PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

2014 Draft Prospect Thread


(continued)

8. The vertical jump and the broad jump is very underrated for offensive linemen, and the bench press is a bit overrated. A common flaw of collegiate linemen, especially in run blocking, is a tendency to lean on their hands. A lineman who leans on his hands will have so much forward momentum that a simple swim move will result in a linemen just falling way past his target. Any NFL defensive lineman can beat a guy who leans on his hands. Run blocking most be done with your legs. You have to explode and keep them churning. There are two causes for a guy who has a problem with leaning on his hands; simply poor fundamentals or a lineman who is top heavy. Some guys lean on their hands because all of their strength is in the upper body, which is a major red flag. The vertical jump and broad jump can give you an idea if a lineman's tendency to lean on his hands is a result of an imbalanced build or just iffy fundamentals. It's a very good measure of lower body explosion and power for offensive linemen. Take Nate Solder for example. He only did 21 bench reps at the NFL combine, below average even when you account for his length. And he was a mediocre run blocker at the collegiate level, prone to leaning on his hands. But, at 319lbs, he had the 3rd highest vertical and broad jumps at the 2011 combine among offensive linemen, and his vertical remains the 8th best by an offensive lineman since 2011. Bill Belichick got him to stop playing high, and, now, he's an above average run blocking (and pass blocking, although that's a little more unrelated) NFL tackle despite the fact that he is no stronger than the guy who did 21 bench reps at the 2011 combine. Yet Matt Kalil, who has been a solid pass blocker but a very disappointing run blocker thus far in his career, had 30 bench reps at the 2012 combine, yet he had a terrible 27 inch vertical.

9. The center's main job is quarterback of the offensive line. He makes all the line calls. If someone is left unblocked, the center misread a blitz. When you are scouting centers, look for that closely.

10. I'm all about hand usage for defensive linemen, as it gives them a chance to make penetration with their head up and see the ball much better. In addition to proper fundamentals and obviously long arms, it's important that a defensive lineman has very quick hands that act like knives and not sledgehammers. This makes Ra'Shede Hagemann overrated; many taller linemen tend to have slow moving arms, and have less potential with hand usage than the mere length of their arms suggest; long arms doesn't necessarily mean good hand usage in the same way that players with longer arms don't translate to steals in basketball. Tall, long armed players just aren't as quick. Shorter players tend to be quicker. The ideal combination, really the best indicator of a guy with the potential to be great with his hands, is not long arms, but long arms relative to height. If you are 6'3 and have the arm length of a guy who is 6'6, you have all the quickness of a guy who is 6'3 but still the length advantage necessary for effective hand usage, and the lack of height gives you better leverage (the low man wins in football). Aldon Smith is a solid example of a guy who is disproportionate, 6'4 with 35 3/8 inch arms. For the sake of context, the distance between my shoulders is 13 inches, and I'm 5'6. Let's assume the same distance for Aldon Smith. That gives a wingspan over 7'0. And his hand usage is incredible.

11. The most common type of sleeper is an athletic, instinctive 4-3 weakside linebacker that falls due to a lack of height. Their skills are often perfectly suited to 3-4 inside weakside linebacker, like NaVorro Bowman, Daryl Washington, Lawrence Timmons, and Jerrell Freeman. Bobby Wagner and Lavonte David also fit the mold, but they also could play in a 4-3.

12. Pattern read coverage is something worth knowing about.

13. Let's assume that if a corner under 5'11 is gaining first or second round consideration, he is athletic enough to stay with anyone. The easiest way to tell if he can have success in man coverage in the NFL if he can breakup hitch route or a slant route. It's theoretically impossible, because no matter how close the corner is to the receiver, the ball is in between the receiver and the quarterback, and the corner has shorter arms than the receiver, and the receiver is closer to the ball than the cornerback. There is no possible way for the corner to touch the ball. But the Ronde Barbers, Alterraun Verners, and Jason Verretts of the world break up this pass by slashing the wrists of the receiver with impeccable timing (which can't be taught), not so early that a pass interference is called, not so late that the receiver makes the catch, trying to tear apart the hands of the receiver who is trying to make the catch, and, as you wrap your arms around the receiver's torso, refuse to let him get away, so that in the event you just can't break up this pass, you still prevent any yards after the catch. The undersized corner that can do all of this is nearly impossible to find, but they always make the pro bowl.

