The Myth of Wes Welker, Return Man

jczxohn1 · Mar 14, 2007

DaBruinz said:
Yep, just IGNORE the fact the special teams blocking in Miami STUNK last year.

Also, lets also put the punt return in perspective. Welker averaged 9.2 yards per punt return. Faulk averaged 10.6 yards per return. A whopping 1.4 yards per return difference. That's not a lot. Especially when you take into consideration how bad the Miami punt return blocking was. Miami had to take 29 fair catches on 70 punts or 41% of the time ( 6 more than any other team). By comparison, the Pats only had to make 14 fair catches on 50 punts or 28% of the time.

To underscore your point, in '04, a bad year for our ST's, Faulk averaged 5.7 y per PR.

Grover · Mar 15, 2007

If he can be a Brandon Stokely or Wayne Chrebet type of tough, sure-handed guy, then I think it's a good pickup. Time will tell, but that's the type of play that Welker reminded me of during the first Miami game last year.

zarakotas5 · Mar 15, 2007

I call shenanigans on this whole thread. Welker can return kicks and anyone who has seen him do it can attest to that fact.

Tommy the pinball wizard would have a hard time not tilting with mal-formed wedges, blockers falling down or improperly neglecting the first line of defenders, etc.

jczxohn1 · Mar 16, 2007

Flash Forward with me to SB XLIX

3 sec to go, Colts 42, Pats 41. Polian has gotten the Pats placekicker, Argentinian Jr. Gramattica, disqualified as an illegal alien with an expired "guest worker" permit with 5 min remaining in the 3rd qtr. Veteran Troy Brown clone, Wes Welker, comes off the bench to kick the winning field goal, insuring Tom Brady's 10th ring for his final season. "I just want to do whatever it takes to help the team win", says Welker.

:woohoo:

LiveShot · Mar 16, 2007

patsox23 said:
Before you jump all over me, let me say this: I like Wes Welker. He's a nice little player. He may very well develop into Troy Brown 2.0. He's got the BB/Pioli stamp of approval, and that counts for a lot. I wasn't a big fan of what we gave up to get him, but that's a point for another day/thread.

THIS THREAD is meant to explode a myth I've noticed is being constantly peddled around here - that Wes Welker is, in addition to being the ideal slot WR, a great "playmaker" and a top return man, both on KO's and punts. It simply isn't true.

Does he have versatility? Sure. CAN he do those things - catch the ball, return kicks, return punts? Looks like it, yes. But is he REALLY good in the return game, is that ANOTHER way in which he marks a sure-fire improvement on the Patriots? No.

Wes Welker averaged a pedestrian 22+ yards per KR last season. Lots of stuff goes into that, including and especially the other S/Ters paving the way (or not) for him as he goes (22 measly yards) up the field. Maybe on the Pats he would've averaged the 28 yards-per-return that Maroney did. But here's the thing: HE DIDN'T. Know what else he didn't do? Average 10.6 yards-per-punt return, like Kevin Faulk did. Wes averaged 9.2 yards per PR last season. Again, poor S/T blocking may have played a role in that.

Welker may end up being a FANTASTIC returner for the Pats. I just think, to keep it real, people need to relax a bit about this guy. He's an UDFA hustler - we love those types. And we should. And maybe Welker will be "all he can be," and we'll love him even more. But people are peddling this nonsense about how awesome he is before he's actually every really DONE that on the field.

You want to go off on Adalius Thomas and guarantee/assume his potential impact? Go for it. That's based on something. But Wes Welker has never been what people here seem to think he IS. Except for one day, in one game against the Pats last year. If he matches that from game to game, terrific, give my best to Hanolulu. I'd just like to suggest we temper our enthusiasm, just a bit, in exchange for a dose of reality, while keeping a mug of hopeful on the side, where it belongs.

