My Blueprint for the Defense

patsfaninpa · May 20, 2014

I think the proliferation of the no-huddle calls for multi-dimensional players as Brother Mayo and many of us want. And, we used to have. Ryan Shazier is a perfect example. If you had him and Jamie Collins as your two olb's in a 4-3-4, I'd be pretty comfortable putting one on a slot receiver and the other on a te. Because, you have two safeties over the top offering help. With Revis and Browner taking the top two wr's. If they can't handle the slot wr, you go nickel. I think Logan Ryan is the guy this year once Browner comes back.

mayoclinic · May 20, 2014

Off The Grid said:
Awesome Question!!

My Two Cents:

1 ~ The Salary Cap imposes Relentless Roster Churn upon us all.

2 ~ That means that we've got a very narrow Window of Time within which to develop our Talent.

3 ~ As such, I believe it behooves us to leverage our Talent as efficiently as possible.

4 ~ Yet at the same time, the Modern Era demands an Amorphous Defense.

5 ~ In English ~ for those joining in ~ that means Drafting & Developing an highly Talented, Highly Trained Defense with the Capacity to play highly effectively on all 3 Downs ~ without Substitutions.

6 ~ As I see it, we need to focus our Resources on a Defense that can indeed effectively play all 3 Downs, but is not so spread out in its myriad capabilities ~ as I'm afraid we've become, these last few Years ~ that we are Jacks of All Trades & Masters of None. Flexible But Focused, I say!!

7 ~ The SeaHawks have dramatically illustrated that a focused approach always works best.

8~ Putting all that together, I recommend going one of three possible ways:

9 ~ Forge a Defensive Roster built around the 434 with lots of Speed at the 2nd Level.

10 ~ Or forge a Defensive Roster built around the 344...with lots of Speed at the 2nd Level!!

11 ~ Or just Take The Next Step and build a 425 Base...one that can switch to a 245 instantly.

12 ~ Any of the 3 could produce amazing Success, if we focus on one!!

Patsfaninpa said:
I think the proliferation of the no-huddle calls for multi-dimensional players as Brother Mayo and many of us want. And, we used to have. Ryan Shazier is a perfect example. If you had him and Jamie Collins as your two olb's in a 4-3-4, I'd be pretty comfortable putting one on a slot receiver and the other on a te. Because, you have two safeties over the top offering help. With Revis and Browner taking the top two wr's. If they can't handle the slot wr, you go nickel. I think Logan Ryan is the guy this year once Browner comes back.

I agree with most of this, though I personally see Grid's #9 and #11 converging.

I mentioned earlier in this thread Ellis Johnson, who was the DC at South Carolina, then Jamie Collins's HC his senior year, and now the DC at Auburn. See posts 935, 937 and 939 above. Johnson is famous for running a 4-2-5 "base" defense, which is really a 4-2-1-4 defense, with the "1" being a hybrid LB/S known as the "Star" or "Stud". Johnson inherited a bunch of smaller DBs last year (with the exception of 6'1" 218# Justin Garrett, who excelled at the Star position before getting hurt), but has been recruiting big DBs who can hit like LBs and cover like CBs, such as 6'3" 225# JUCO transfer Derrick Moncrief. Virginia Tech is another school with a DC (Bud Foster) with a history of implementing complex defensive schemes that blur the line between LBs and DBs. It's no surprise that guys like Kam Chancellor, Kyle Fuller (who played LB for a time) and Antone Exum all came out of that system. I think those kind of programs are a great place to look for prospects with the physical and mental attributes and experience necessary to make an accelerated impact in the NFL. See also posts 941 and 949 above.

