Depth at LB is pretty good actually.

BobDigital said:

I read he did. Maybe the article was wrong but I was lead to believe he had rush LB experience in real game situations. I am not trying to be dishonest here.

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No. He has been a 43 DE his entire pro and college career.
The only mention of him as a LB was last season when the Saints changed to a 34 and had to decide if he was closer to a 300lb DE or a 260LB. He ended up being projected in a spot like DeMarcus Ware, which could be called a LB but is no more than a 43 DE playing in a 34, standing up and acting like a 43 DE. However, he was injured and did not play in that defense.

The comparison to the past several years was a good point. It's not that much different than recent years.

Replacing an experienced starter (Spikes) with a less-experienced starter (Collins), and experienced depth (Fletcher) with less-experienced depth (Beauharnais). [Not stating Collins plays MLB...]

But a lot less depth than when the defense was good.
Check out:
2007
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Adalius Thomas
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Alexander
ST: Pierre Woods, Larry Izzo

2006
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Banta-Cain
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Don Davis
ST: Woods, Alexander, Izzo

2005
OLB: McGinest, Colvin, TBC
ILB: Vrabel, Chad Brown, Davis, Monty Beisel (Bruschi starts on PUP)
ST: Wesly Mallard, Izzo

2004
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, McGinest, TBC
ILB: Bruschi, Phifer, Ted Johnson
ST: Izzo, Klecko, Davis

Admittedly was a 3-4, so you had one additional starter.

Urgent said:

The comparison to the past several years was a good point. It's not that much different than recent years.

Replacing an experienced starter (Spikes) with a less-experienced starter (Collins), and experienced depth (Fletcher) with less-experienced depth (Beauharnais). [Not stating Collins plays MLB...]

But a lot less depth than when the defense was good.
Check out:
2007
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Adalius Thomas
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Alexander
ST: Pierre Woods, Larry Izzo

2006
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Banta-Cain
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Don Davis
ST: Woods, Alexander, Izzo

2005
OLB: McGinest, Colvin, TBC
ILB: Vrabel, Chad Brown, Davis, Monty Beisel (Bruschi starts on PUP)
ST: Wesly Mallard, Izzo

2004
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, McGinest, TBC
ILB: Bruschi, Phifer, Ted Johnson
ST: Izzo, Klecko, Davis

Admittedly was a 3-4, so you had one additional starter.

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This is one of the problems with this type of analysis. You throw names out there but you have to account for the fact that some of these players were a shadow of themselves at that point. The guys marked in red were either well over the hill and not good depth, despite name value, or never any good anyway. And remember there were 4 starters in those seasons.

I agree the depth isn't to much different than in the past. The Rutgers rookie (Beauhanais?) stayed on the roster all year for a reason - he will get shot as a backup if he is ready during training camp. Wasn't sure why he was not on your list and penciled him in.

I think they need at least one more. If one of the rookie free agents steps up great. If not someone will get cut from another team that can help for depth. I think middle linebackers are somewhat like running backs. The special ones are few and far between, but there are more "OK to good" football players at that position, than there are jobs in the NFL.

Brady6 said:

Will Smith is not a LB he is a career DE who spent 1 season as 34 OLB but he seldom dropped into coverage if ever. The depth is about the same as it ended up being in the last few years

2014
Mayo
Hightower
Collins
Beauharnais TBD
TBD

2013
Hightower
Spikes
Collins
Fletcher
Beauharnais
C. White

2012
Mayo
Spikes
Hightower
Rivera
T. White

2011
Mayo
Spikes
Ninkovich
Koutouvides
T. White

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BB4PRez said:

I agree the depth isn't to much different than in the past. The Rutgers rookie (Beauhanais?) stayed on the roster all year for a reason - he will get shot as a backup if he is ready during training camp. Wasn't sure why he was not on your list and penciled him in.

I think they need at least one more. If one of the rookie free agents steps up great. If not someone will get cut from another team that can help for depth. I think middle linebackers are somewhat like running backs. The special ones are few and far between, but there are more "OK to good" football players at that position, than there are jobs in the NFL.

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Personally, I think Beauharnais has a ton of upside, he compares favorably to Navorro Bowman athletically and in playing style.

