Jake Bequette, Chandler Jones, Rob Nincovich.

Bequette was a 5th-round talent who was over-drafted by 2 rounds, and who didn't lift at
either the combine or his pro day in order to mask his lack of functional strength, which has
now been confirmed at the pro level. So unless he's started an off-season juicing program,
he will almost certainly be a camp cut in favor of either a draft pick, a vet UFA, or both.

Deus Irae said:

You seem unclear on the difference between pointing out a problem and making an argument. I'm sorry about that. Perhaps a refresher language course would help you.

BTW, while finding the topic to be one that doesn't have much to it, I've at least added data and pointed out factual, thread-relevant mistakes in RayClay's post. You, on the other hand, jumped from Bequette to Buchanan in your very first post.

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I'm a med guy what can I say.

From what I see 'round here you rarely, ever, add anything of substance other than provocation. At any rate, wlecome to my ignore list.

RayClay said:

Thank you sir. Another bit of context is the cost of a pass rusher in this draft. Of course all draftees are potential all pros, until they're drafted and become busts but...

This seems a pretty weak class. Dee Ford is being talked up as a late first rounder. Not that I know a lot about him (he's quick on tape) but is that a reflection of his ability, or the strength of that position?

He's apparently put on 50 pounds since entering college and the NFL site has him as a 4-5 round selection.

Dee Ford Draft Profile - NFL.com

I do think players we have, or can get in FA are relevant when we have limited draft picks and other needs.

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Personally, I am not a fan of Dee Ford in the first or second round; he is undersized with short arms. If he on the board in the fourth round or later it would be a different story (which will never happen).

There are some intriguing edge rushers in the draft and I would be all for adding one to the Jones, Buchanan, and Bequette mix. I am a big fan of Kareem Martin I think he has Aldon Smith type talent.

Bobs My Uncle said:

I'm a med guy what can I say.

From what I see 'round here you rarely, ever, add anything of substance other than provocation. At any rate, wlecome to my ignore list.

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Yes, you made the provocative responses to my earlier posts (See "regurgitation that end up in silly and petty, chest thumping, arguments .... like this one. "), but I'm the one doing the provoking. :bricks:


And you continue not to offer any information about Jake Bequette.

Ignore away.

captain stone said:

Bequette was a 5th-round talent who was over-drafted by 2 rounds, and who didn't lift at
either the combine or his pro day in order to mask his lack of functional strength, which has
now been confirmed at the pro level. So unless he's started an off-season juicing program,
he will almost certainly be a camp cut in favor of either a draft pick, a vet UFA, or both.

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Bequette had some of the most impressive metrics at the combine of any DE in 2012. Belichick did reach to draft him he was a legit third round prospect, especially at #90.

Height: 6045
Weight: 274
40 Yard Dash: 4.75
20 Yard Dash: 2.70
10 Yard Dash: 1.66
225 Lb. Bench Reps:
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 09'05"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.07
3-Cone Drill: 6.90
No bench, shoulder

Third round picks are not sure things in the NFL; look at the other players drafted in that round in 2012.

IND-Dwayne Allen, TE, Clemson
STL-Trumaine Johnson, CB, Montana
MIN-Josh Robinson, CB, UCF
DEN-Ronnie Hillman, RB, San Diego State
HOU-DeVier Posey, WR, Ohio State
BUF-T.J. Graham, WR, North Carolina State
JAX-Bryan Anger, P, California
WAS-Josh LeRibeus, OG, Southern Methodist
MIA-Olivier Vernon, DE, Miami
SD-Brandon Taylor, SS, LSU
KC-Donald Stephenson, OT, Oklahoma
SEA-Russell Wilson, QB, Wisconsin
HOU-Brandon Brooks, OG, Miami (OH)
NYJ-Demario Davis, OLB, Arkansas State
MIA-Michael Egnew, TE, Missouri
CHI-Brandon Hardin, FS, Oregon State
ARI-Jamell Fleming, CB, Oklahoma
DAL-Tyrone Crawford, DE, Boise State
TEN-Mike Martin, DT, Michigan
CIN-Mohamed Sanu, WR, Rutgers
BAL-Bernard Pierce, RB, Temple
DET-Dwight Bentley, CB, Louisiana-Lafayette
PIT-Sean Spence, OLB, Miami
CLE-John Hughes, DT, Cincinnati
PHI-Nick Foles, QB, Arizona
NO-Akiem Hicks, DT, Regina
NE-Jake Bequette, DE, Arkansas
ATL-Lamar Holmes, OT, Southern Miss
IND-T.Y. Hilton, WR, Florida International
CIN-Brandon Thompson, DT, Clemson
NYG-Jayron Hosley, CB, Virginia Tech
OAK-Tony Bergstrom, OT, Utah

