Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

KontradictioN said:

Explain to me a couple of things, then...

1. How were Incognito and Martin supposedly seen as friends around the locker room?

2. If Incognito was picking on Martin because he was silent, and it was all meant in a way to crush Martin's spirit and single him out, why was it reported that he got Martin's back during a fight with a defensive lineman in practice?

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Have you read the report? Both of these are covered. On point one, Martin was trying to fit in with Incognito to end the harassment, and there are even texts to his friends and family where Martin said (months before leaving the team) that he was struggling to adjust his attitude and demeanor to fit in in the locker room. Pretty common mental reaction to people being harassed/abused.

On point two, after Incognito stood up for him, he turned to Martin and said you're my *****. It was compared to prison mentality where people are others *****es, and no one gets to **** with that person besides you

AndyJohnson said:

But here we are talking about the type of humor that was prevalent and is likely prevalent in most locker rooms, because that is the nature of the group of people. How do you police humor? Everything is offensive to someone. To attempt to police out any interaction that would be potentially offense to anyone would be impossible.
This is a case of Monday Morning QBing, because it is being looked at in hindsight knowing now that Martin was offended. Had he voiced his discomfort, we would be having a different discussion.

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This was NOT common. Zolak has been pretty supportive of Incognito saying it's "part of the NFL locker room" until the report came out today. Today, he was talking about how this was outside the norm of NFL locker rooms after everything has come out. Bruschi was just on saying this was nothing like he has seen in te NFL and nothing Parcells or Belichick would have dealt with, and said he could never play with Incognito. A lot of Martins decision to leave was after talking with members of other teams who he was friends with, who called it atypical. Also, if Incognitos attitude is so common, why has it gotten him kicked off pretty much every team he's been on since he entered college?

I don't get where this, "IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE" comes from. There's a difference between a non-professional, politically incorrect, crass environment and an abusive environment. I don't expect a locker room to look like the board at Goldman Sachs, but no locker room should be abusive. A player left the team, the team fell apart in the last few weeks, this is a huge distraction, and players careers are over. How does this environment help anyone win a football game?

AndyJohnson said:

Well, we don't know what he did, so its pointless to discuss that.
But many are acting as if Incognito felt their relationship was the reason he was suicidal and just kept pouring it on. That was clearly not the case.

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But we do know what he did. The report details both that Martin informed Incognito about his suicidal thoughts and that the abuse did not stop up until Martin's departure from the team. You're right that Martin didn't tell Incognito that he was partly to blame for his emotional situation. And let's say Incognito wasn't responsible (though I don't believe it in the least). He still knew his "friend" was suicidal. And yet he still couldn't be bothered to stop adding to his Martin's emotional instability. That speaks to his character more than anything else.

BradyFTW! said:

You could make a pretty good case that there was a brief period, after the guys from the dynasty defense got old and retired, where Belichick maybe lost sight of the importance of that. That's why the 2009 Patriots happened. Since then, I'd say that he's made a pretty clear effort to steer the ship back in the right direction long before it approached anything close to Dolphins territory.

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I'd agree with this.

I think people are severely underestimating how seriously Belichick takes culture, and how seriously, in turn, his players do likewise. How many players have to talk about the way this organization is before people believe it's tangible, and it starts with Belichick.

You do your job and you do what's best for the team...it starts w BB and carries down throughout. And if you don't live that, then you will quickly find yourself on the street or another team (Moss, Afailus, Shawn Springs, whoever).

How does Philbin still have his job? No wonder no one wants to work in that **** organization.

dizi24 said:

Have you read the report? Both of these are covered. On point one, Martin was trying to fit in with Incognito to end the harassment, and there are even texts to his friends and family where Martin said (months before leaving the team) that he was struggling to adjust his attitude and demeanor to fit in in the locker room. Pretty common mental reaction to people being harassed/abused.

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Maybe. But I'm not sure. Martin had no problem getting into it with a teammate during practice. Stands to reason he wouldn't have an issue with it with other teammates if the bullying was really meant in a harsh and bad nature. But if that's what Martin was really doing (and if they really weren't friends), then he went about it the wrong way. That much cannot be denied.