Bowman
Height: 6004
Weight: 242
Arms: 33”
Hands: 9 7/8”
40 Yard Dash: 4.70
20 Yard Dash: 2.64
10 Yard Dash: 1.60
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 26
Vertical Jump: 29 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'07"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.59
3-Cone Drill: 6.91

Beauharnais
Height: 6007
Weight: 240
Arms: 32 3/4”
Hands: 9 1/8”
40 Yard Dash: 4.67
20 Yard Dash: 2.74
10 Yard Dash: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'10"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.20
3-Cone Drill: 6.99

Urgent said:

The comparison to the past several years was a good point. It's not that much different than recent years.

Replacing an experienced starter (Spikes) with a less-experienced starter (Collins), and experienced depth (Fletcher) with less-experienced depth (Beauharnais). [Not stating Collins plays MLB...]

But a lot less depth than when the defense was good.
Check out:
2007
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Adalius Thomas
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Alexander
ST: Pierre Woods, Larry Izzo

2006
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, Banta-Cain
ILB: Bruschi, Seau, Don Davis
ST: Woods, Alexander, Izzo

2005
OLB: McGinest, Colvin, TBC
ILB: Vrabel, Chad Brown, Davis, Monty Beisel (Bruschi starts on PUP)
ST: Wesly Mallard, Izzo

2004
OLB: Vrabel, Colvin, McGinest, TBC
ILB: Bruschi, Phifer, Ted Johnson
ST: Izzo, Klecko, Davis

Admittedly was a 3-4, so you had one additional starter.

Click to expand...

We ran a 3-4 back then, if you projected those same players in a 4-3 McGinest, Colvin, Banta-Cain, and Vrabel would all be considered 4-3 DEs.

If we played a 3-4 Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Michael Buchanan, Zach Moore, Will Smith, and Jake Bequette would all be considered OLBs.

I look at our base as a 4-2-5 so I expect that rotation to be solid as –

LE – Ninkovich, Buchanan
DT – Easley, Armstead
NT – Wilfork, Kelly
RE – Jones, Smith
SLB – Hightower, Beauharnais
WLB – Mayo, Collins
LCB – Revis
RCB – Dennard
CB/LB – Browner (covers TE)
FS – Ryan
SS – McCourty

pencilneckgeek said:

No. Nink and the Fresh Prince are 3-4 OLBs, or to use Coach B's term "end-of-the-line players." They don't have any experience as 4-3 backers.

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Sorry, but this is untrue in regards to Ninkovich (cant speak for W Smith). Nink has indeed played 4-3 OLB with the Pats. I recall the Pats playing 4-3 in 2009. Nink didn't play much, but it did happen. So, I'm looking at it ESPN's "game rewind" right now. I'm just posting picks of a play where the Pats are clearly in a 4-3, and Nink is at OLB, and on a pass play where he drops into coverage, at that.

Avenger said:

Nink has played 4-3 OLB for us in the past, not his natural fit but he didn't look out of place there, but then who would we have at DE?

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Agreed.

Shockt327 said:

Sorry, but this is untrue in regards to Ninkovich (cant speak for W Smith). Nink has indeed played 4-3 OLB with the Pats. I recall the Pats playing 4-3 in 2009. Nink didn't play much, but it did happen. So, I'm looking at it ESPN's "game rewind" right now. I'm just posting picks of a play where the Pats are clearly in a 4-3, and Nink is at OLB, and on a pass play where he drops into coverage, at that.



Agreed.

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You are correct, Ninkovich was the starting SOLB (SAM) in 2011, he made the switch to LE at the start of 2012.

I presume that this thread was meant as a joke.

AndyJohnson said:

Will Smith is not a LB in any way. He does not have experience at LB.
He was going to be converted to a stand up DE/OLB who would only rush the passer every down in a 34 in NO but got injured. He has not ever and could not ever play 43 OLB.

If Ninkovich is the 4th LB, we are not paper thin. If he isn't we are anorexic in LB depth.

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Bob Digital is likely referring to some recent articles and the official roster listing at patriots.com having Will Smith as a LB. While I agree with you (especially since you are familiar with Ohio State players), this may be the cause for some of the misunderstanding.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster.html

mgteich said:

I presume that this thread was meant as a joke.