With guys like Antone Exum (6' 218#), Lonnie Ballentine (6'3" 220#, 4.39 speed), Telvin Smith (6'3" 218#) and Kevin Pierre-Louis (6' 232#, 4.46 speed) the line between the 3rd LB and 5th DB converges. Seattle stayed in their 4-3 "base" for most of the SB against Denver, but with a speedy LB like Malcolm Smith (6' 226#, smaller than SS Kam Chancellor, but with 4.44 speed) they weren't giving up much coverage ability. Guys fitting that mold include current college OLBs Shaq Thompson (6'2" 225#), Derrick Malone (6'1" 216#) and Myles Jack (6'1" 225#) and DBs Justin Garrett, Derrick Moncrief, Josh Harvey-Clemons (6'4" 220#), Cody Prewitt (6'2" 220#) and others.

My biggest disappointment from the 2014 draft was that BB didn't pick up at least one guy like Exum, KPL or Telvin Smith to address that role. Ryan Shazier would have been ideal, but was out of reach, but the other guys were all easily available on day 3. Seattle snapped up KPL, damn them - they have "focus", as Grid notes. Former Seahawks' DC Gus Bradley grabbed Telvin Smith for Jacksonville. Coincidence? I don't think so.

patsfaninpa · May 20, 2014

In my re-draft I did get Telvin Smith. Ha! I passed on Easley and moved down. With that extra 4th I took him. So there!

Luxusdk · May 20, 2014

Mayo do you rule out Ebner as the "Stud / Star" ? He's numbers from the pro day translate aresome to that roll and he's a sure tackler. I think we gonna see more to him this year ( or i hope ).

mayoclinic · May 20, 2014

Luxusdk said:
Mayo do you rule out Ebner as the "Stud / Star" ? He's numbers from the pro day translate aresome to that roll and he's a sure tackler. I think we gonna see more to him this year ( or i hope ).

Ebner certainly has the raw athleticism to project to that position - he compares reasonably well with Kenny Vaccaro, for example, in terms of size and measurables. Grid and I have discussed this for 2 years now. I was hoping that Ebner would have gotten more playing time at safety last year and shown some development, but he really was limited to special teams. I'd love to see it happen, and I'm not ruling anything out, but personally I'm also not putting a lot on it happening at this point.

Luxusdk · May 20, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Ebner certainly has the raw athleticism to project to that position - he compares reasonably well with Kenny Vaccaro, for example, in terms of size and measurables. Grid and I have discussed this for 2 years now. I was hoping that Ebner would have gotten more playing time at safety last year and shown some development, but he really was limited to special teams. I'd love to see it happen, and I'm not ruling anything out, but personally I'm also not putting a lot on it happening at this point.

Pretty sure all would have loved to see more to Ebner last year, but the D had so many injurys that it really wasn't the right time to go with him. Could he have played some instead of Harmon ? probably, but it wasn't the right "role" afterall. Im sure Collins can do it, but that would be Waste of he's talent, he should be used as the "joker".

mayoclinic · May 20, 2014

I found this position-by-position breakdown of the Seahawk's roster interesting:

Seattle defense, position by position - Seattle Seahawks Blog - ESPN

The Seahawk's have lost a lot of defensive depth/talent in Chris Clemons, Red Bryant, Brandon Browner and Walter Thurmond. Their defensive roster looks very thin to me - a few key injuries could be crippling, and they're counting on a lot of unproven guys stepping up. The Pats' defensive roster looks much deeper IMO, especially at DT and in the secondary.

Big-T · May 20, 2014

Mike the Brit said:
Question to the assembled Brains Trust.

How does the no-huddle affect all of this?

It's one thing to plan a series of varied packages to counter different formations, but it's no good if you can't get your personnel substituted onto the field. It strikes me that the option to substitute is becoming more valuable to the defense than to the offense -- a good reason to use the no-huddle even when your team isn't under time pressure.

With the 5-2-4 if a team goes no huddle it's likely still fine because it can morph in and out of 3-4 and 4-3 as well and can match what the offense does pretty well.