On point two, after Incognito stood up for him, he turned to Martin and said you're my *****. It was compared to prison mentality where people are others *****es, and no one gets to **** with that person besides you

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Haven't read all 144 pages, but that sounds like more of a joke than Incognito being serious. Given what passed for ball busting in that locker room, this is more than likely the case. Fact stands that he still stood up for Martin and it was widely reported that Incognito was seen as the enforcer for the OL, often standing up for other guys when things would get heated either in practice or during a game.

One subtlety here -- the balance between "reckless disregard" and "deliberate desire to harm" is different for different kinds of bullying.

School bullying is generally about deliberate desire to harm.
Workplace bullying is generally about reckless disregard (one hopes!).
Etc.

What a fun thread. At different times I wanted to leap on one side of the argument...and then the other...and then back again. I guess I don't see there being a side. This Dolphins situation was just a perfect storm meeting of personalities.

Incognito (and apparently Pouncy) are immature douche bags. Their douche-baggery prevents them from recognizing when they cross the line. I suspect the NFL is littered with more than a few of these types. When there is not a strong locker room leadership, they step over that line easily.

Martin is an over-sensitive, mentally unstable, ****sy. He is not cut out for an NFL locker room. That may seem unfair...and maybe it is. But tough crap. Despite his athletic talent, he does not have the personal make up to cut it in a locker room. And no amount of PC teeth gnashing is going to change that unfortunate fact. "NFL Player" is not the only job title out there.

That's right, internet warriors. Jonathan Martin, who played in the trenches as an offensive linemen in one of the most physically demanding sports on Earth, is a huge *****. I bet you all could do what he did week in and week out for years. You know who else is a *****? Junior Seau. Couldn't take the pain that all us internet warriors would just shrug off in a second.

Nunchucks said:

Is it wussification of America to consider making immature jokes about ones mother, family, or shooting black people out of bounds behavior?

I mean seriously? How old are these people?

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If you say it openly in front of the guy you want to make upset and yell, "I need a gun for A'holes like you," then it was a friggin' joke.

Not a good joke. Let's not all call him a racist or whatever. Yeah, immature, like you said, but no one has called him on this stuff since Middle School.

And why were the other black guys OK with this?

All I know is that when your locker room needs an investigation and a full report that is spewed to the nation then you have a crappy locker room culture. The end.

Brock Samson said:

Yeah man, it's totally cool to joke about shooting black people and *****ing Martin's sister. Pretty much all you said is that it's cool to have a toxic locker room. Leadership is about picking up your teammates rather than dividing the locker room and playing alpha-male to cover up your own insecurity.

People's defense of incognito is like a litmus test for terrible people.

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Hey, Brock, I agree. Obviously you are black and this personally offends you.

Funny how the other black guys who were there shrugged this off.

Since I wonder why the "victim" never gave this crap back despite being in environments like this since High School I am obviously the Grand Dragon of the KKK.

KontradictioN said:

Or he could have done what most people do when they get tired of a bully: clocked Incognito in the face. Instead, Martin exchanged those same messages with him until he snapped. If Martin's play on the field didn't tell you that he's soft, this should.

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KontradictioN said:

Explain to me a couple of things, then...

1. How were Incognito and Martin supposedly seen as friends around the locker room?

2. If Incognito was picking on Martin because he was silent, and it was all meant in a way to crush Martin's spirit and single him out, why was it reported that he got Martin's back during a fight with a defensive lineman in practice?

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If Martin has some underlying depression or some kind of other mental issues, I don't think it's a stretch to think Martin might have done whatever he could to try and stop the ball busting, including of pretending to be his friend/acting as his friend. Sort of a Stockholm Syndrome. Given that Martin comes from a family that is more intellectual, it's possible he'd never been exposed to the behaviour in the Dolphins locker room and didn't know how to deal with it. I know some guys that would have clocked Incognito after a certain point, but I also know some guys that would try and get him to stop with words, and if that failed, they would try and escape the situation. For that reason, I wouldn't call Martin 'soft' as much as ill-equipped to handle the situation.

