Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

Fixit · Feb 15, 2014

KontradictioN said:
What's ironic is that you're trying to call out "internet tough guys"... wait for it... over the internet.

:bricks:

1. Never being on a team with a winning record should not fall entirely at the feet of Incognito. Using that logic, that's pretty much like saying that Fred Jackson has never been on a team with a winning record, so he's a loser. Never mind the fact that a lot of guys on this forum have wanted Jackson on this team for years.

2. I'm not using the fact that the players didn't defend Martin as a means of excusing the behavior. What I'm showing is that this ball busting may not have been as mean spirited as you think. I have a core group of friends that tosses around those kind of insults like candy (as I do with them), but it's not meant in a hurtful way. I have other friends where we're not on that level with one another just yet. I have black friends that I'm comfortable with using their race as a way to bust their balls while they use my Irish heritage as a way to bust mine. I have other black friends where I wouldn't even think of doing that. It's all about the company you keep at that time. Instead of letting Incognito know that he wasn't cool with it or breaking his face, Martin joined in under the guise of trying to fit in. As for the Dolphins' OL, they seem to be a tight knit group and this behavior seemed to be accepted in that locker room except for a couple of guys that are mentioned in the report.

3. Bountygate is irrelevant here. As for Martin, if you truly believe that this is wrong, then you should lay some blame at his feet as well. If he truly believed and knew that this was "wrong", and he did it just to fit in, then that is despicable. So what is it? It can only be one way or another. You can condemn Incognito for being a bully and a psychopath while, at the same time, excusing Martin because he was "just trying to fit in".

I LOL'ed at this. You had a solid thing going until this post. Have you ever met servicemen? How many of them do you know? They bust balls with one another MUCH worse than this. As a matter of fact, most of them that I have met make this look tame. DI's and gunnies do the same thing and used to do it much, much worse before "bullying" became the issue du jour.

I'm glad you lol'ed. Now feel free to argue that the military doesn't have official policies in place against discrimination and harassment.

Also, I served for eight years, so there's that.

The problem here is that no amount of evidence will make you take Incognito off of his "alpha-male" pedestal, and you won't diverge from your stance that systematically tormenting multiple people us just "ball-busting." The naked admiration you have for a guy who's done all that he has (that we know of) is disgusting.

Like I said, I hope you're never the person in a position to help someone weaker, because they're well and truly ****ed. Ignored.

Fixit · Feb 15, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Exactly. My father is a Marine, my uncle was a Marine, I have two cousins that are Marines, and I've worked, known, and am still friends with several of them. They all bust balls. They all put down using race and sexual innuendo on a consistent basis. Where the OP of that post was going, I have no idea. It's pretty clear that he's just reading press statements and taking them as fact with little to no real world experience with servicemen. Military servicemen, especially Marines, are some of the harshest people I've ever been around when it comes to busting their friends' balls. At the same time, if that friend was in a fight or needed help, those same servicemen would absolutely be the first one to help.

You mean like when a guy admits he's suicidal?

Kontradiction · Feb 15, 2014

Fixit said:
I'm glad you lol'ed. Now feel free to argue that the military doesn't have official policies in place against discrimination and harassment.

Every workplace in America has official policies in place against discrimination and harassment. The NFL is no different. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, even in the corporate world. Whether it's meant in a harsh, spirit breaking kind of way or meant as a team building, ball busting exercise by a group of 53 alpha males who are constantly around one another is a completely different thing.

Also, I served for eight years, so there's that.

Nice. You should know exactly what I'm talking about then.

The problem here is that no amount of evidence will make you take Incognito off of his "alpha-male" pedestal, and you won't diverge from your stance that systematically tormenting multiple people us just "ball-busting." The naked admiration you have for a guy who's done all that he has (that we know of) is disgusting.

I don't have any admiration for Incognito. He reminds me of some of the douchebags I used to play with. The difference between myself and Martin is that, when I was younger and getting picked on by the older kids, I told them off and then threw fists with them in practice if I had a serious problem with them. If it was clear that it was all good natured then I gave it right back. Martin had the option to "stand up to the bully". He didn't. Instead, he participated in the behavior then he created a media ****storm about it when his feelings got too hurt.