AzorianPats · May 20, 2014

mayoclinic said:
I found this position-by-position breakdown of the Seahawk's roster interesting:

http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/6194/seattle-defense-position-by-position

The Seahawk's have lost a lot of defensive depth/talent in Chris Clemons, Red Bryant, Brandon Browner and Walter Thurmond. Their defensive roster looks very thin to me - a few key injuries could be crippling, and they're counting on a lot of unproven guys stepping up. The Pats' defensive roster looks much deeper IMO, especially at DT and in the secondary.

Thank you Mayo! I've been saying that all off-season about the Seahawks.

P.s stop taking these sabbaticals, these forums are a much better place when you post.

patchick · May 20, 2014

Luxusdk said:
Mayo do you rule out Ebner as the "Stud / Star"

I've been penciling in Patrick Chung. While we all know his limitations as a deep safety, Chung is an excellent tackler with the sturdy build to stand up to TEs, and might just be able to revive his career in this kind of role.

mayoclinic · May 20, 2014

patchick said:
I've been penciling in Patrick Chung. While we all know his limitations as a deep safety, Chung is an excellent tackler with the sturdy build to stand up to TEs, and might just be able to revive his career in this kind of role.

I agree that if Chung has a role, that's the role. But I have little confidence in his ability at this point. He was atrocious tackling as well as in coverage last year in Philly, and I just don't see it, but I'll be very pleasantly surprised if he can contribute.

Coach42 · May 20, 2014

We're certainly giving Pete Carroll a lot of props for forward thinking here. As someone who still wakes up screaming from Pete Carroll Pats era flashbacks I find this disturbing. Pete has long had a fascination with large DBs (see Jones, Tebucky) I don't think the construction of the Seahawks defense was some Machiavellian design. At this point it's debatable if they are even the best D in their own division. If Kaepernick puts one more degree of loft on that ball we might be talking about shifting to a SF style 3-4 instead.

This isn't to try to discredit your point. A defense that can stay on the field for 3 downs is invaluable. I just think there is more than one way to do it.

mayoclinic · May 21, 2014

patsfaninpa said:
In my re-draft I did get Telvin Smith. Ha! I passed on Easley and moved down. With that extra 4th I took him. So there!

Good call (though I wouldn't have passed up Easley, personally). I have nothing against James White, but we could have taken Kevin Pierre-Louis at 130, or taken Cam Fleming at 130 and then used 140 on Telvin Smith, and added a lot of speed to our second level. That rankles. I like Jon Halapio, but passing up Antone Exum at 179 rankles even more.

OTAs don't mean much (I remember the rave reviews Chad Jackson got in 2006), but I gnashed my teeth reading this:

Jaguars outside linebacker Telvin Smith lived up to how he describes himself as a player during last week’s two-day rookie minicamp.

The former Florida State standout made plays.

With the team practicing in just helmets with no contact, speed was at a premium. Smith showed why the Jaguars took him in the fifth round of the NFL Draft, despite failing a drug test at the scouting combine.

“We felt like he learned really well, and he moved around really well,” Jaguars defensive coordinator Bob Babich said. “He’s got a long way to go, but we saw a lot of potential. We were able to see what we were looking for in these practices. The type of movement and speed these guys have and you could feel it with him. He showed some acceleration where he was able to finish the play.”

On Friday, the 6-foot-3, 218-pound Smith reacted quickly to a check-down pass, showing off his burst. Later in the practice, he was responsible for second-round pick Marqise Lee in the slot. Quarterback Blake Bortles, the third-overall pick, looked to Lee the whole play while rolling out, but Smith had Lee covered. Bortles kept the ball, running out of bounds. Babich ran 20 yards to go celebrate with Smith.

Jaguars' speedy rookie LB Telvin Smith stands out | jacksonville.com

When you can put a LB on a slot receiver as fast as Marqise Lee and not have him be a liability, it opens up a lot of things for your defense.

patsfaninpa · May 21, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Good call (though I wouldn't have passed up Easley, personally). I have nothing against James White, but we could have taken Kevin Pierre-Louis at 130, or taken Cam Fleming at 130 and then used 140 on Telvin Smith, and added a lot of speed to our second level. That rankles. I like Jon Halapio, but passing up Antone Exum at 179 rankles even more.

