Camp Battle at WR - Kenbrell Thompkins vs Josh Boyce

Thomkins is pretty damn good against press coverage, in fact thats his primary strength. His route running is spotty (he makes judgement errors), he doesn't have great length or hands but he does have some speed and he's pretty shifty.

But what he does do, better than anyone on our roster save perhaps Edelman, is have an absolutely elite release. He torched Revis on multiple occassions during that Tampa game last year, who is easily the best in the NFL at press coverage. That's when I started to really be impressed by this kid. It's also really hard to find in the NFL and why it would be ashame if we had to release him.

Having said that I agree with the poster above.. We have an embarrassment of below avg 2's and great 3's who all have upside but may or may not make it in the end and we need a breakout season from one of these kids.

I for one don't think that either Amendola or Lafell are locks at this point. I'd say Edelman, Slater and Dobson are locks and after that its wide open and a competition.

Here's the thing with Boyce. He can't utilize his greatest strength, which is his speed and quickness.The only time he can really showcase it is when he's running in a straight line. He's not able to use it in short/intermediate routes. He's not great at getting in/out of his breaks. I suspect that this has to do with his route running or lack thereof. But guys have had some decent success in this league without being the best route runners. I really like what he has to offer in terms of potential but this team needs production now.

I really think Gallon is a threat to Boyce. I'm hoping Gallon gets a real shot because from what I've seem from him in college he looks NFL ready from a skill set standpoint. He's almost a running back with the ball in his hands. You can line him up wherever you'd like. He has the ability to work underneath but also do a little damage outside the numbers. He has shown the ability to make the back shoulder catch on a consistent basis. A throw that Brady has trade to connect with Johnson, Lloyd and KT last year. Obviously not the biggest or fastest kid but he's a good route runner with very good hands. He plays bigger than he is and always seems to be open. I really like this kid and want to see him get some reps.

I really do like our group ( I'm far from a homer ), but there are serious concerns. I'm sure many other Pats fans are sick of talking about, "if so and so stays healthy", but health is a major issue with this group. I think Dobson could be a huge story that people are not paying attention to. It's almost a given that Amendola will be hurt at some point. Those are two guys that we really need to play a full 16. Especially since it looks like the more time passes the more we're moving away from the two tight end set.

SmellsLikeGrundle said:

Here's the thing with Boyce. He can't utilize his greatest strength, which is his speed and quickness. The only time he can really showcase it is when he's running in a straight line. He's not great at getting in/out of his breaks. I suspect that this has to do with his route running or lack thereof. But guys have had some decent success in this league without being the best route runners. I really like what he has to offer in terms of potential but this team needs production now.

I really think Gallon is a threat to Boyce. I'm hoping Gallon gets a real shot because from what I've seem from him in college he looks NFL ready from a skill set standpoint. He's almost a running back with the ball in his hands. You can line him up wherever you'd like. He has the ability to work underneath but also do a little damage outside the numbers. He has shown the ability to make the back shoulder catch on a consistent basis. A throw that Brady has trade to connect with Johnson, Lloyd and KT last year. Obviously not the biggest or fastest kid but he's a good route runner with very good hands. He plays bigger than he is and always seems to be open. I really like this kid and want to see him get some reps.

I really do like our group ( I'm far from a homer ), but there are serious concerns. I'm sure many other Pats fans are sick of talking about, "if so and so stays healthy", but health is a major issue with this group. I think Dobson could be a huge story that people are not paying attention to. It's almost a given that Amendola will be hurt at some point. Those are two guys that we really need to play a full 16. Especially since it looks like the more time passes the more we're moving away from the two tight end set.

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Welcome to the board. Happy hour is from 4-7 on weeknights, and anytime the Jets lose.

OT but...how do you know what grundle smells like?...and why not use SmellsLikeAzz instead for the sake of clarity.

Nice first post, IMO.

Thank you sirs.

I've never smelled anyone else's grundle, only mine. I've taken a whiff shaving my balls. So it's not weird or anything. Never wiped my ass and smelled it.

Hael said:

Thomkins is pretty damn good against press coverage, in fact thats his primary strength. His route running is spotty (he makes judgement errors), he doesn't have great length or hands but he does have some speed and he's pretty shifty.

But what he does do, better than anyone on our roster save perhaps Edelman, is have an absolutely elite release. He torched Revis on multiple occassions during that Tampa game last year, who is easily the best in the NFL at press coverage. That's when I started to really be impressed by this kid. It's also really hard to find in the NFL and why it would be ashame if we had to release him.

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Are you talking about Kenbrell Thompkins? Or another Thompkins on the roster, who I don't know about?

I cannot even begin to describe how much I disagree with your assessment of his "strengths," although we all have different opinions and I surely respect yours.

Aside from the DEN game, Thompkins was totally invisible from mid-October through mid-January. As a matter of fact, if you take out the one game where he actually contributed (DEN), then he had a total of FIVE catches in the Patriots last 12 games of the season......