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When you take into account the fact that we have 3 good starters, as long as they're used properly (which I assume Belichick to properly assess), and the fact that he was likely seeing Ninkovich as the 4th LB with Smith being listed as a LB on the official site, I can understand the thought process.

The reality is that we need to add one more LB and/or hope that Steve B. will be able to handle backup responsibilities. It's quite possible that we can get that last backer from a cap casualty or summer signing.

Too Feltcher was scooped up by the Bucs.

At this point Beauharnois is the only real LB depth, they need two more imo. TE and LB are the two units that need some help at this point.

If Keller is signed, we'd actually be in reasonable shape at TE. I'm fine with Gronkowski, Keller and Hooman. We also have Williams who is an OK prospect competing with the kids.

We could have drafted a TE. ASJ would have been a fine addition, but wouldn't get many reps if Gronk and Keller were healthy. Fiedorowitz may not be a better backup than Hooman. The rest are probably no better than Williams. The situation isn't great, but the draft and free agent options we pretty poor.

BOTTOM LINE
If Gronk is healthy, we will emphasize the TE position. If he is not, we will not.

Ivan said:

At this point Beauharnois is the only real LB depth, they need two more imo. TE and LB are the two units that need some help at this point.

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mgteich said:

If Keller is signed, we'd actually be in reasonable shape at TE. I'm fine with Gronkowski, Keller and Hooman. We also have Williams who is an OK prospect competing with the kids.

We could have drafted a TE. ASJ would have been a fine addition, but wouldn't get many reps if Gronk and Keller were healthy. Fiedorowitz may not be a better backup than Hooman. The rest are probably no better than Williams. The situation isn't great, but the draft and free agent options we pretty poor.

BOTTOM LINE
If Gronk is healthy, we will emphasize the TE position. If he is not, we will not.

Click to expand...

I would feel better with Keller in the fold but still view their overall depth as shaky, even with him, as he is coming off of serious injury as well.

mgteich said:

If Keller is signed, we'd actually be in reasonable shape at TE. I'm fine with Gronkowski, Keller and Hooman. We also have Williams who is an OK prospect competing with the kids.

We could have drafted a TE. ASJ would have been a fine addition, but wouldn't get many reps if Gronk and Keller were healthy. Fiedorowitz may not be a better backup than Hooman. The rest are probably no better than Williams. The situation isn't great, but the draft and free agent options we pretty poor.

BOTTOM LINE
If Gronk is healthy, we will emphasize the TE position. If he is not, we will not.

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We have not signed Keller yet, I have not even heard rumors of us making a contract offer.

cstjohn17 said:

Depth at LB is pretty good actually.

No, it sucks. Smith is 280 pounds coming off an ACL and has nevre played LB

Gordon/Morris - 2 UDFAs that some people are high on?

People are high if they are high on these guys.

Wait a second, I get it now. This thread was a joke, my bad. Carry on.

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That is NOT the only alternatives. Now that the secondary coverage is much better and deeper, BB can choose to use a SS/LB hybrid for another reserve LB. He drafted two of them high but they both failed on the FS aspects of the position but not on the SS aspects. Both are over 6' and between 210-220 #s. Light for a BB LB but idealfor a SS/LB Hybrid.

Why do you think he resigned Patrick Chung and kept Tavon Wilson? He drafted both to be in the box SS/OLB Hybrids but with poor CB coverage and the desire/need to assist the inferior CBs they couldn't handle the expanded deep Safety areas that were needed in a base 4-3 RS and FS setup. especially with out DL pass rush pressure.

I'm sure that the base will be de-emphasized even more, as we go to a 4-2-5. Don't forget the DL finally came around on the pass rush and jumped up to 40 sacks/season which is an enormous number for a BB Defense, higher than any Pats team since Ray Berry was Coach since '85.

Ivan said:

I would feel better with Keller in the fold but still view their overall depth as shaky, even with him, as he is coming off of serious injury as well.

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I think that is because you are looking at it as a two tight end offense still, and it will not be that moving forward.

-Gronkowski
-Keller
-Hoomanawanui

That would be very good depth in a one tight end offense. Also keep in mind Develin can lineup at TE.

My real thing here is with the depth in terms of an injury, the LB group is great but do we really want Will Smith or Beauharnais to be the starter? Injuries will happen