Devin McCourty contract talks in progress

PATS68 said:

McCourty should be at a point that he should be picking off some of those deep in cuts and all he does is make the tackle after the catch. He sucked at corner and gave up the most yards in the history of the NFL. Average at best as a safety. Like it has been stated in the thread where is the big play? Where is the big hit?

What gets overlooked in the Pats last SB win when they beat the Eagles was Rodney Harrison's three game playoff series. He made key INTs in all three games which helped the Pats to win the SB. McCourty to be paid as a top safety needs to do that for his team.

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I'm well known around here as one who's not worried about criticizing Patriots players (many of the homers would phrase that far less politely), so I'm not coming at this from the shill point of view. That being said, let's get real here. The safety position is currently weak across the league. The idea that McCourty is just average is nonsensical. If you want to argue that he's not a top 3/5/7/10 safety, that's one thing. Claiming he's average at best? Please, feel free to slot last year's starting safeties and show us where McCourty falls in the middle/slightly below the middle (32 teams, 2 safeties = 64 safeties, meaning you're rating McCourty someone in the 30-40 range). Make it easy on yourself. Just go division by division. Start with the NFCE, NCFN, and NFCS, and I think you'll start to realize that your position doesn't hold water.

Can someone please explain to me why the Patriots are engaging in extension talks with McCourty if they consider him an average safety? Only if they think of him as a top echelon safety does the time engaging in extension talks now become worth the effort? That is, why would McCourty accept an contract fitting of an average safety now?

I think what is funny about this forum is that it brings out big Patriots fans who are really just casual football fans on the whole. They love the pats but sit around and watch the games with the same types....Guys who live for the games but dont have a huge understanding about players responsibilities and statistics. They dont see a big impact play from someone so that must mean they are not excellent at what they do.

That is how a 10 year old would think I imagine.

FCB02062 said:

I don't get the McCourty cir#lejerk. Guy's a good player, but when was the last time he made a big play in a big game? He forced fumbles in weeks 4 & 5 and had a pick in week 9. In the playoffs he made little to no impact. For all the talk about how smart and good he is, McCourty, in his four year career, has exactly TWO interceptions and ZERO forced fumbles in games after Thanksgiving, including playoffs (i'm not counting two picks his rookie year in late season games vs MIA and NYJ, which the Pats won by a combined 83-10. Where was the big play in the playoffs vs Denver last season or vs Baltimore the year before? Same with Mayo, good player, but when was the last time he made a game changing play in a big game?

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That last sentence says a lot right there about how you differ from Belichick in evaluation of defensive players. For all of the problems you have with Mayo, Belichick gave him a big 5 year extension. There's clearly some disparity there in how you value Mayo versus how Belichick does.

And then in the second part if the sentence, you address that disparity. You seem to define "game changing" as in making a positive play. Belichick meanwhile, appears to be more interested in having defenders that avoid negative game changing plays, which would be one of the principles of the "bend but don't break" defense that everybody loves so much. Now Mayo hasn't been perfect in that regard (missed tackle on Shonn Greene on the game-icing TD in the 2010 playoff game, missing the ball on the Eli to Cruz slant TD in the Super Bowl), but he's generally regarded as a guy who doesn't make many mistakes.

Also, screw Asante Samuel. He's a perfect example of a guy who made multiple negative game-changing plays in a big game. Sure, he missed the basically game-ending pick, but the inexcusable mistake was to stop covering Tyree on the play that shall not be named. If he catches the interception or breaks up that pass, the Pats likely win. Samuel decided to cover an empty patch of grass instead.

Another example is Dashon Goldson. He's know as a guy who delivers lots of big hits and has had some big interception totals, but he also makes some bone-headed coverage errors. In particular, in the 2011 NFCCG, he twice laid out a teammate who otherwise could have had a pick, and once knocked that teammate out if the game. They lost by 3 in overtime, letting the Giants move on to the Super Bowl, and the rest is history.

Now I'll gladly admit that I've been brainwashed to only evaluate players in the context of Belichick's defensive ideologies, but I think that a few people here would he better off at least considering what Belichick values in a free safety as opposed to what they do.