Like I said, I hope you're never the person in a position to help someone weaker, because they're well and truly ****ed. Ignored.

Nice personal attack. That's usually when you know that your argument is going nowhere. True story: a year ago, coming out of a bar, me and my buddy (one of the guys that I bust balls with) were walking up the street to find a cab. We hear some screaming by a girl and look over to see her boyfriend hit her in the face with a closed fist and knock her to the ground. Me and him sprinted over there, pulled him back off of her and tried to separate the two of them. As I was asking the girl if she was alright, the guy sucker punched me in the face (which ended up giving me a shiner). After fists were thrown back and forth and we wrestled around, one of his buddies tried to jump in on it. My friend (a guy that has teased me endlessly about how my mom is a "***** that *****s on Tuesdays" and has called me an Irish Potato) cleaned him out. In the end, the fight was over, the kid learned his lesson, the girl that he hit was screaming and crying (and actually tried to hit me after it was over) and the cops came and arrested him.

That was the last time I saw someone in public that needed help. And go ahead and ignore me if this is the weak **** that you're going to try to dole out.

Kontradiction · Feb 15, 2014

Fixit said:
You mean like when a guy admits he's suicidal?

I thought you were ignoring me? What happened to that? A couple of things...

1. If Martin is truly suicidal, then what does that tell you about his state of mind? Incognito's attorney would then have a very valid point in his response to this report.

2. If he wasn't suicidal, he was saying that to try to make it stop. Again, he had other, more effective methods to go about it.

One way or another, teams would stray away from bringing in Martin and that's not even counting his soft play since he's been in the NFL.

Deus Irae · Feb 15, 2014

The substance of the Martin/Incognito relationship is the same that it was before the report came out. The tweets, photos and admissions had laid it out already. Nothing has changed with regards to Martin/Incognito.

primetime · Feb 15, 2014

Demosthenes said:
Like I said, I have a friend who is Korean.

oh ************

Joker · Feb 15, 2014

primetime said:
oh ************

primetime · Feb 15, 2014

I'm not racist/homophobic/misogynistic/whatever, I have a _______ friend!

It's the oldest trope in the book. And if you're using it you're almost certainly trying to justify the fact that you're hateful.

dizi24 · Feb 15, 2014

KontradictioN said:
I thought you were ignoring me? What happened to that? A couple of things...

1. If Martin is truly suicidal, then what does that tell you about his state of mind? Incognito's attorney would then have a very valid point in his response to this report.

2. If he wasn't suicidal, he was saying that to try to make it stop. Again, he had other, more effective methods to go about it.

One way or another, teams would stray away from bringing in Martin and that's not even counting his soft play since he's been in the NFL.

Why do you keep putting everything back on Martin? You keep saying Martin never said to stop. So what? All the evidence shows Incognito knew EXACTLY what he was doing. The raise to the other O-Line members in the fine book, the texts to Pouncey trying to cover it up, it all shows he knew it was wrong. It's like saying the girl never said "stop," even when the guy knew it wasn't welcomed. It's one thing if Incognito was just a victim of not being able to read Martin, but he KNEW what he was doing to Martin.

And on the suicide, again he knew Martin was suicidal.

Quit the victim blaming.

Deus Irae · Feb 15, 2014

primetime said:
I'm not racist/homophobic/misogynistic/whatever, I have a _______ friend!

It's the oldest trope in the book. And if you're using it you're almost certainly trying to justify the fact that you're hateful.

This is one of the more ridiculous posts in history. If the poster had said something like "I don't have any black friends", you'd have used that as your gotcha, so your position theoretically allows you to claim the high ground no matter what the opponent says. Congrats!

BTW, I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black. I don't hate homosexuals. My two best friends in college were homosexual. Pointing such things out is nothing more than pointing it out. People shouldn't even have to point it out, but the racebaiters wield words like racist and homophobe as if they were weapons.