There are a handful of good players and then the rest are “who”.

When Can we trade Bequette for a bag of balls?

mgteich said:

BUCHANAN
Several us wanted us to draft Buchanan, especially as the draft went into the late rounds.

BEQUETTE
He's a 3rd rounder in this third year. Belichick almost always allows one of his 2nd-4th round picks a couple of years to develop. That being said, Bequette has to be a disappointment to Belichick. This is his last camp, unless he improves greatly.

Some would say that he played behind Jones and Ninkovich, and didn't get reps because they were so solid. In part this is true. However, Bequette should have provided them SOME rest here and there.

The reality is that Bequette is our rotational DE until someone else is brought in and beats him out for a roster spot. He could have a 3rd year in development, but that seems unlikely unless he can contribute.

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Could you please show where Belichick has given any inkling that Bequette has been a disappointment?

Yes, it stinks that Bequette hasn't done more than be a Scout squad player especially as a 3rd round pick. That being said, There have been more than a few occasions where a Scout squad player got a game ball for helping the team prep for what resulted in a big win.

Yes, this camp is make or break for Bequette. It won't take much improvement for him to get onto the 46 man roster. Whether or not that happens, only time will tell.

DaBruinz said:

Could you please show where Belichick has given any inkling that Bequette has been a disappointment?

Yes, it stinks that Bequette hasn't done more than be a Scout squad player especially as a 3rd round pick. That being said, There have been more than a few occasions where a Scout squad player got a game ball for helping the team prep for what resulted in a big win.

Yes, this camp is make or break for Bequette. It won't take much improvement for him to get onto the 46 man roster. Whether or not that happens, only time will tell.

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I think you make a solid point here, Belichick had options last season, he could have kept Benard, Francis, or Cunningham all of whom have shown the capability (modest) to be productive at the NFL level. He opted to keep Bequette, and personally, I have to believe there was a reason.

The misconception is that the 53-man roster consists of players that are going to contribute NOW. Many posters think that Belichick lives week-to-week or year-to-year but that is not true he is planning ahead and he retains players like Bequette, Beauharnais, Barker, and others knowing that they are going to take 1, 2, maybe even 3 years to develop but once they do it will pay divitends. The 53-man roster consists of short-term and long-term investments, Bequette appears to be a long-term investment, which is fine lets just hope he develops.

Bequette seemed to be a good pick at the time, but it seems like Buchannon has a better chance of contributing given that he actually has a sack in his career.

It could be that Belichick simply wanted to give Bequette a reasonable chance, so that's why he kept him in his 2nd year.

Simple as that...

The fact that Buchanon beat him out as a 7th round rookie doesn't seem to bode well with the theory that Bill kept him because he's improving, and that isn't even taking into account the fact that we also went out and brought back Andre Carter, who often looked slow and old (to me, anyway). I honestly think it may just have been in line with keeping players for more than their rookie year when they are relatively higher round picks, to see how/when they develop. Cutting a 3rd round player after one rookie year wouldn't make much sense unless there were other issues where he wasn't falling into line, was a locker room cancer, etc.

We will definitely know much more one way or another this summer, as that will tell the answer as to how much Belichick saw in him last year. Again...the fact that 2 other players (a 7th round rookie and an older vet who was brought in) beat him out for playing time at the position doesn't make sense to me if BB saw so much.