It would be smart to extend DMac now because the cap will keep rising and the market for DB's is extremely hot right now and since there's no explosive offenses in NFL right now (Broncos lost some players and even if it was not the case, they got humiliated in the SB) I believe defenses will keeping shutting offenses down, so I understand the market will keep hot for DB's at least one more season. But things can change fast, last season their market was poor.

On the other hand, if you let him test the market and he's a true Patriot and I believe he is, he would give preference to the Patriots, as long as they do not low ball him of course.

Right now his name is hot and it's not going to be cheap, next free agency who knows? There's a big chance he will have the leverage because having Revis around will make him look better and his stats will go sky high, this, in theory of course.

I'm not on the McCourthy hate train neither think he's a top safety, I do agree he's late in many plays and I question his reads and butter fingers, but I think he still has a lot of room to improve and Deus is right when he says there's nothing much better out there.

So if they can reach an agreement around 7Mi tops plus some incentives giving the team flexibility, I say sign the deal right now. If his goal is 8+ , then I would wait until he plays out this current contract and test the market.

Nunchucks said:

But, the cap will continue to go up, probably by quite a bit and Brady's salary will come down. Nevermind Hernandez money coming off the books. I am not so sure that the Patriots cannot have both.

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They can have both it just means they have to go cheap on other units, right now that will mean less at WR, RB. And TE when scumbag's money comes off the books.

What I've learned in this thread is that not allowing 40+ yard pass plays doesn't qualify as a big play, without having INTs in his stat sheet he isn't worth paying. We must have SEVERELY overpaid for Revis then, the dude hardly has any career INTs, he's not a playmaker!!!!

strngplyr said:

What I've learned in this thread is that not allowing 40+ yard pass plays doesn't qualify as a big play, without having INTs in his stat sheet he isn't worth paying. We must have SEVERELY overpaid for Revis then, the dude hardly has any career INTs, he's not a playmaker!!!!

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How can he be a playmaker when they won't even throw at him in practice?

50-yard-line said:

How can he be a playmaker when they won't even throw at him in practice?

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Apparently being so good that people are instructed to avoid you means less than having people target you. McCourty is somehow supposed to have 14 interceptions for the ~14 or so passes thrown into his coverage for all of 2013.

This is an easy decision. He 's 26 years old, 2x All-Pro at 2 different positions, solid teammate who the Pats will need for several more years. The Pats will find a way to keep him at a reasonable price.

PATS68 said:

McCourty should be at a point that he should be picking off some of those deep in cuts and all he does is make the tackle after the catch. He sucked at corner and gave up the most yards in the history of the NFL. Average at best as a safety. Like it has been stated in the thread where is the big play? Where is the big hit?

What gets overlooked in the Pats last SB win when they beat the Eagles was Rodney Harrison's three game playoff series. He made key INTs in all three games which helped the Pats to win the SB. McCourty to be paid as a top safety needs to do that for his team.

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Top safeties don't necessarily need to get lots of INTs and force turnovers, and they definitely don't have to do it in the play-offs to win Super Bowls.

In 2013, Eric Berry was an All Pro despite 3 INTs.

In 2012, Earl Thomas was an All Pro despite 3 INTs.

In 2011, Polamalu was an All Pro despite 2 INTs.

Some of those are popularity contests, sure, but you can be a top safety without a ton of turnovers.

Earl Thomas, perhaps the best safety in the game right now, is a great example of impacting the game without lots of turnovers. In his second season, he had 1 FF and 2 INTs but made the Pro Bowl and All Pro. In his third season, he had 1 FF and 3 INTs and again made the Pro Bowl and All Pro. In 2013, he had 5 INTs in the regular season, but he had 0 INTs/FFs in the play-offs for the Super Bowl champion Seattle Seahawks.

The 2012 version of Ed Reed was a shadow of his former self, but he was still a ballhawking safety for Baltimore. But he only had 4 INTs in the regular season, and only 1 in 4 play-off games. It was in the Super Bowl so it mattered more, but it's not like he made a ton of big plays during the play-off run.