Basically you're saying that BB and Pioli don't know what the hell their doing?:singing:

Krazy Koz · Mar 16, 2007

jczxohn1 said:
Flash Forward with me to SB XLIX

3 sec to go, Colts 42, Pats 41. Polian has gotten the Pats placekicker, Argentinian Jr. Gramattica, disqualified as an illegal alien with an expired "guest worker" permit with 5 min remaining in the 3rd qtr. Veteran Troy Brown clone, Wes Welker, comes off the bench to kick the winning field goal, insuring Tom Brady's 10th ring for his final season. "I just want to do whatever it takes to help the team win", says Welker.

:woohoo:

this would be amazing

patsox23 · Mar 16, 2007

LiveShot said:
Basically you're saying that BB and Pioli don't know what the hell their doing?:singing:

Um...no. I'm "basically" saying that I think people are going overboard by STATING that Welker IS something that he has not yet been. I hope he WILL BE what people think he already is and has been. I hope, and trust, that Belichick and Pioli "know what the Hell their {sic} doing" far more than I do, you do and every single HC/GM tandem in the universe does. So, no, that's not what I was saying, it's not what I typed and the capacity for people on this board to misrepresent and get their knickers in a twist over something like this, while failing to grasp the actual POINT, is, to say the least, disappointing.

Maybe consider reading the post you just QUOTED before typing this nonsense.

TTU&CowboyFan · Mar 20, 2007

patsox23 said:
Before you jump all over me, let me say this: I like Wes Welker. He's a nice little player. He may very well develop into Troy Brown 2.0. He's got the BB/Pioli stamp of approval, and that counts for a lot. I wasn't a big fan of what we gave up to get him, but that's a point for another day/thread.

THIS THREAD is meant to explode a myth I've noticed is being constantly peddled around here - that Wes Welker is, in addition to being the ideal slot WR, a great "playmaker" and a top return man, both on KO's and punts. It simply isn't true.

Does he have versatility? Sure. CAN he do those things - catch the ball, return kicks, return punts? Looks like it, yes. But is he REALLY good in the return game, is that ANOTHER way in which he marks a sure-fire improvement on the Patriots? No.

Wes Welker averaged a pedestrian 22+ yards per KR last season. Lots of stuff goes into that, including and especially the other S/Ters paving the way (or not) for him as he goes (22 measly yards) up the field. Maybe on the Pats he would've averaged the 28 yards-per-return that Maroney did. But here's the thing: HE DIDN'T. Know what else he didn't do? Average 10.6 yards-per-punt return, like Kevin Faulk did. Wes averaged 9.2 yards per PR last season. Again, poor S/T blocking may have played a role in that.

Welker may end up being a FANTASTIC returner for the Pats. I just think, to keep it real, people need to relax a bit about this guy. He's an UDFA hustler - we love those types. And we should. And maybe Welker will be "all he can be," and we'll love him even more. But people are peddling this nonsense about how awesome he is before he's actually every really DONE that on the field.

You want to go off on Adalius Thomas and guarantee/assume his potential impact? Go for it. That's based on something. But Wes Welker has never been what people here seem to think he IS. Except for one day, in one game against the Pats last year. If he matches that from game to game, terrific, give my best to Hanolulu. I'd just like to suggest we temper our enthusiasm, just a bit, in exchange for a dose of reality, while keeping a mug of hopeful on the side, where it belongs.

I've watched Welker play more football than probably anyone who visits this board.

He's a very good WR despite being somewhat undersized. He's a good possession receiver and could very well become one of Brady's favorite targets. He's not Jerry Rice but can make a team pay if they forget about him. He's a decent KR. He doesn't have the great 40 time of a Hester that you need to be a great KR. He's a good punt return man. He sees the field well, has good instincts, and is quick enough that if he's given a good lane by his blockers he can take it. All of which lends itself to being a good punt returner.

Let's not forget his blockers at Miami weren't that great. I recall that game where his blocker in front of him right by the goal line whiffed on a block in the last 5 yards vs yall and he ended up only getting it to the 3 yard line.

