Dreams of a WR Trade

Snake Eyes said:

It could also help him improve a great deal.

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It could but the functional training has to be specific to football, 15lbs added to his forearms and biceps/triceps is not going to make him faster off the edge.

Brady6 said:

It could but the functional training has to be specific to football, 15lbs added to his forearms and biceps/triceps is not going to make him faster off the edge.

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Those forearms would make Popeye look like Pee Wee Herman.

I wouldn’t say the training has to be specific to football but rather that the effects of the training need to have direct applicability to football, i.e. if the muscle growth is the result of moving heavy weights very slowly the player is going to get good at moving heavy things slowly, not explosively like we’d like, he might also injure the hell out of himself if he suddenly moves explosively after training in a completely different manner.

Brady6 said:

It could but the functional training has to be specific to football, 15lbs added to his forearms and biceps/triceps is not going to make him faster off the edge.

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Of course, I stated before symmetrical muscle gain that translates to the field or else he is like me LOL. And of course just anybody can't add muscle lose fat and then go kick @$$ in the NFL. To the people suggesting i meant adding muscle losing fat was all there was to being a good player. Of course He has to be a good player first. Then getting more powerful and adding quickness makes him better. Also if fat is to low that can be bad,I know. That's why I say 6-7% body fat is ideal range.

All I'm saying is if a DE let's say is 6'4 268 and 10-12% body fat. Let's say he is a very decent player. If he follows a strict nutrition program any with very aggressive off season training,conditioning, flexibility training and returns in September at 260-265 at 7-8% he is in another league as an athletic specimen. He added in the neighborhood of 10-12lbs of muscle and lost about 15lbs or so of speed draining fat. Lots of players have done this and became better players.

We are a team/fan base appreciative of hard work,discipline,intelligence,coaching and going the extra miles the spoiled player won't. So why not take advantage of hard work,nutrition, and aggressive conditioning,strength, flexibility training the spoiled guys won't do or think they dont need. Of course it has to be musclegrowth , power that translates to the field. The team trainers and additional professional trainers the team/players find knows more about what kind of training than I do.

I know for sure Dominique Easley takes training/nutrition very serious. How many NFL DTs/players will be a lean 295-300 and can perform a split like its nature while benching 30+ reps. No doubt Dominique has freakish natural ability but he also works hard and consistently looks for ways to get better. Hightower and Collins are quite the specimens. Hightower 10-15lbs leaner( and that's very minimal) is in a physical ability category no other MLB can even measure up to. Freakishly powerful and pretty quick for a 255 mlb. Collins is as explosive,athletic and lb for lb powerful as anybody in the nfl. He can add 10-12lbs of muscle with no loss in his 4.5/40 quickness. At 260-263 lbs would be nothing short of AWESOME. I put him as more raw freakish ability than Con( future vict) Miller.

As for the fantasy stud wr. First off help me out here guys. Why are some pro bowl WRs considered #4 or 5WRs. I dont get that. AT ALL! I don't want an overpriced Wallace or Calvin. Just somebody who can win on 3rd and 10 when the Defense is geared to stop us. My favorite wr is a guy who relies on route running and timing with his QB but can win on his own and make a play on his own on 3rd and 10 or 13. Or seperate deep or highpoint the ball when necessary deep. Marquise Lee was one of my favorite players in this draft. Marty Bryant was raw but moldable to do everything I mentioned. I would have loved Emanuel Sanders to pair with Dobson as a threat/duo. Boy would that have completed our offense. I am so frustrated Edelman $$ should have been thrown at Sanders. We would have been as awesome as Denver probably better. I'm going on a limb and saying Sanders makes the Broncos far better than Decker. Just watch. I invite all to insult me if I'm wrong. But Its a garuntee. Broncos have plenty of other big fast guys who are also possession WRs. Sanders adds them the blazing speed that was missing to take advantage of big physical Defenses like seahawks. Manning's timing along with route running coaching will make him a consistent playmaker. I garuntee this. We will watch him and wonder why he isn't doing those things for us. Especially since there were more balls to go around in our offense,especially if injuries happen to Gronk/Amendola. We could have featured Dobson/Sanders then Amendola in the slot and if Gronk stays healthy an offense on par with 2007. Sanders is a deep threat but also intermediate threat. Elway knew what he was getting there. Just watch, but I really really hope I'm wrong there. Then Vereen if he stays healthy is top 3 pass catching RB or better. He has shiftiness and very underrated power. (Watch him catch pass while simultaneously break Laron Landry tackle) He is bound to put it all together. We don't need a Calvin. Just a legit talent who can win on 3rd and 10 or more and scare defenses. That's why we are upset we didn't acquire any wr really. We don't need a Calvin,just a good threat while Dobson grows into a very legit #2 and compliment the whole offense. Main thing, really, No QB in this league could better take advantage of a wr who opens things up for the entire offense and creating space for them. Don't need a Calvin,just a wr that's feared and good enough to be consistent even when Defense keys on pass. No qb in the NFL including Manning,Rodgers or Bree's can better take advantage of the space a legit WR will create for every other player on offense. With Tom Brady at qb, a Marquise Lee or Sanders or even a 33 yr old Andre Johnson would be better than other teams signing 2 Calvin Johnson's and a Jimmy Graham and Shady McCoy cuz of how he could take advantage of the space created for other weapons.

