What's the better scenario - Garropolo or a potential tank?

mcmurtry86 · May 26, 2014

Gumby said:
Ok, you tank to get the 1 overall...... Last I checked

1. The 1 overall isn't always a qb.
2. The top qb isn't always a great qb ( Ryan leaf anyone).
3. Even if you 'suck for luck' successfully, exactly how many SBs has that won the dolts so far. (1-2in the playoffs ain't that impressive)
4. Who says you need all that to win it all anyway, gints 2x and rat birds were marginal w-l playoff tms who got hot & there are numerous mgr qbs who won a sb
5. Besides aiming low isn't a way to build a winning psychology in team and that can carry fwd aswell.

All in all sucking is a sucker strategy!

Ryan Leaf wasn't the top QB in his draft. The guy who was has worked out pretty well.

convertedpatsfan · May 26, 2014

Honestly, you'd think fans of the franchise who found Tom Brady after Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe out wouldn't be so quick to tank. If that wasn't enough, then watching a 7th-round college back-up go 11-5 when Brady got hurt should have been. BB has worked hard to develop a team that can deal with adversity constantly, but it's clear many fans will throw in the towel at the first hint of trouble.

Injuries don't have to last the entire season. The Packers made the play-offs last season with Rodgers missing 4 games because Matt Flynn was able to hold it together for a 2-2 record. Romo was injured and couldn't play the last game of the season and Kyle Orton gave them a chance to make the play-offs.

The season before, the Redskins needed back-up Kirk Cousins to come in mid-game to pull out a comeback win over the Ravens, then win the next game as a starter to make the play-offs. The same season, the Bears needed a game from Jason Campbell but he lost, as they missed the play-offs by one game. The year before that, the Bears would also see Caleb Hanie go 0-4 filling in for Cutler as they missed the play-offs by 2 games.

So back-ups matter, even if a starter isn't lost for the season.

patsfaninpa · May 26, 2014

convertedpatsfan said:
Honestly, you'd think fans of the franchise who found Tom Brady after Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe out wouldn't be so quick to tank. If that wasn't enough, then watching a 7th-round college back-up go 11-5 when Brady got hurt should have been. BB has worked hard to develop a team that can deal with adversity constantly, but it's clear many fans will throw in the towel at the first hint of trouble.

Injuries don't have to last the entire season. The Packers made the play-offs last season with Rodgers missing 4 games because Matt Flynn was able to hold it together for a 2-2 record. Romo was injured and couldn't play the last game of the season and Kyle Orton gave them a chance to make the play-offs.

The season before, the Redskins needed back-up Kirk Cousins to come in mid-game to pull out a comeback win over the Ravens, then win the next game as a starter to make the play-offs. The same season, the Bears needed a game from Jason Campbell but he lost, as they missed the play-offs by one game. The year before that, the Bears would also see Caleb Hanie go 0-4 filling in for Cutler as they missed the play-offs by 2 games.

So back-ups matter, even if a starter isn't lost for the season.

How bout it? Not to mention Belichick was the def. co-ordinator for the 1990 NY Giants who won it with Jeff Hostetler. I wasn't in favor of drafting Jimmy G because we have Mallett. Whom I liked coming out of college. I figured if we needed a backup qb for this year he'd be the guy. I think Belichick views Jimmy G as Brady's successor.

AzPatsFan · May 26, 2014

The 2008 edition was the last gasp of an old slowing team. It won on experience everywhere except QB. BB knew that, and was tearing it apart for the forbidden word 're-building' that off season.

Cassell has been a much better than average QB, who earned a trip to the Probowl, with a fair supporting cast. I doubt there is the talent at the Vikes to do so, but he could turn Houston back into a winner, IMHO.

Bob O 'Brien will see what the Fitz, Harvard kid, can do and if he plays within himself, he might guide them to a winning season.