Kontradiction · Feb 15, 2014

dizi24 said:
Why do you keep putting everything back on Martin? You keep saying Martin never said to stop. So what? All the evidence shows Incognito knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

The evidence doesn't show that at all. Again, and I still haven't gotten a feasible answer on this, if Incognito was doing that to try and deliberately hurt Martin, why did teammates stick up for Incognito and claim that both were really friends? And that includes black teammates as well.

The raise to the other O-Line members in the fine book, the texts to Pouncey trying to cover it up, it all shows he knew it was wrong. It's like saying the girl never said "stop," even when the guy knew it wasn't welcomed. It's one thing if Incognito was just a victim of not being able to read Martin, but he KNEW what he was doing to Martin.

Either that, or he knew how a kangaroo court would be taken in the media.

And on the suicide, again he knew Martin was suicidal.

I've already responded to this above. One way or another, Incognito's attorney is going to have a field day with that one in his report. He was either truly suicidal, or he was lying about it. One way or another, that doesn't really say glowing things about Martin's mental capacity.

dizi24 · Feb 15, 2014

KontradictioN said:
The evidence doesn't show that at all. Again, and I still haven't gotten a feasible answer on this, if Incognito was doing that to try and deliberately hurt Martin, why did teammates stick up for Incognito and claim that both were really friends? And that includes black teammates as well.

Either that, or he knew how a kangaroo court would be taken in the media.

I've already responded to this above. One way or another, Incognito's attorney is going to have a field day with that one in his report. He was either truly suicidal, or he was lying about it. One way or another, that doesn't really say glowing things about Martin's mental capacity.

If you don't think the evidence shows that at all, then you're just denying facts and logical inferences, which I can't help you with. If Incognito really thought he was just palling around with Martin, why does he give the other O-lineman a bonus THAT DAY for being the first not to break? If you don't think that shows awareness, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. If he thought Martin was just taking things in stride, a person leaving a team over a mental health breakdown wouldn't cause you to celebrate it. It would cause confusion.

Also, people who think they're innocent don't try to destroy evidence.

I don't know what to say. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Deus Irae · Feb 15, 2014

dizi24 said:
...Also, people who think they're innocent don't try to destroy evidence...

I'll leave the rest for Kontra, but this is just not true.

dizi24 · Feb 15, 2014

Deus Irae said:
I'll leave the rest for Kontra, but this is just not true.

In the context of premeditation or awareness (which is what I'm talking about), it's 100% true. For instance, in insanity defenses, someone covering up a crime shows definitively that a person knew his actions were wrong, and many judges won't even allow the defense if there is evidence destruction.

The fact that Incognito tried to destroy evidence shows he knew what he was doing was wrong

Deus Irae · Feb 15, 2014

dizi24 said:
In the context of premeditation or awareness (which is what I'm talking about), it's 100% true. For instance, in insanity defenses, someone covering up a crime shows definitively that a person knew his actions were wrong, and many judges won't even allow the defense if there is evidence destruction.

The fact that Incognito tried to destroy evidence shows he knew what he was doing was wrong

I'll repeat. Your claim is simply not true. Innocent people do sometimes destroy things which investigators might consider evidence. Innocent people sometimes confess to crimes they didn't commit, too.

People do a lot of things that others insist never happen.

Kontradiction · Feb 15, 2014

dizi24 said:
If you don't think the evidence shows that at all, then you're just denying facts and logical inferences, which I can't help you with.

What facts am I denying? That he ran a kangaroo court? That this type of thing generally seemed to be accepted behavior in the locker room? That Incognito's teammates stood up for him after he had be suspended to the media? That Jonathan Martin's mental health was fragile? That Jonathan Martin participated in this system before he snapped? What am I denying here?

If Incognito really thought he was just palling around with Martin, why does he give the other O-lineman a bonus THAT DAY for being the first not to break?

You are aware that the purpose of busting balls, even with your friends, is to get under their skin, right? And, again, if it was intended to be so harmful, why did their teammates take Incognito's side over Martin's (and this includes African Americans)? You still have not answered that question.