Brady6 said:

It could but the functional training has to be specific to football, 15lbs added to his forearms and biceps/triceps is not going to make him faster off the edge.

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I wish Johnson would just say f*ck it and take a vet-minimum 1 year deal to play for the Patriots and a VERY real shot at the SuperBowl

I wont hold my breath anymore on the Andre Johnson scenario. Too many things have to happen but stranger have occurred to land us Revis............who no one in their mother thought it was a reality because of the raw money and cap implications.....but behold he is donning a "Flying Elvis" at this point.

I have full faith the Pats offense will be fine if they don't land a true no.1 receiver. I do wish for a competent receiving threat behind Gronk which is obvious enough. I just wish Brady had the toys of some of these other "Diva" QB's that have ridiculous weapons and all excuses when they lose the games that count....Brady always does more with less but I want to see him blow the "forehead" out of the water next year and stop all this "Brady has lost his abilities" crap that keeps getting vomited out of these sports-writers mouths. Him having an Andre Johnson-type threat would be fun as hell to watch. I expect big things, though, from Dobson. I just don't see him as a true No.1 but more so a Decker role like in Denver where he'd excel as part of a tandem.

The defense on the other hand has me frothing at the mouth to watch....if we could get a DE to step up opposite Chandler then its possibly the best we've fielded since '03-'04

jays52 said:

I've tried to stay off this for a while, but I really need to chime in here on the whole "lose fat, gain muscle" thing as it relates to athletic performance. It is an extremely myopic view of performance factors and a gross oversimplification of what is happening. It shows a strong bias towards the big for nothing, all show no go bodybuilding/aesthetics realm of understanding for pure hypertrophy and fat loss. Just as calorie excesses/deficits and cut/bulk cycles are bullsh*t in a vacuum, bigger=stronger and leaner=quicker is bullsh*t in a vacuum...especially when we start talking about how 3-5% bodyfat is good for athletes in a game largely determined by recovery. Their endocrine systems would be thrashed at that low a level without serious augmentation with a very short half life delivered via nearly daily injection (GH). This is exactly why you see nearly every player on the teams between 7 and 25 percent depending on position with the real superathletes like backers, backs, and ends being all right around 10%.

Got off topic there, but real world explosion and power are not generated solely by the amount of skeletal muscle one has. It's a far more complicated equation that uses the nervous system, core power, mobility, torque, triple extension, and force generation throughout range of the movement. That's why there's obese 5'9 Olympic lifters who can dunk and big for nothing bodybuilders that can't jump onto a 36" box. I'm also a gym rat and every four months I put myself through a hypertrophy phase when I don't have any grappling competitions on the horizon. I usually put on a few pounds of lean muscle in a 4 week mesophase and usually drop a tiny bit of fat while I'm at it. After that phase I am athletically a sack of garbage. Time under tension and single joint isolated contractions against resistance get you big really quick. They also make you a weak b*tch really quick because you down regulate all the pathways activated and conditioned by explosive movements, holistic body engagement, and all the hormones activated by progressive heavy load compound training. Your speed goes to sh*t, your strength goes to sh*t, your explosion goes to sh*t, your anaerobic capacity goes to sh*t, and most of all your recovery goes to sh*t if you are not making functional activations...but you will look like Channing Tatum .

I'm all for players becoming more functionally powerful, explosive, and agile but to continually say an athlete that you don't have a deep understanding of needs to add muscle or lose fat is a gross oversimplification. It's pretty safe to assume that NFL strength and conditioning coaches are world class at what they do and know their athletes very well. Players have playing weight ranges in their contracts for a reason and their goal is not to play at that weight at 2% bf with a spray tan.

