But even then, until we actually see full game planning in the regular season, we will only get a peak at what we might see this season.

Finally I would like to point out that BB is a big proponent of disguising his defenses. For that reason, we might not flop our S's and CB's less than some people think. I would also warn those who think that we will be in man coverage almost exclusively that that may be disappointed. There are several kinds of underneath zone coverages that look like press man.....but aren't.

For example. Offense often use motion to force defenses to show man or zone coverage pre-snap. There are defenses that you can trail the motion man; yet still be in a zone, and defenses where you don't follow him and still be in man. Big plays come most often when a QB is thinking he is throwing to man coverage and gets a zone, and vica versa.

I'm getting the all 22 this year, and I look forward to long hours of TRYING to break down SOME of the Pats uses of disguise this season. Believe me, you will very rarely be able to pick it up on the live feed.

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I agree that we will be playing multiple coverage schemes, though I think man coverage will be the dominant theme. I also agree that there will be a lot of pre- and post-snap coverage adjustments and disguise, though it will work both ways (for example, the Pats may start out in what looks like a cover 2 shell, and then drop a robber down and play press-man coverage with cover 1 or 3). It will be very interesting to try and figure out all the variants and permutations.

This may be the year, for the first time since 2007, the Patriots are finally able to defend against a trips formation.