An "elite" release?"

"Pretty damn good against press coverage?"

"He does have some speed, and is pretty shifty?" (4.54 forty yd dash)

It would be "a shame" if we had to release him? A 6'0" UDFA who had trouble beating man coverage, couldn't get on the same page as Brady, is clearly on the roster bubble, and contributed for a month or so when all of Gronk/Vereen/Amendola were out? Again..I highly disagree, but appreciate your enthusiasm and hope that he makes it as our WR4/5/6, even though I don't want to see him on the field very often.

Hael said:

I for one don't think that either Amendola or Lafell are locks at this point. I'd say Edelman, Slater and Dobson are locks and after that its wide open and a competition.

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I highly disagree with this as well. Amendola would count 1.2m vs the cap this year + another 3.6m vs the cap next year, according to Miguel if let go now after 6/1. He's also clearly our best blocking WR, as has been pointed out many times. I'd be very surprised if Amendola were let go at this point, not to mention very disappointed that a position which was improved upon and addressed, would be weakened going in training camp.

I can see your point a little more with LaFell, but he's a pretty decent option at the price. He's also improved in every single year, and offers a nice RZ target. Some even believe he can play the joker TE role as well.

Joker said:

OT but...how do you know what grundle smells like?...and why not use SmellsLikeAzz instead for the sake of clarity.

Nice first post, IMO.

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You've got to admit, grundle is a much funnier word to use.

LaFell is a lock for the first preseason game and not much else.

Got me to thinking...

Found out this morning that there is a newer, more fashionable(?) word for "taint"...

"Surfeit"... an excess amount of something. Whis is appropo for our WR corps...

You can teach old dogs new vocabulary...

Off the top of my head, here is a short list that the "immediate gratification" crew would have kicked to the side of the road if the their rookie year production was the only thing that mattered,

David Givens
Alshon Jeffrey
Victor Cruz
Demitrious Thomas
Cecil Shorts

And there are probably a "Surfeit" of other very good WR's who have had rookie years that were a lot worse than what our Rookie group had last year.

BTW- What is this obsession with so called #! WR's. The Pats have managed very well for a great majority of the BB era WITHOUT one. Tom Brady has built a HOF career while only having a "true" #1 WR for 2 yrs. Why is it that some people think that the sun would suddenly shine if only the Pats had this "white whale" of a player.

If you feel you can't live without one, then use Gronk as your #1 and let it go.

BTW=2. By and large, this thread has been both funny and informative. Good job

SmellsLikeGrundle said:

Thank you sirs.

I've never smelled anyone else's grundle, only mine. I've taken a whiff shaving my balls. So it's not weird or anything. Never wiped my ass and smelled it.

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That's probably because you aren't a JETS fan. I'm surprised more of the fans aren't wearing helmets while sitting in the stands. Most of them seem eligible for Special Ed benefits.

People are too hung up on money invested in LaFell. The Patriots will cut him if he cannot beat out any of the other guys and there is no real evidence to say he can, except that the Patriots thought he could based on their review of his film. However, we all know how great the Patriots are at figuring out how well a WR will pick up the system.

Thompkins can get open, Brady just was not throwing him the ball. We know Brady has been locking onto one receiver more often than not in the last 5 years. I call it Wes Welker disease.

SmellsLikeGrundle said:

Here's the thing with Boyce. He can't utilize his greatest strength, which is his speed and quickness.The only time he can really showcase it is when he's running in a straight line. He's not able to use it in short/intermediate routes. He's not great at getting in/out of his breaks. I suspect that this has to do with his route running or lack thereof.

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I'm not ready to go there yet, Boyce had an unfortunate season with the broken bone in his foot to an apparent slowness is getting the offense to getting hurt again once he had a chance. I'm expecting a big time second year jump from him. If not then he'll quickly get lost on the depth chart. Overall I'm just happy that we should have a real group of WR this year, tons off questions regarding Dobson's foot, Boyce's 2nd year jump, Thompkins' crash down the stretch, LaFell's learning a new offense but last year the first three were rookies and LaFell was a Panther so despite the questions we should be much improved; we'd better be.

To answer the question I like Boyce as Edelman's backup/dual slot buddy. We're heavy there with those two, DA and Gallon so something will give if they all look good. But unlike Underhill I think KT and Boyce can both make the team if they look ready and DA may be the one to go; reading Miguel's page the best I can trading DA would save $2.8M this year and cost $3.6M next year; carrying over the $2.8M means it would cost us less than $1M to trade him. Not that I hate him at all but I see him as more of an insurance policy. If Boyce struggles, DA is in. But if all the young guys look good I would expect them to go in that direction.

The reality is forgetting roster spots I would expect Edeman, Dobson, DA, KT, Boyce, LaFell to make the team - that's one extra already - and Gallon intrigues. My guess is we keep one extra and just one from that list goes and it will work itself out in camp via injury or bad performance. In the best case, though, that they all look good, a minor DA trade could happen.