14. In terms of thoughts on scheme, I've always been a defensive guy first. My ideal defensive scheme: the ultimate hybrid defense. When there are less than three receivers on the field, a 4-3 defense. A classic 4-3 pass rusher as the weakside defensive end. A guy like Muhammad Wilkerson or Red Bryant playing strongside defensive end, big for a defensive end and could play 4-3 tackle in a pinch, also should be able to two gap when necessary. A 0 technique who basically acts like a nose tackle, a two gap type guy over the center, think Daniel McCullers. Having a guy who can two gap is invaluable in my mind. A weakside 3 technique, undersized and quick as possible, good pass rusher, Warren Sapp, Geno Atkins, Dominique Easley, etc. A strongside linebacker with incredible versatility. Can cover ground like nobodies business and really great pass rusher, tall enough for tight ends. Von Miller, Clay Matthews, Tamba Hali, Jamie Collins in two years, Bruce Irvin if you're desperate. A typical 4-3 middle linebacker, although must be 6'2 or taller, and a typical 4-3 weakside linebacker. When moving to the nickel, sub out either the nose or the strongside end, whichever one is more tired at the moment, and have the other one play the nose. Maybe sub out both if they are both tired (more common than you think) and you are nearly sure it will be a pass, bring in a backup, but play him at the strongside one technique, not a 0 technique. Move the strongside linebacker to strongside end. In short, it behaves like a 3-4 in the nickel; sub out a defensive lineman to conserve stamina and move a linebacker to defensive end, except the 3-4 moves both linebackers to defensive end in order to create a 4-2-5. And you have some two gapping going on against the run to keep numbers in your favor. And it lends itself to conserving stamina, because it behaves like a 3-4 in nickel packages, subbing out a defensive lineman and moving a linebacker to defensive end. In short, it is cross between my two favorite defenses; the hybrid 4-3 that has some two gapping of you guys and the Seahawks, combined with the substitution patterns of the Broncos, who sub out a defensive lineman and put Von Miller's hand in the dirt in a 4-3.

15. If I ever become an NFL GM, I'm going to sign a 7 footer and use him for one purpose: blocking field goals. Remember, he won't get just 7 inches higher than, say, a guy who is 6'5. His arms will also be longer. The height plus the arm length is a difference in standing reach of at least 10 inches, maybe more.
 
You are too kind, Manx. I was by no means the first to jump on the Easley bandwagon, but when I did, I went whole hog.
 
You sure did. I think I might have been the first with a positive post about Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and Jimmy Garropolo too but aside from Hightower I never pushed for any of them so it would be ridiculous to try and take any credit. Have to say, Patsinthesnow's advocacy for Garropolo last year trumps almost anything any of us have done. That was inspired. And whilst it may seem a little churlish to talk about credit, I think it's fair to say that a feather in the cap is no bad thing.

By the way, I deleted the post only because I couldn't edit it to the way I wanted and it didn't look right, not because I withdrew the comment.
 
Manx, what did you see in Hightower that showed potential in a defense transitioning to more speed, because I still don't see the fit here. I'd have used the 2 trade-ups on OG David DeCastro & Chandler Jones, Chandler Jones & OG Kevin Zeitler, or Chandler Jones & SS Harrison Smith.
(Lavonte David in the 2nd round instead of the Error Repeater goes without saying.)
 
Manx, what did you see in Hightower that showed potential in a defense transitioning to more speed, because I still don't see the fit here. I'd have used the 2 trade-ups on OG David DeCastro & Chandler Jones, Chandler Jones & OG Kevin Zeitler, or Chandler Jones & SS Harrison Smith.
(Lavonte David in the 2nd round instead of the Error Repeater goes without saying.)

What I liked about Hightower was his rare combination of size and speed - he has defensive End size but playing at MLB but at the same time is faster than Khalil Mack or Anthony Barr. I liked his leadership, his range for a guy his size and his ability to hit hard. He doesn't have the flexibility to be a great coverage linebacker but is good slotting into a zone and to be honest, I still think teams need strength and power for those moments where you need to dominate physically. The Jets, for example, will be running the ball a lot this year. Now I loved Alec Ogletree and Ryan Shazier but if I want a linebacker taking on a run blocking guard, I would rather it be Hightower.