The 2011 Giants (as much as I wish I didn't remember) won with Antrel Rolle patrolling the deep space. He had 2 INTs in the regular season, 0 in the play-offs.

The 2010 Packers won with Charles Woodson, a player with a history of forcing turnovers. But he only had 2 INTs in the regular season, though he added 5 FFs. In the play-offs, he had 0 turnovers but they won the Super Bowl.

Finally, in 2009, a ballhawking safety playing for a Super Bowl champion had a lot of turnovers...in the regular season. Darren Sharper had 9 INTs in the regular season, 0 in the play-offs.

I'm not against INTs or anything, just saying that they are an overrated method of evaluating players. Tavon Wilson had more INTs than Earl Thomas in 2012. So what? Andy Dalton had more TDs than Tom Brady. Numbers can be twisted to say lots of different things if you want. But they don't say you need a lot of turnovers from your top safety in the play-offs to win a Super Bowl.

The only reason McCourty looks good in practice is because he's covering Amendon'tla...the Pats should ask him to give BACK the money he got on his original contract.

I'm surprised at some of the post here.

The guy is a top 2-3 FS and one of the better players in the league (IMO top 50 player in the league ).

He's a very smart player.

Versatile

QB's don't throw his way ( off the top of my head only 15-16 targets last year I believe? )

He has very good, if not great range. The guy can cover a lot of ground.

He's a better tackler and takes better angles than Earl Thomas. More versatile than Byrd. And He's entering his prime now.

I get the feeling that there are a lot of fans that only watch the Pats and don't really care for understanding player responsibilities and other information available to them.

FCB02062 said:

I don't get the McCourty cir#lejerk. Guy's a good player, but when was the last time he made a big play in a big game? He forced fumbles in weeks 4 & 5 and had a pick in week 9. In the playoffs he made little to no impact. For all the talk about how smart and good he is, McCourty, in his four year career, has exactly TWO interceptions and ZERO forced fumbles in games after Thanksgiving, including playoffs (i'm not counting two picks his rookie year in late season games vs MIA and NYJ, which the Pats won by a combined 83-10. Where was the big play in the playoffs vs Denver last season or vs Baltimore the year before? Same with Mayo, good player, but when was the last time he made a game changing play in a big game?

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I'm sorry, but this post is so full of dumb. You're talking about a safety as if INTs and FF are THE measurement of talent when big-play safties are extremely rare and not the norm. Seriously, do you even watch the NFL? Go look at the stats for the other 2-3 safeties you have heard of from Sports Center and get back to us with your findings.

And keep that god awful reddit drone speak garbage on reddit and off of patsfans. Nobody here wants to read about 'cir#lejerk's. Keep those fantasies to yourself.

Damn...no wonder people are so worried about our 3rd (36% of last year's reps) and 4th (2% of last year's reps) safeties. We can't even agree on the fact that we have a great option at S1 !!!

As some have pointed out, McCourty's versatility to play both S/CB--sometimes in the same series, is incredible enough, but he's also a great tackler, has great range in coverage, and is continuing to grow into a big leadership role as well.

I think Deus wrapped it up nicely. If you want to disagree that DMcC isn't a top 4-6-8 safety, that's one thing, but to claim that he's "average" is pretty silly in my opinion. He's definitely worth retaining, and that's an understatement.

Sticky Caulk said:

I'm sorry, but this post is so full of dumb. You're talking about a safety as if INTs and FF are THE measurement of talent when big-play safties are extremely rare and not the norm.

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And big-play safeties aren't living-up to the name of their position. Polamalu gets praise for his big plays, but Brady eats him alive with misdirection and pump fakes, which leaves the Pitt CBs exposed. Belichick would love to have Ed Reed in his prime, but I doubt he would consider taking Polamalu over McCourty for a second.

Sticky Caulk said:

I'm sorry, but this post is so full of dumb. You're talking about a safety as if INTs and FF are THE measurement of talent when big-play safties are extremely rare and not the norm. Seriously, do you even watch the NFL? Go look at the stats for the other 2-3 safeties you have heard of from Sports Center and get back to us with your findings.