His stats don't show a heck of a lot of TDs while at Miami but I assure you he made more than a few of those kind of plays that put them in a position to score. Both returning and receiving wise.

Also he's done it on the field before. He's had guys doubt him at every level only to prove them wrong. He has a heck of a lot of versatility by the way. The reason his instincts are so good with the ball in the open field as a PR probably comes from him playing as a RB and WR in HS. Playing as a DB, KR, PR, and K... probably helped him understand a lot about the game as well.

But I get it you just think people are saying too many good things about Welker. Why not just let them be positive about him? Would it really be that horrible if they over estimated what he can do for your team a little bit?

dhamz said:
I've seen him play many times and that statement is just not true. There are a lot of return men with more straight ahead explosiveness than Welker.

I actually like Welker for the player he is. I think it is those who don't who feel the need to make him out to be in the class of Pacman Jones or Devin Hester as a returnman.

Welker's return abilities come from good field vision and instincts. He's not a speed demon like Hester. He's specialty is Punt Returns more so than Kick Returns because of that.

Remix 6 said:
top returnmen dont avg 22 ypr

playmakers score more than 1 TD receiving

ideal slot..i guess

Again he had the Dolphins blocking for him on returns. He had Joey Harrington throwing him the ball... He help move them up and down the field. Then their other WRs and RBs would rack up TDs in the red zone.

He's a good sure handed possession slot receiver. He can be very clutch.

RayClay said:
He holds the NCAA record for return yards and 8 punt returns for touchdowns.

Sounds like a possible game breaker to me. Texas Tech plays in the big 12 with Texas and Nebraska, among others.

8 punt return TDs!

I can't believe I'm the only one who knows this.

You're not the only one that knows.

lutontown_fc · Mar 20, 2007

jczxohn1 said:
Flash Forward with me to SB XLIX

3 sec to go, Colts 42, Pats 41. Polian has gotten the Pats placekicker, Argentinian Jr. Gramattica, disqualified as an illegal alien with an expired "guest worker" permit with 5 min remaining in the 3rd qtr. Veteran Troy Brown clone, Wes Welker, comes off the bench to kick the winning field goal, insuring Tom Brady's 10th ring for his final season. "I just want to do whatever it takes to help the team win", says Welker.

:woohoo:

So the future is two AFC teams in the SB?

Can't say im surprised

Box_O_Rocks · Mar 20, 2007

lutontown_fc said:
So the future is two AFC teams in the SB?

Can't say im surprised

Clearly you've not taken into account Polian's need to win the SB each year, he's probably been lobbying to move to the NFC since at least 2002 when the Jest handed him that body part that closely resembles his ugly ****.

Bostonian1962 · Mar 20, 2007

wdkantro2 said:
Stats can only take you so far. Have any of you doubters ever actually watched Welker play? He has more straight ahead explosiveness than probably any other return man in the league.
Faulk averaged 10+ per PR, but if you watched him, you would know that he had MANY zero yard returns and also a lot of 15+ yard returns. Welker can pretty much guarantee yardage on punt returns, as well as guaranteeing posession of the ball.

That is a great point! I know this post has been here for a while, and I didn't respond, but somebody bumped it and I'm in the mood to respond.

First, let me say that PatSox23 is great people, and I agree with him 94.6% of the time, so this is not a personal attack.

The thing is, we all know sometimes stats lie, and like many have said there are reasons for them. My point is, have you all seen this guy play? As I've said in other posts, he is just a "football player". I see the comparison to Troy Brown. The Patriots are a dynasty, that has won, and won alot with "football players". You know, the Tedi Bruschi's, the Mike Vrabels, the Rodney Harrison's, the Troy Browns. You can't always put your finger on why they are so good. They don't always put up the great stats. They don't always make Pro Bowls, but with the naked eye, you know they amongst the best. I watched maybe half the Dolphin games last year, and this guy is good. He just is. He's quick, he get's open, he has soft hands, he seems to have that special vision and body control. He handles the ball alot and doesn't fumble.