Joey007 said:

I'm not understanding this high praise for Boyce. If I do recall, he only had nine catches last year. While the speed and talent is undeniable, he is yet to prove to be anything more than guys like Tate and Price were. And why is everyone saying he's a lock as a KR? I remember him having one or two nice returns last year, but he's yet to prove he can be a stud at KR either. Just a lot of unproven talent if you ask me, maybe he'll change my mind in the next few months. We'll see.

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I find it strange that Boyce is considered a near-lock by so many. His rookie year compared unfavorably to Chad Jackson and Bethel Johnson, and while they both hung around for two years, only to regress, Boyce has to improve substantially. I would put Boyce in the prove it or lose it category, but KT is not necessarily his only competition - whoever else is returning kicks is his competition. I simply don't think he is nearly as good a WR as KT yet, and KT is likely to have improved, too. I expect that Boyce will have to win a job as KR, if he wants to work on his route running long enough to catch up and realize his potential on offense.

supafly said:

Are you talking about Kenbrell Thompkins? Or another Thompkins on the roster, who I don't know about?

I cannot even begin to describe how much I disagree with your assessment of his "strengths," although we all have different opinions and I surely respect yours.

Aside from the DEN game, Thompkins was totally invisible from mid-October through mid-January. As a matter of fact, if you take out the one game where he actually contributed (DEN), then he had a total of FIVE catches in the Patriots last 12 games of the season......

An "elite" release?"

"Pretty damn good against press coverage?"

"He does have some speed, and is pretty shifty?" (4.54 forty yd dash)

It would be "a shame" if we had to release him? A 6'0" UDFA who had trouble beating man coverage, couldn't get on the same page as Brady, is clearly on the roster bubble, and contributed for a month or so when all of Gronk/Vereen/Amendola were out? Again..I highly disagree, but appreciate your enthusiasm and hope that he makes it as our WR4/5/6, even though I don't want to see him on the field very often.




I highly disagree with this as well. Amendola would count 1.2m vs the cap this year + another 3.6m vs the cap next year, according to Miguel if let go now after 6/1. He's also clearly our best blocking WR, as has been pointed out many times. I'd be very surprised if Amendola were let go at this point, not to mention very disappointed that a position which was improved upon and addressed, would be weakened going in training camp.

I can see your point a little more with LaFell, but he's a pretty decent option at the price. He's also improved in every single year, and offers a nice RZ target. Some even believe he can play the joker TE role as well.

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I absolutely agree with what you have said here, Thompkins is this years Justin Francis, an UDFA who had some success as a rookie due in large part to the lack of viable options at his position, people fall in love with these players and start comparing them to all pro players. I remember last offseason Francis was the next Lammar Houston and going to register 10 sacks, this season Thompkins is Chad Johnson. Truth be told Thompkins lacks elite talent by NFL standards for a WR, he is a hard worker and may stick but I see him as a long shot personally, the more I think about it the less likely I view him making the roster. Josh Boyce is an excellent talent, he has the speed, and skillset to be a Hilton or Cobb type player, he has elite talents in terms of speed and agility. Jeremy Gallon is another player that I think Thompkins will be battling with, if the team intends to move away from Amendola after this season (when he no longer caries negative cap) they may view Gallon as the replacement, they may not risk trying to keep him on the practice squad.

captain stone said:

"An embarrassment of riches" is a phrase I would not have thought to use to describe our situation
at WR. An embarrassment of slot receivers is more like it. When Brandon LaFell is your #1 outside WR, then you haven't done enough to strengthen the position.

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Agreed. There are a lot of young receivers and i think they could develop into a good group, but they could also be trivia questions in a couple years.

Given our history of what type of receivers have had success (championship type) with Brady, I think it's a good group. I know you disagree with that, though. Given that Dobson handled his foot, like Edelman did last year, he should be ready to be that #1 outside receiver and LaFell is a very useful utility player they should use in a lot of roles.

LaFell is not a lock in my book, LaFell/Thompkins/Boyce could all be fighting for 2 rosters spots.

SmellsLikeGrundle has to be the best username I've ever seen on any message board ever.

I absolutely am loving this thread. All the different opinions are very interesting and I'm learning a lot

I see Lafell, Edelman and Dola as locks.

Boyce and Thompkins fighting for a roster spot and I don't know what to think about Dobston, I agree with some poster who said yesterday is a PUP candidate.

Unfortunately we spent a 2nd round pick in a QB who will never play, instead of adding real value for this season.

People always bring up this story that Brady has won multiple SB with jags at receiver, all right, 10 years ago. Maybe the game is a little different today. Can't expect Brady to do his magic all the time, we just witnessed a GOAT season, a QB taking a team devastated by injuries, filled with rookies WRs, without his best offensive weapon, with a huge impact loss not only in the field in Hernandez, taking a team that could go 8-8 or worse to 12-4 with many spectacular comebacks, BUT, when it's win or go home time, they struggle, because no defense in NFL is afraid of slot receivers and rookies.