AzPatsFan · May 26, 2014

convertedpatsfan said:
Honestly, you'd think fans of the franchise who found Tom Brady after Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe out wouldn't be so quick to tank. If that wasn't enough, then watching a 7th-round college back-up go 11-5 when Brady got hurt should have been. BB has worked hard to develop a team that can deal with adversity constantly, but it's clear many fans will throw in the towel at the first hint of trouble.

Injuries don't have to last the entire season. The Packers made the play-offs last season with Rodgers missing 4 games because Matt Flynn was able to hold it together for a 2-2 record. Romo was injured and couldn't play the last game of the season and Kyle Orton gave them a chance to make the play-offs.

The season before, the Redskins needed back-up Kirk Cousins to come in mid-game to pull out a comeback win over the Ravens, then win the next game as a starter to make the play-offs. The same season, the Bears needed a game from Jason Campbell but he lost, as they missed the play-offs by one game. The year before that, the Bears would also see Caleb Hanie go 0-4 filling in for Cutler as they missed the play-offs by 2 games.

So back-ups matter, even if a starter isn't lost for the season.

Those are great examples of why BB keeps Mallett around, and refuses to consider offers in trade. Draftniks don't seem to get that through their heads, despite BB saying it, over, and over, again.

I also think that Belichick would resign Mallett, if he is able to do so next off-season. The Brady transition is coming sometime, and He would like to have two talented QBs compete for the starting job, post Brady.

It all depends on what Mallett is willing to do. Does he want to try to inherit a Super Bowl contender, or take his chances with a rebuilding situation, elsewhere?

Brady6 · May 26, 2014

Losing is never good for a team. It creates bad habits.

fester · May 27, 2014

Gymrat said:
Cassell had a prime welker and moss in his early 30s. Still missed the playoffs. What was Cassell without a team around him and a good system. What good is 9-10 wins and a playoff exit every year or even 13 wins and dominated in the playoffs. No difference IMHO.

So you're argument is that you're okay with 2-14 seasons for the chance of getting a single player who will magically transform the Patriots into a Super Bowl winner while acknowledging that single elimination tournaments are very high variance events (say hello to David Tyree for me please) but this single player will reduce the variance to either zero or move it to the Patriots favor for a critical sequence of games.

Slightly unrealistic given that the Patriots strategy for 14 years now has been to get to the play-offs with the acknowledgement that single elimination tournaments are high variance events and then see what happens.

lurker1965 · May 27, 2014

ctpatsfan77 said:
The failure of Matt Cassel to make the playoffs was as much the defense as the offense. By season's end he was playing as well as any QB in the league.
L

Yes, he was, but Moss carried that team while Cassel had on the job training. Early, the line that was all probowlers the year before was leading the league in sacks because Cassel would get flustered, step up in the pocket, and someone blocked would reach over a guard and knock him down.
Oh, btw, Matt Cassel went to the pro-bowl... for Kansas City. (Yes, he is a 2 time pro bowler).
Sorry to interrupt a private fight.

dales804 · May 27, 2014

As @Tunescribe stated earlier, BB thinks it's important to have depth at every position, including QB, even with Brady as the starter. He has noted more than once that you have to be prepared and have someone else prepared to step in when needed.

Personally, too, I'd rather have a competitive team than watch my favorite team tank just to get a top pick. That season from the Colts was disgraceful.

BobDigital · May 27, 2014

It depends. My thought is this. Get a franchise QB period.

If you think Garropolo is one then pick him. If there is an Andrew Luck type situation in 2018 tank. Tank all day long. I am not one of those fans that is against it though I know I am probably in a minority on this board.

Basically if you don't have a QB you will have a tough time being competitive for a long period of time. I don't think there is any right way or wrong way to get the guy. There is just getting the guy and not getting the guy. If you don't get him you screwed up. If you do then you played it smart.

NaPolian got fired but I don't think anyone in Indy right now regrets that season. Certainly not the fans or the owner of the team.