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Dude train me please

Gymrat said:

Of course, I stated before symmetrical muscle gain that translates to the field or else he is like me LOL. And of course just anybody can't add muscle lose fat and then go kick @$$ in the NFL. To the people suggesting i meant adding muscle losing fat was all there was to being a good player. Of course He has to be a good player first. Then getting more powerful and adding quickness makes him better. Also if fat is to low that can be bad,I know. That's why I say 6-7% body fat is ideal range.

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6-7% is pretty low, many of the guys that look like bodybuilders seem to be injured quite a bit, although I don't have data to back it up I think there needs to be a balance of fat/muscle/hard tissue.

IMO the body recomposition should be a side effect of training done to optimize the balance of strength/flexibility/coordination. It's also very possible that a player has a high degree of body skills at a certain weight while being a bit chubby and may significantly lose skill if they quickly change their body.

Triumph said:

If you point out concerns or criticisms about the NE WRs it stirs the primates into a frenzy.

Theyll gang up together and throw feces at you.

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The caveat is that such concerns or criticisms must be intelligently applied, which requires an understanding of the Patriots' passing scheme. The system requires a very specific set of abilities at WR giving physical and mental aspects equal emphasis. That's where many folks here miss the boat in assessing what they "see" happening.

Going off-topic, only not to create another thread for a simple question:

When will Dobson be able to practice? Is there any schedule?

Actually I think players have injuries at various bf% Now some players who over juice tend to get injured. I'm not in favor of 4-5% body fat,that can become counterproductive. Different positions naturally peak at different bf%. Another thing,lowering fat must be done carefully/healthy. Rather than just dropping carbs very low. Some players don't need to lean out to be explosive. They are athletic freaks even at 10\11% or whatever. Some players though need to do the little things like leaning up some to gain a step. Or go the extra mile for more flexibility like tae kwan do,yoga, and gymnastics training etc.

Gymrat said:

Actually I think players have injuries at various bf% Now some players who over juice tend to get injured. I'm not in favor of 4-5% body fat,that can become counterproductive. Different positions naturally peak at different bf%. Another thing,lowering fat must be done carefully/healthy. Rather than just dropping carbs very low. Some players don't need to lean out to be explosive. They are athletic freaks even at 10\11% or whatever. Some players though need to do the little things like leaning up some to gain a step. Or go the extra mile for more flexibility like tae kwan do,yoga, and gymnastics training etc.

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Instead of continuing to masturbate about this kind of stuff, why not explain why you disagree with my post above (No. 108).

Tunescribe said:

The caveat is that such concerns or criticisms must be intelligently applied, which requires an understanding of the Patriots' passing scheme. The system requires a very specific set of abilities at WR giving physical and mental aspects equal emphasis. That's where many folks here miss the boat in assessing what they "see" happening.

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Then its the system that's flawed in that case because the WRs consistently struggle terribly in January against better teams. Schemes help but it can't overcome a lack of talent. Even former players( bruschi,Evans,mcginest)from the championship teams are saying how the WRs are sub par and Brady deserves better.

Gymrat said:

Then its the system that's flawed in that case because the WRs consistently struggle terribly in January against better teams. Schemes help but it can't overcome a lack of talent. Even former players( bruschi,Evans,mcginest)from the championship teams are saying how the WRs are sub par and Brady deserves better.

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"Consistently struggle terribly in January" ... What are you basing this on other than alleged comments (links, please) by former players? Over the last three consecutive AFC title games, Patriots wide receivers caught 41 passes in a passing game heavily featuring tight ends. WR hardly is an Achilles heel in this offense, which year-in/year-out is one of the league's most balanced. What you're trying to say just doesn't hold water.

JayNM said:

Going off-topic, only not to create another thread for a simple question:

When will Dobson be able to practice? Is there any schedule?

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They chose to wait in hopes that the situation would resolve itself without surgery, so by doing that, they put themselves in line for a much deeper recovery period into the summer.

I believe the initial reports were that it'd take him a full 3 months from the date of the surgery, so your question will be much better answered in the next 6 weeks or so.

He may sit out the first couple of weeks of TC, he may be ready to go at the start (doubtful, I think), or he may even end up having to be placed on PUP to start the season if they are extra cautious and/or he's had a setback. Hopefully, we'll know more in the next 6 weeks when they are getting ready to start up, but I doubt he'd be ready to go right off the bat.