I don't think he wants to give him a chance, because he really doesn't care if you're drafted or a UDFA like Francis. I think he has a role in mind and thinks he is progressing towards that role. By progressing, my guess is putting on solid weight and becoming a De/rush tackle hybrid because he has that frame and the combine speed/agility measures.

Of course they draft people for a reason, but if they aren't progressing toward the intended role, I think he'd cut them in season 1. He's definitely a project of some kind, but that only means something if he's progressing in practice.

RayClay said:

I don't think he wants to give him a chance, because he really doesn't care if you're drafted or a UDFA like Francis. I think he has a role in mind and thinks he is progressing towards that role. By progressing, my guess is putting on solid weight and becoming a De/rush tackle hybrid because he has that frame and the combine speed/agility measures.

Of course they draft people for a reason, but if they aren't progressing toward the intended role, I think he'd cut them in season 1. He's definitely a project of some kind, but that only means something if he's progressing in practice.

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It's certainly a reasonable thought, but I don't recall too many players being cut in year one who have been top 3 draft picks, so in that sense I do believe that draft position is factored in a bit.

That's not to say that I don't agree with you about Belichick keeping players outperforming higher picks, but taking someone in the top 3 rounds and immediately cutting him hasn't happened too often.

As I said, you have an argument, so we'll have to keep an eye on this summer to see what happens. I just personally find it a bit of a stretch to think that Belichick was seeing so much in him, yet made the decision to play Buchanon and then also go out and have to bring in Carter as well. It's not like he hides players on the bench if they are progressing and showing signs of doing what they are asked.

Obviously, it will all come down to this training camp. It's definitely a make it or break it summer for Jake Bequette.

We can speculate on how good/bad he is, or has looked, but the truth is that none of us really know.

supafly said:

Obviously, it will all come down to this training camp. It's definitely a make it or break it summer for Jake Bequette.

We can speculate on how good/bad he is, or has looked, but the truth is that none of us really know.

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I agree, but then again, they drafted these players and investigated them, so if they cut them right away, there's a problem with their procedures. My point was, despite other young rushers looking better, they must project him to be better as he matures based on his measurables. If he had no future, or the wrong attitude he definitely would have been cut. Probably still will, but I don't think Belichick keeps players just because of where they were drafted.

RayClay said:

I agree, but then again, they drafted these players and investigated them, so if they cut them right away, there's a problem with their procedures. My point was, despite other young rushers looking better, they must project him to be better as he matures based on his measurables. If he had no future, or the wrong attitude he definitely would have been cut. Probably still will, but I don't think Belichick keeps players just because of where they were drafted.

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I agree. I think we've seen plenty of players who outperform higher drafted players, particularly when we see UDFAs do well here. For the most part, draft position makes no difference in terms of playing time, etc.

That said, I think that there is a slightly different and more patient approach after just one rookie season for guys who have been in the top 3 rounds, in terms of allowing them a season or so to develop. That's just my opinion though. That obviously doesn't mean that they'll see the field, just that I believe an added thought or two may occur prior to cutting them after only one rookie year, in order to allow them some time to develop.

Common sense would certainly say that isn't the "only" variable that goes into the process, as I'm sure there are many. Hopefully, Bequette can show that his position was warranted by stepping it up, making the team, and finally contributing in 2014. It could go a long way, as low as I think those odds may be.

RayClay said:

I agree, but then again, they drafted these players and investigated them, so if they cut them right away, there's a problem with their procedures. My point was, despite other young rushers looking better, they must project him to be better as he matures based on his measurables. If he had no future, or the wrong attitude he definitely would have been cut. Probably still will, but I don't think Belichick keeps players just because of where they were drafted.

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Go take a look at how often the BB Patriots cut 3rd rounders before the 3rd training camp.

Some comments on the comments:

1. This topic is all about the concept of "hope". For the instant gratification crowd this concept doesn't compute. Never has, never will, thus the posts in this thread have been wildly predictable.