As for your suggested scenario, I loved David as much as anyone but I wonder whether Bobby Wagner might have been the better Pats fit - he's a bit like Jamie Collins. Not sure about Heitler or DeCastro as first round guards in place of a Hightower pick. I think I might have gone for Doug Martin (who I loved) or, in hindsight, Alshon Jeffrey with that second pick and then gone for Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David (I'd have used that damn Bequette pick to trade up for Wagner) and then I'd have 100% picked up Marvin Jones. That still hurts.

Edit: Good question though.
 
What I liked about Hightower was his rare combination of size and speed - he has defensive End size but playing at MLB but at the same time is faster than Khalil Mack or Anthony Barr. I liked his leadership, his range for a guy his size and his ability to hit hard. He doesn't have the flexibility to be a great coverage linebacker but is good slotting into a zone and to be honest, I still think teams need strength and power for those moments where you need to dominate physically. The Jets, for example, will be running the ball a lot this year. Now I loved Alec Ogletree and Ryan Shazier but if I want a linebacker taking on a run blocking guard, I would rather it be Hightower.

As for your suggested scenario, I loved David as much as anyone but I wonder whether Bobby Wagner might have been the better Pats fit - he's a bit like Jamie Collins. Not sure about Heitler or DeCastro as first round guards in place of a Hightower pick. I think I might have gone for Doug Martin (who I loved) or, in hindsight, Alshon Jeffrey with that second pick and then gone for Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David (I'd have used that damn Bequette pick to trade up for Wagner) and then I'd have 100% picked up Marvin Jones. That still hurts.

Edit: Good question though.

Lavonte David was of course my uber-binky in 2012 - I called him the best defensive player in that draft class on this board, and people thought I was joking:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-the-heck-is-lavonte-david-reiss-mock.913184/

David is a football "genius" IMO in terms of his vision, instincts and processing speed - he has "Jedi skills" that transcend his physical limitations. Saying he is undersized is like saying Yoda is too short to be a Jedi Master. David had a better season last year than Luke Kuechly IMO. Jones, Harrison Smith and David would have been a dream defensive combo. Doug Martin was my offensive binky in 2012, and I had Martin and David as my top 2 picks in my mocks (Alfonzo Dennard was also in a number of them).

Bobby Wagner would have been a fine alternative to David. Great player. I loved Wagner, I just liked David even more. Grid and I had long discussions about him, but I had forgotten that Ivan was right on the money with David.

I never understood the Hightower pick. His speed is all linear. I prefer my LBs more mobile, and I still don't understand quite where Hightower fits. Of course, many people on this board wanted the even less mobile Courtney Upshaw.

I'm not a WR guy, and I certainly didn't see Alshon Jeffrey becoming what he was last year. I had nothing against him, but he wasn't one of "my guys".
 
Last edited:
Lavonte David was of course my uber-binky in 2012 - I called him the best defensive player in that draft class on this board, and people thought I was joking:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-the-heck-is-lavonte-david-reiss-mock.913184/

David is a football "genius" IMO in terms of his vision, instincts and processing speed - he has "Jedi skills" that transcend his physical limitations. Saying he is undersized is like saying Yoda is too short to be a Jedi Master. David had a better season last year than Luke Kuechly IMO. Jones, Harrison Smith and David would have been a dream defensive combo. Doug Martin was my offensive binky in 2012, and I had Martin and David as my top 2 picks in my mocks (Alfonzo Dennard was also in a number of them).

Bobby Wagner would have been a fine alternative to David. Great player. I loved Wagner, I just liked David even more. Grid and I had long discussions about him, but I had forgotten that Ivan was right on the money with David.

I never understood the Hightower pick. His speed is all linear. I prefer my LBs more mobile, and I still don't understand quite where Hightower fits. Of course, many people on this board wanted the even less mobile Courtney Upshaw.

I'm not a WR guy, and I certainly didn't see Alshon Jeffrey becoming what he was last year. I had nothing against him, but he wasn't one of "my guys".

He wasn't mine either hence the hindsight caveat.

In terms of where Hightower fits, he's a better Brandon Spikes and I disagree about his speed being "all linear". He was exceptional at getting to the sideline at Alabama. He'll never be a man to man pass defender but at 270lbs his speed is pretty elite - looking at previous combine data, based purely upon speed and size, he's in the Margus Hunt/Robert Quinn/Ziggy Ansah range. Now we don't know whether he has the explosivity to play at DE but I'd sure like BB to give it a go.
 