Ring 6 · May 27, 2014

Gymrat said:
Cassell had a prime welker and moss in his early 30s. Still missed the playoffs. What was Cassell without a team around him and a good system. What good is 9-10 wins and a playoff exit every year or even 13 wins and dominated in the playoffs. No difference IMHO.

Because teams that win SBs are teams that are competitive. There are virtually no examples of teams that benefitted from sucking.

chasa · May 27, 2014

If you tank then you never know if JG is the future of the team.

i think if this team Sucked for luck like the colts did, BB wouldn't be the coach the next year. Kraft has too much pride for that bs.

1960Pats · May 27, 2014

dales804 said:
As @Tunescribe stated earlier, BB thinks it's important to have depth at every position, including QB, even with Brady as the starter. He has noted more than once that you have to be prepared and have someone else prepared to step in when needed.

Personally, too, I'd rather have a competitive team than watch my favorite team tank just to get a top pick. That season from the Colts was disgraceful.

I remember the look on the faces of Manning, Saturday and a few other players when Polian pulled the plug on them. They looked like they were in shock and were stunned that they weren't taking a shot at a 16-0 season. They had a real good shot at making it with the Jets and Bills coming up.

I also thought that Polian's idiotic excuse afterwards that the Pats went for it and didn't make it was a real cheap shot. It was especially cheap coming from Polian, the man who didn't have the balls to allow his team to even give it a try.

Ivan · May 27, 2014

fester said:
So you're argument is that you're okay with 2-14 seasons for the chance of getting a single player who will magically transform the Patriots into a Super Bowl winner while acknowledging that single elimination tournaments are very high variance events (say hello to David Tyree for me please) but this single player will reduce the variance to either zero or move it to the Patriots favor for a critical sequence of games.

Slightly unrealistic given that the Patriots strategy for 14 years now has been to get to the play-offs with the acknowledgement that single elimination tournaments are high variance events and then see what happens.

Right on the money. The Patriots philosophy is to always field the best possible team you can and that will give you the best opportunity for Championships, and they are right. This isn't basketball, you don't get rings with one great player it takes everyone to get it done, and even with a great team there is more that ultimately comes into play when all is said and done.

Captain Cliche · May 28, 2014

Great QB's can come from later rounds....ya think?
Obviously QB is a hard position to judge as evidenced by the # of first round busts.
It only makes sense to keep taking flyers on later round picks until you hit gold.
The fact that they used a 2 on JG means they wanted him pretty bad.

AzPatsFan · May 28, 2014

Captain Cliche said:
Great QB's can come from later rounds....ya think?
Obviously QB is a hard position to judge as evidenced by the # of first round busts.
It only makes sense to keep taking flyers on later round picks until you hit gold.
The fact that they used a 2 on JG means they wanted him pretty bad.

I would tend to disagree somewhat here.

I would rather think it is a statement of just how complete the post 2009 re-building has been, that BB and Company can afford the luxury to take a third potentially good QB, for even more depth there.

IMHO, supported by BB's actions, the team is preparing to enter a period of several years with League dominance. BB apparently feels he has a squad with both a great Offense and a great Defense, being a distinct possibility.

After all, we entered this draft with Fans discussing whether our chief needs were a reserve TE, or a reserve LB, or perhaps a need for a future DT, if all the incumbents proved unable to to return to health; or were getting old and would have to be replaced in a few years, or were incompetent.

That is hardly a long list of items, even if you concede that they were real. Apparently BB does not agree, that it is absolutely essential you have two star TEs. He had such, for only one or two years of his decade plus era of winning squads.

He DID draft a premium DT. Reserve LBs are NOT a tough commodity to find, but premium, starting LBs which he has, are. You could even argue the preferred way is to sign experienced vet FA LBs, for that standby position. He spent the balance of the Draft attempting to improve an area, the interior OL, that is not even bad, but simply might be better.

BradyFTW! · May 28, 2014

English Patriot said:
Had a thought here that i wanted to get out. So Garropolo is most likely now the backup for the Pats. However alot of people keep saying what was the point in getting him? So i put this to you.