2. If hope IS a concept that you understand and believe in, then there should be at least a ray of hope that Jake Bequette might play some role on this team this year, for the following reasons

a. He had the athleticism, college production and combine measurables that made him a worthy pick at the end of the 3rd round

b. There have been many cases of players who came out of nowhere to have good NFL careers despite a lack of production in their early years. Rob Ninkovich, of course, is the poster child of this school of thought

c. In BB we trust. If there is one thing we can all agree on is that BB is not a patient man, and NEVER afraid to admit when he's made a mistake. He's always had a quick trigger with players he's decided either couldn't play in the NFL or couldn't be coached up, whether its been a draft pick or a FA. He's never been a HC who will keep a player around that extra year or so, just to save face.

So, for those who understand the concept of "hope", inferring that if Bequette was truly hopeless, he would have been gone by now. That the fact that he's still on the roster going into the draft means something. Or at least could mean something.

3. There is no question that Bequette's complete lack of production and playing time is a big disappointment.
It's also completely fair for many to assume that he never will be a productive player for the Pats. I get that. What I don't get is the blind conviction that anyone who believes differently is an idiot.

patfanken said:

Some comments on the comments:

1. This topic is all about the concept of "hope". For the instant gratification crowd this concept doesn't compute. Never has, never will, thus the posts in this thread have been wildly predictable.


So, for those who understand the concept of "hope", inferring that if Bequette was truly hopeless, he would have been gone by now. That the fact that he's still on the roster going into the draft means something. Or at least could mean something.

3. There is no question that Bequette's complete lack of production and playing time is a big disappointment.
It's also completely fair for many to assume that he never will be a productive player for the Pats. I get that. What I don't get is the blind conviction that anyone who believes differently is an idiot.

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Ken, i am as far from the "instant gratification" crowd as it gets and even defended the Tavon Wilson pick despite hating it and wanting LaVonte David. I was more than willing to give Bequette all of last season to finally show something but when you get devastated on the DL and have off the street free agents playing significant roles and Bequette can't get a snap then imo it is time to move on. It doesn't make sense to cut him before this summer's cuts come but if he doesn't have the camp of his life then it is time to cut ties with him. I always have hope for their picks and always give them time, whether i agreed with them or not, but when a guy has as much opportunity as Bequette has had and can't get a whiff of the field then they need to move on.

I think it is important to keep in mind that referring to Bequette as a 3rd round pick is misleading, Bequette was the 90th pick in the draft, and only 5 players went in the round after him. The only notable player of those 5 was TY Hilton so that was the miss, we had just signed Lloyd, Hernandez, Gronkowski, and Welker was playing on the franchise tag, couple that with us have a poor defense in 2011 and it is not surprising that Belichick opted for the DE over the WR at #90.

Ivan said:

Ken, i am as far from the "instant gratification" crowd as it gets and even defended the Tavon Wilson pick despite hating it and wanting LaVonte David. I was more than willing to give Bequette all of last season to finally show something but when you get devastated on the DL and have off the street free agents playing significant roles and Bequette can't get a snap then imo it is time to move on. It doesn't make sense to cut him before this summer's cuts come but if he doesn't have the camp of his life then it is time to cut ties with him. I always have hope for their picks and always give them time, whether i agreed with them or not, but when a guy has as much opportunity as Bequette has had and can't get a whiff of the field then they need to move on.

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A couple of points

1. I don't consider you an instant gratification guy
2. You have every reason to be disappointed. Everyone should......but
3. There is no reason to give up on a kid at 275 who can run a 4.75 40 and a sub 7 three cone at the end of 2 non-productive seasons.
4. It wasn't just ANY street FA (as you imply), it was the guy who just 2 years before was arguably the team's best defensive player. (2011)
5. I think the point here is not that we should have high expectations from Bequette, or any expectations for that matter. The thing that gets me are those who summarily think he should be cut now and anyone who believes differently is an idiot.
6. For me I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised to see him part of a successful DE rotation, getting 20 snaps a game. It would certainly solve a major issue if BOTH Buchanon and Bequette became productive players. Which would allow the Pats to concentrate on other areas of need like DT, LB, TE and OL