What I liked about Hightower was his rare combination of size and speed - he has defensive End size but playing at MLB but at the same time is faster than Khalil Mack or Anthony Barr. I liked his leadership, his range for a guy his size and his ability to hit hard. He doesn't have the flexibility to be a great coverage linebacker but is good slotting into a zone and to be honest, I still think teams need strength and power for those moments where you need to dominate physically. The Jets, for example, will be running the ball a lot this year. Now I loved Alec Ogletree and Ryan Shazier but if I want a linebacker taking on a run blocking guard, I would rather it be Hightower.

As for your suggested scenario, I loved David as much as anyone but I wonder whether Bobby Wagner might have been the better Pats fit - he's a bit like Jamie Collins. Not sure about Heitler or DeCastro as first round guards in place of a Hightower pick. I think I might have gone for Doug Martin (who I loved) or, in hindsight, Alshon Jeffrey with that second pick and then gone for Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David (I'd have used that damn Bequette pick to trade up for Wagner) and then I'd have 100% picked up Marvin Jones. That still hurts.

Edit: Good question though.

The only speed I've seen from Hightower is filling a gap from the LB position, a distance of < 10 yards,
if not < 5. He has no speed at all in coverage or even in stringing-out a running play. His effort to
tackle or push OOB when he does reach the RB outside the #s sometimes has been non-existent.
I believe that Hightower made a concerted effort to run a sub-4.75 40, and that once he achieved that goal, he then proceeded to eat his way back to DL size & speed. I doubt that he could now beat even Spikes in a 20- or 40-yard footrace.

And I am in complete 100% agreement about Marvin Jones. Most of us here thought that he would've been good value anytime after the 3rd round. Thanks a lot Bill; we get Ochostinko, Cincy gets Jones.
 
I also want to give a big Thanks to Mackenzie for his last 2 posts. As he was describing for what to look at some positions (WR, OL, DL), I could picture his thoughts in my mind, and they made a lot of sense.

Good Luck at the U of Chicago Mack, and if you do as well in your studies as you've done helping make
the Draft Forum the place to go especially during the off-season, then you should have little problem
achieving your academic goals.
 
Talking about former binkies, Jonathan Cooper has been beaten out for a starting guard job with Arizona by none other than former Pats 6th round pick Ted Larsen:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-jonathan-cooper-wont-start-hasnt-earned-it/

This just goes how uncertain the NFL is. Cooper WAS one of the best guard prospects ever, and I have full confidence that he will eventually live up to his billing. But after a horrible broken leg and a missed season, he's way behind, and probably not physically 100%. I'm not knocking Cooper, or the pick. Cooper was exceptional coming out of college, and worth a top 10 pick in a weak draft. But it just goes to show that there's no sure thing in the NFL, and lack of immediate success doesn't necessarily make a pick "bad".

Larsen, BTW, was one who got away from the Pats. He shouldn't have been cut. A solid back half of the roster player with good positional versatility.
 
I forget, was Larsen waived during final cut-downs or was he waived by himself at some other point?
 
I forget, was Larsen waived during final cut-downs or was he waived by himself at some other point?

Final cut downs. The Pats thought they could sneak him onto the PS, but got stung:

It's not often that the Patriots draft a player, work with him in training camp, cut him, and then watch him contribute significantly with a new team.

That's what happened with offensive lineman Ted Larsen.

A 2010 sixth-round draft choice out of N.C. State, Larsen was waived by the Patriots Sept. 4 when rosters had to be trimmed to 53 players. The hope was to have Larsen return on the practice squad, but the Buccaneers swooped in by claiming him on waivers.

The 6-foot-2, 305-pound Larsen went on to start 11 games at left guard for the surprising Buccaneers (10-6), and performed at a level that had general manager Mark Dominik raving.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4692791/will-pats-regret-letting-larsen-go

I'm certainly not crying over Larsen, BTW. He's nothing special, but he is a solid backup/fill in starter with good versatility who would have been worth keeping.
 
Last edited:
I think Larsen actually started in Tampa for half a season or so.
 


Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/23: News and Notes
MORSE: Final 7 Round Patriots Mock Draft, Matthew Slater News
Bruschi’s Proudest Moment: Former LB Speaks to MusketFire’s Marshall in Recent Interview
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/22: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-21, Kraft-Belichick, A.J. Brown Trade?
MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/19: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Back
Top