What is the better scenario with the best potential ending:

1) Draft Garropolo as a pure Tom Brady insurance policy and effectively waste a second round pick because everyone knows he will not be playing quarterback for the patriots as long as Brady can throw the way he is. However what you have done is in the worst case scenario that Brady goes down for a season you don't have a scrub sitting behind him to lead you to nowhere and Jimmy G steps in and does a respectable job and maybe steadies the ship to the playoffs and at least give you a shot.

2) Don't draft Garropolo, use that pick on a probable starter somewhere else on the field and risk the chance of having a scrub behind Tom should he go down. However if he was to go down, the guy taking over is not that good and your record most likely takes a big hit leaving you with a high first rounder and a shot at getting your 'Andrew Luck' for the future (even though Belichick is just too damn good to let it turn into a Texans like affair).

So what is it? Have a good backup that could potentially flourish in the worst case scenario or not have one and lose for a while to get a top draft pick and your nailed on future guy at QB?

Over the next 2-3 seasons, I don't see Garropolo's value being in his ability to keep the team competitive if Brady goes down for the season. As constructed, this team won't be anywhere near Super Bowl contention without elite QB play, so even if he's above average from day one, their playoff ceiling with him at QB is an early exit. If he is going to have on-field value in the next couple of seasons, I think it'll be in a situation like that what Green Bay had last year. If Brady goes down for 5-6 games, there's real value in having a backup who can win 3-4 of them as opposed to 1-2. In that scenario, you just need to hang on and keep your head above water until Brady comes back. A competent backup can easily be the difference between a first round bye and a 4 seed, or a 4 seed and missing the playoffs entirely.

BradyFTW! · May 28, 2014

Gumby said:
Okay, you tank to get the #1 overall...... Last I checked:

1. The 1 overall isn't always a QB.
2. The top QB isn't always a great QB (Ryan Leaf anyone).
3. Even if you 'suck for luck' successfully, exactly how many SBs has that won the dolts so far. (1-2 in the playoffs ain't that impressive)
4. Who says you need all that to win it all anyway, gints 2x and rat birds were marginal w-l playoff teams who got hot & there are numerous game-manager QBs who won a SB.
5. Besides aiming low isn't a way to build a winning psychology in team and that can carry fwd as well.

All in all sucking is a sucker strategy!

Ryan Leaf wasn't the top QB in his class. Peyton Manning was. If you're going to make the argument that the top QB available doesn't always pan out, 1998 is maybe the worst possible example you could use.

BradyFTW! · May 28, 2014

lurker1965 said:
Losing is habit forming. I've seen the culture of losing. I don't wanna see it again.

BTW, do you know the logistical nightmare an armored division is?

Apparently so is winning, and that's not something I'd like to stop seeing anytime soon either...

AzPatsFan · May 28, 2014

BradyFTW! said:
Over the next 2-3 seasons, I don't see Garropolo's value being in his ability to keep the team competitive if Brady goes down for the season. As constructed, this team won't be anywhere near Super Bowl contention without elite QB play, so even if he's above average from day one, their playoff ceiling with him at QB is an early exit. If he is going to have on-field value in the next couple of seasons, I think it'll be in a situation like that what Green Bay had last year. If Brady goes down for 5-6 games, there's real value in having a backup who can win 3-4 of them as opposed to 1-2. In that scenario, you just need to hang on and keep your head above water until Brady comes back. A competent backup can easily be the difference between a first round bye and a 4 seed, or a 4 seed and missing the playoffs entirely.

And that is the reason why Mallett is NOT, and has NOT, been for sale!

In the past few years while re-building, replete with obvious flaws, I would agree that this team absolutely needed great Quarterbacking. However, I think it is entering a period, like the early years of the BB dynasty, that a Managerial QB can win, because the overall Team is so strong.

What's the better scenario - Garropolo or a potential tank?

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