Tunescribe said:

"Consistently struggle terribly in January" ... What are you basing this on other than alleged comments (links, please) by former players? Over the last three consecutive AFC title games, Patriots wide receivers caught 41 passes in a passing game heavily featuring tight ends. WR hardly is an Achilles heel in this offense, which year-in/year-out is one of the league's most balanced. What you're trying to say just doesn't hold water.

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They routinely fail on third and long. They fail to sustain drives. I'm not discussing this. Its ridiculous. The wonder twins r mediocre WRs at best. Even former players u used to cheer for r saying Brady deserves better. His former teammates. They lack size,burst,fluidity, athleticism of other good WRs. Do u think Edelman is as good as Hilton? Yet colts see the need to upgrade and add playmakers. This offense stalls in January. Everybody outside of homers know we need a wr opposite Dobson. Edelman/Amendola are #3 slot WRs. Both them on the field at same time is a handicap. Edelman should never have been resigned. We have already had a slot. Amendola. DOBSON WITH EMMANUEL SANDERS WOULD HAVE BEEN LETHAL DUO. Instead watch him tear it up in Denver now. Let's see who makes plays this year. I will requote this when season begins and Sanders lights it up while we all wonder why isn't he doing those things for us. NOBODY showed Edelman any interest. They KNEW Brady made him as he was only wr he knew real well. Look at Edelman catches, he was mostly covered and Brady forced him the ball in tight windows while he was blanketed in coverage. He was just our most experienced with Brady. EVERY team saw that. NOBODY wanted Edelman in the open market. He resigned because he was UNWANTED ANYWHERE ELSE. Our Wr corps is filled with players NOBODY else wanted. When healthy Amendola is a good slot with an extra gear on short routes. Edelman shows less separation. If we really wanted him back we could have got him cheaper because he got zero interest in free agency.

Gymrat said:

They routinely fail on third and long. They fail to sustain drives. I'm not discussing this. Its ridiculous. The wonder twins r mediocre WRs at best. Even former players u used to cheer for r saying Brady deserves better. His former teammates. They lack size,burst,fluidity, athleticism of other good WRs. Do u think Edelman is as good as Hilton? Yet colts see the need to upgrade and add playmakers. This offense stalls in January. Everybody outside of homers know we need a wr opposite Dobson. Edelman/Amendola are #3 slot WRs. Both them on the field at same time is a handicap. Edelman should never have been resigned. We have already had a slot. Amendola. DOBSON WITH EMMANUEL SANDERS WOULD HAVE BEEN LETHAL DUO. Instead watch him tear it up in Denver now. Let's see who makes plays this year. I will requote this when season begins and Sanders lights it up while we all wonder why isn't he doing those things for us. NOBODY showed Edelman any interest. They KNEW Brady made him as he was only wr he knew real well. Look at Edelman catches, he was mostly covered and Brady forced him the ball in tight windows while he was blanketed in coverage. He was just our most experienced with Brady. EVERY team saw that. NOBODY wanted Edelman in the open market. He resigned because he was UNWANTED ANYWHERE ELSE. Our Wr corps is filled with players NOBODY else wanted. When healthy Amendola is a good slot with an extra gear on short routes. Edelman shows less separation. If we really wanted him back we could have got him cheaper because he got zero interest in free agency.

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I didn't realize that Deus has a brother posting on his board.

TBR said:

I wish Johnson would just say f*ck it and take a vet-minimum 1 year deal to play for the Patriots and a VERY real shot at the SuperBowl

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Sounds nice but why should he. Why would he? When limited WRs like the wonder twins Edelman/Amendola are being payed far above what they would ever be payed anywhere else. Andre Johnson should play for the minimum when them terribly limited WRs are being payed above their worth. I acknowledge he would need to restructure, but the minimum is asking him to much. Especially when wilfork just got 8mil a yr. Amendola 6\7 million a year and Edelman what was it 5/6 mil a year. Restructure yes maybe, league minimum he will never do and he shouldn't have to.

Is that the only way we get a wr. When he plays for free practically. Yet slots are being paid. Aging, declining Mankins is making $10 mil and won't take a pay cut. There was some truth to Talibs hints in his comments. They pay them mediocre guys but don't want to give any $$ to a real talented building block/game changer.

An interesting factoid on this whole trade stuff, the current Pats roster has 0 players here via trade....

INOW there are not a lot of trades that BB makes...

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...d/4763459/patriots-influence-in-san-francisco

revert back to gym stuff now...

Joker said:

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