Heck, you want stats, how about playing receiver on a team with chaos at the QB position, and still hauling in 67 balls to lead the team?

In summary, I GET why people are excited about this guy, and it goes beyond simply stats. You just have to watch him play.

patsox23 · Mar 20, 2007

Bostonian1962 said:
That is a great point! I know this post has been here for a while, and I didn't respond, but somebody bumped it and I'm in the mood to respond.

First, let me say that PatSox23 is great people, and I agree with him 94.6% of the time, so this is not a personal attack.

The thing is, we all know sometimes stats lie, and like many have said there are reasons for them. My point is, have you all seen this guy play? As I've said in other posts, he is just a "football player". I see the comparison to Troy Brown. The Patriots are a dynasty, that has won, and won alot with "football players". You know, the Tedi Bruschi's, the Mike Vrabels, the Rodney Harrison's, the Troy Browns. You can't always put your finger on why they are so good. They don't always put up the great stats. They don't always make Pro Bowls, but with the naked eye, you know they amongst the best. I watched maybe half the Dolphin games last year, and this guy is good. He just is. He's quick, he get's open, he has soft hands, he seems to have that special vision and body control. He handles the ball alot and doesn't fumble.

Heck, you want stats, how about playing receiver on a team with chaos at the QB position, and still hauling in 67 balls to lead the team?

In summary, I GET why people are excited about this guy, and it goes beyond simply stats. You just have to watch him play.

Thanks for a fair-minded and compelling response - I welcome criticism couched in respect and level-headedness. I can certainly see your point that Welker is more than just his stats. I think maybe I'm just being a bit more skeptical, all the while hoping you and everyone else who "believe" more readily than I do at the moment, that he IS what you foresee.

TTU&CowboyFan · Mar 20, 2007

Here's his college highlight video... I know it's not vs NFL talent but it gives you an idea of how he plays the game.

Watch the Punt Returns. You'll see what I mean about how he sees the field and his instincts (the way he just makes the Aggies look stupid). Note the burst he has when he needs it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or9nXE-T1KM

RayClay · Mar 20, 2007

TTU&CowboyFan said:
Here's his college highlight video... I know it's not vs NFL talent but it gives you an idea of how he plays the game.

Watch the Punt Returns. You'll see what I mean about how he sees the field and his instincts (the way he just makes the Aggies look stupid). Note the burst he has when he needs it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or9nXE-T1KM

Makes people miss, great balance and he's physical.

I have no problem with the Troy Brown comparisons.

And last time I checked, the Big 12 sent a few players to the NFL each year.

VJCPatriot · Jan 12, 2008

Bump. Are we aboard on drinking the Wes Welker Koolaid yet?
After 1,100 yards and 112 receptions, yeah it sure looks like BB knew EXACTLY what he was doing, doesn't it?

Meet the Patriots wide receiver corps in 2007, it's not your father's Pats wide receivers corps. :singing: (So long Caldwell, and Gaffney is now properly a #4)

FrontSeven · Jan 13, 2008

patsox23 said:
He's a nice little player.

That's the way you describe a guy that moves the chains for the best offense in the history of the game?

That's the way you refer to the guy that led the league in receptions?

You're a nice little poster.

The Myth of Wes Welker, Return Man

jczxohn1

PatsFans.com Supporter

Grover

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zarakotas5

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

jczxohn1

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LiveShot

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Krazy Koz

On the Game Day Roster

patsox23

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

TTU&CowboyFan

Rookie

lutontown_fc

On the Game Day Roster

Box_O_Rocks

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Bostonian1962

In the Starting Line-Up

patsox23

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

TTU&CowboyFan

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RayClay

Hall of Fame Poster

VJCPatriot

Pro Bowl Player

FrontSeven

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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