OTAs don't mean much (I remember the rave reviews Chad Jackson got in 2006), but I gnashed my teeth reading this:

http://jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2014-05-20/story/speedy-rookie-lb-telvin-smith-stands-out

When you can put a LB on a slot receiver as fast as Marqise Lee and not have him be a liability, it opens up a lot of things for your defense.

captain stone · May 21, 2014

And what really, really rankles about the Halapio pick is that he wasn't even the best OLman
available at 179, by a longshot.

Patriot Missile · May 21, 2014

Mayo, not getting one of Tripp,C Jones,T.Smith or KPL was just flat out disappointing to me. From an outsiders view I really saw that as a need that was just passed up/pissed away.

Evidently BB didn't see it as a priority and that's fine because Collins was emerging and they were probably going to a 43 where only 3 LBs play anyway with probably Browner and Chung coming in as subs. I just saw it as a real opportunity, especially in passing downs/3rd and longs to get some real depth in there with some speed and coverage ability. Really surprised considering they were all there for the taking.

mayoclinic · May 21, 2014

Patriot Missile said:
Mayo, not getting one of Tripp,C Jones,T.Smith or KPL was just flat out disappointing to me. From an outsiders view I really saw that as a need that was just passed up/pissed away.

Evidently BB didn't see it as a priority and that's fine because Collins was emerging and they were probably going to a 43 where only 3 LBs play anyway with probably Browner and Chung coming in as subs. I just saw it as a real opportunity, especially in passing downs/3rd and longs to get some real depth in there with some speed and coverage ability. Really surprised considering they were all there for the taking.

What can I say? I obviously agree (see post #1042 above). That was by far my biggest disappointment with this draft. Add in Antone Exum and Lonnie Ballentine as big DBs who could play a LB/S role, and that makes 6 day 3 guys who the Pats could easily have gotten: KPL at 130, Tripp or T. Smith at 140, Exum at 179, and Ballentine or C. Jones at 244 (or even Jones as a high priority UDFA signing). It was very perplexing to me, especially given that BB showed interest in LBs with coverage ability in FA (Woodyard, reportedly Dakoda Watson) and prior to the draft, and given the flurry of darts thrown at (mostly) low-probability guys in the past 10 days. I thought we could (should) have addressed a major need with quality prospects for very low cost. The LB/S hybrid, along with DE, is my biggest defensive priority for 2015 at this point.

varjao · May 21, 2014

captain stone said:
And what really, really rankles about the Halapio pick is that he wasn't even the best OLman
available at 179, by a longshot.

Not in BB's board, he said he wasn't expecting him to drop that long. Probably this scout was made by the same dude who did scout tavon wilson and duron harmon lol , just kidding. I like the Halapio pick but I don't even get disappointed with BB's draft anymore, so much time spent salivating over prospects since january for this, next year I promisse I will make a better use of this time, studying things from my profession for example.

Looking forward to watch the Jaguars this year, if they could take a W from the Colts it's gonna help us.

captain stone · May 21, 2014

Bill didn't expect Halapio to fall to 179? How clueless is this guy in the draft room now?
Halapio was lucky to be drafted at all. Kraft really, really needs to place another strong voice
in the draft room, for his "brand's" & "product's" sake.

Off The Grid · May 21, 2014

captain stone said:
Bill didn't expect Halapio to fall to 179? How clueless is this guy in the draft room now?
Halapio was lucky to be drafted at all. Kraft really, really needs to place another strong voice
in the draft room, for his "brand's" & "product's" sake.

Gonna put your money where your mouth is, Bro?

This is your chance: Post your BackDraft here and then exult in your Greatness for years to come!!

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