And keep that god awful reddit drone speak garbage on reddit and off of patsfans. Nobody here wants to read about 'cir#lejerk's. Keep those fantasies to yourself.

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When the Patriots were WINNING super bowls they had impact players at safety - Lawyer Milloy 2001 made the game clinching interception with the Pats up by 7 in AFC CG and in 03-04 the Pats had Rodney Harrison...need we say anything about the huge plays Harrison made???? Let me guess, you started watching the Pats in 2001? Or when you drafted Brady and Moss for your fantasy team? Because if you're saying the Pats don't need a guy like Milloy or Harrison in their primes....and McCourty isn't there at the moment...I don't think you've been watching the same football team I've been watching for the past 35 years...

FCB02062 said:

When the Patriots were WINNING super bowls they had impact players at safety - Lawyer Milloy 2001 made the game clinching interception with the Pats up by 7 in AFC CG and in 03-04 the Pats had Rodney Harrison...need we say anything about the huge plays Harrison made???? Let me guess, you started watching the Pats in 2001? Or when you drafted Brady and Moss for your fantasy team? Because if you're saying the Pats don't need a guy like Milloy or Harrison in their primes....and McCourty isn't there at the moment...I don't think you've been watching the same football team I've been watching for the past 35 years...

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1. Are you saying the Pats won those championships because of their safeties?
2. What does Milloys and Harrions performances have to do with DMC's performance VS his peers.
3. You realize both Milloy and Harrison were All-pros.
4. Last years patriots team made the AFCCG with how much of the roster on IR? What was it 4 All Pros and another Talib gimpy. And a starting DT? 6 starters.

Plus the Pats had rookies at WR and a useless slot receiver who was injured. All they had was a guy who until last year nobody wanted at vet minimum.

So you could just as easily spin this around and say perhaps the Pats got this far last year (despite all the injuries) because of the performance of players like DMC.

No?

Bruins29 said:

1. Are you saying the Pats won those championships because of their safeties?
2. What does Milloys and Harrions performances have to do with DMC's performance VS his peers.
3. You realize both Milloy and Harrison were All-pros.
4. Last years patriots team made the AFCCG with how much of the roster on IR? What was it 4 All Pros and another Talib gimpy. And a starting DT? 6 starters.

Plus the Pats had rookies at WR and a useless slot receiver who was injured. All they had was a guy who until last year nobody wanted at vet minimum.

So you could just as easily spin this around and say perhaps the Pats got this far last year (despite all the injuries) because of the performance of players like DMC.

No?

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I'm saying that Milloy and Harrisson were impact, game changing players that made huge contributions to super bowls and made game altering plays for the Patriots. My other point is that Devin McCourty is a good, not great player, who has yet to make a big play in a big game. When Devin McCourty makes a meaningful play in a playoff game - like all the defensive greats of the early Belichick years did - then he will be a top safety in the league.

The last player on this team to make a big, game altering play was Brandon Spikes when he picked off Flacco in the AFC CG in 2011. 7:00 left Pats up 3 Baltimore in Pats territory driving to tie or take the lead. Spikes picks off Flacco and shuts the door on the threat. Granted, Brady threw a pick the very next play, but Brandon Spikes stepped up and made a huge, play in a huge game.
First, Spikes doesn't get that ball it's likely caught for a huge gain and they're in FG territory.

Quick, other than that play by Spikes - what Patriot has made a play in a close, big game? Bueller? Bueller? None, and that's why the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl in 10 years despite having the best qb, coach, and a host of good and great players. As one player once said, "Special players make special plays in special games." The Patriots have lacked that. That is not debatable.

In close games where teams are evenly matched, the best players need to step up. That's been sorely lacking from the Pats...

FCB02062 said:

Quick, other than that play by Spikes - what Patriot has made a play in a close, big game? Bueller? Bueller? None, and that's why the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl in 10 years despite having the best qb, coach, and a host of good and great players. As one player once said, "Special players make special plays in special games." The Patriots have lacked that. That is not debatable.

In close games where teams are evenly matched, the best players need to step up. That's been sorely lacking from the Pats...

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So how come Harrison couldn't dislodge the ball from a JAG?