In regards to you second point, i think the offense versus defense thing overrides the individual thing. An attack on an individual in a group is often seen as an attack on the whole group.

AndyJohnson said:

Can you describe specifically what actions were way, way over the line in your opinion?

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I believe you were referring specifically to the Martin/Incognito interactions, but I think the way the trainer was treated is goes beyond over the line. At least with Martin and Incognito you have two men on more or less equal standing. Both about the same physical size, both starters on the O line, both making large amounts of money. Compare to the trainer, who is (I am assuming) no where near the size of the linemen, makes no where near the money the players do, and has no where near the importance to the team. His options are pretty limited when facing the abuse. What does he pick - his job or his dignity?

Lots of disagreements on the thread, but hopefully everyone can agree on the following:

1) Incognito is a the epitome of a bully and a d-bag.
2) Martin didn't have the mental toughness to handle the Dolphin's locker room
3) The Dolphins had a locker room that was more extreme than others, and perhaps dysfunctional.

primetime said:

That's right, internet warriors. Jonathan Martin, who played in the trenches as an offensive linemen in one of the most physically demanding sports on Earth, is a huge *****. I bet you all could do what he did week in and week out for years. You know who else is a *****? Junior Seau. Couldn't take the pain that all us internet warriors would just shrug off in a second.

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Who ever said Seau was a ****? I guess some people equate suicide with cowardice, but I think most everybody has accepted that Seau was mentally f'd up. Not sure I get the analogy here.

Martin is obviously not a ****--physically. As you said, anybody who plays OL in the NFL is certainly not.

Not standing up for yourself? The way he handled the whole situation with a couple loser teammates? Puddy cat. Doesn't make anyone an internet warrior to come to that conclusion.

Dingleberry said:

Martin is an over-sensitive, mentally unstable, ****sy. He is not cut out for an NFL locker room. That may seem unfair...and maybe it is. But tough crap. Despite his athletic talent, he does not have the personal make up to cut it in a locker room. And no amount of PC teeth gnashing is going to change that unfortunate fact. "NFL Player" is not the only job title out there.

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I think he was not cut out for that particular locker room. Based on others comments (current and former NFL players), this Dolphins locker room is not the norm. In a different environment, Martin may have been able to thrive. He probably won't get the chance no though, due to his "snitch/quitter" label.

BradyManny said:

I object to the "this happens in every NFL locker room" stuff. No, it happens in NFL locker rooms where teams aren't focused on winning games.

Do you think Bill Belichick lets players get away with douche-baggery and write it off as boys being boys? No. Hell no.

This reflects poorly on the Dolphins organization and their commitment to winning. It's about culture. The Pats have a strong, good culture; other organizations don't.

Even putting aside right & wrong, whether you think its being soft or not, getting rid of stupid stuff like this makes you more competitive. It's the opposite of team-building, and coaches have to control this stuff.

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Um, you've heard about Matt Light's practical jokes, right? When he stole the tires off of Matt Cassel's car and put three in his locker (not 4) was he bullying Matt Cassel? Was Bill Belichick stopping said bullying?

Oh, post 297. Time to leave the thread.

WhoaDirty said:

1) Incognito is a the epitome of a bully and a d-bag.
2) Martin didn't have the mental toughness to handle the Dolphin's locker room
3) The Dolphins had a locker room that was more extreme than others, and perhaps dysfunctional.

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He seemed genuinely concerned about Martin and his text's showed as much.

Incog may act like a dbag once in a while but I doubt that's who he is, there's a kind person beneath that brash act, like most people we are more than what's on the surface.

WhoaDirty said:

I think he was not cut out for that particular locker room. Based on others comments (current and former NFL players), this Dolphins locker room is not the norm. In a different environment, Martin may have been able to thrive. He probably won't get the chance no though, due to his "snitch/quitter" label.

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Agreed. That's why I said the Dolphins situation was a perfect storm of personalities.

Perhaps the two biggest douche bags in the NFL (Incognito and Pouncy) and perhaps the most mentally weak player in the NFL (Martin).

Michael Sam asking God "Please don't let the Dolphins draft me"