If you don't think that shows awareness, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. If he thought Martin was just taking things in stride, a person leaving a team over a mental health breakdown wouldn't cause you to celebrate it.

Please cite where it was reported that Incognito began celebrating when Martin left the team. What kind of champagne did he pop?

I don't know what to say. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Terrell Owens once used that same expression to accuse Jeff Garcia of being gay. As it turns out, Garcia is not gay. You're making the mistake of only reading this report and coming in here with your chest out while spewing every notion that you have pre-conceived prior to Incognito's attorney publishing his report. Meanwhile, nothing has changed over what we knew before.

dizi24 · Feb 15, 2014

Deus Irae said:
I'll repeat. Your claim is simply not true. Innocent people do sometimes destroy things which investigators might consider evidence. Innocent people sometimes confess to crimes they didn't commit, too.

People do a lot of things that others insist never happen.

Ok that's fair. It's an overstatement. But it's a pretty strong inference. Even though innocent people confess to crimes, the fact that someone confesses to something is pretty strong and overwhelming evidence. Similarly, someone going back and destroying evidence so soon afterwards shows awareness that what he was doing was wrong.

primetime · Feb 15, 2014

Deus Irae said:
This is one of the more ridiculous posts in history. If the poster had said something like "I don't have any black friends", you'd have used that as your gotcha, so your position theoretically allows you to claim the high ground no matter what the opponent says. Congrats!

BTW, I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black. I don't hate homosexuals. My two best friends in college were homosexual. Pointing such things out is nothing more than pointing it out. People shouldn't even have to point it out, but the racebaiters wield words like racist and homophobe as if they were weapons.

Actually, no, having no friends of any given race wouldn't mean that unless you were actively avoiding interacting with people of a given race, creed, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever. Often by circumstance the people in our circles look similar to one another.

Racism and homophobia are real issues to identify and overcome, not hand grenades to be thrown into an enemy camp. Pointing these things out and then using it as a way to justify hateful behavior is, in fact, more than just pointing it out.

Ring 6 · Feb 15, 2014

mayoclinic said:
You've got to be kidding. If you found out that one of your co-workers was having "suicidal" issues, regardless of what your intent was, "you wouldn't change the way you acted because of the suicidal admission" and you would engage in "ball busting" behavior with someone in that state. You'd denigrate them, issue crude and offensive statements against their family, all because it's "normal" and you didn't think it could have any impact in them? That's incredibly naive, and dangerously stupid.

Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald suggests that Joe Philbin treated this whole thing about as cavalierly as you would:

Armando Salguero: Wells report shows Jim Turner will be fall guy, but makes clear Miami Dolphins job is too big for Joe Philbin - Armando Salguero - MiamiHerald.com

Talk about naive.

No I wouldn't do this things because I wouldn't have been doing them to being with. If someone told me they contemplated suicide because of job performance and never told me they had any issue with the way I interacted them, I would not change the way I interacted with them. I that was a kidding ballbusting relationship, I wouldn't change that, I would help them with their job problems.
You seem to conclude that Incognito should have felt Martin had a problem with him when he acted like his friend and never said there was a problem.

The report has a much different conclusion on Philbin that the very opinionated sportswriter you cite.

Demosthenes · Feb 15, 2014

dizi24 said:
Ok that's fair. It's an overstatement. But it's a pretty strong inference. Even though innocent people confess to crimes, the fact that someone confesses to something is pretty strong and overwhelming evidence. Similarly, someone going back and destroying evidence so soon afterwards shows awareness that what he was doing was wrong.

Actually, you can look at the release of the phone message and the resulting crap storm that followed.

People make judgments without understanding the situation or understanding/being aware of the context.

Seriously, put yourself in Incognito's shoes for a sec. Presume for the sake of argument that he believes that he didn't do anything wrong, and that all the ball busting and what have you was just "normal" stuff between friends.

He sees how many view the text messages and the voice mail, and he correctly surmises that people won't "get" the fine book as well.

This isn't a clear cut case as it involves people's perceptions and how they view things.

Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

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