Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

upstater1 said:

Huh? I'm saying TJ Lang clearly is saying that NFL lockerrooms are not all like that because he believes it, not because the NFL put him up to it.

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It’s absolutely possible that the Packers locker room is different, I’d be shocked if there weren’t differences from team to team just as there are differences in corporate culture ranges from company to company, that doesn’t mean that it’s not common.

BradyFTW! said:

Since you apparently can't keep track of what you have and haven't claimed, I'll do you a favor and link it for you

Your claim:



Is clearly and unambiguously wrong. Legal precedent is pretty clear that, in a situation where a reasonable person would feel harassed, the right to a harassment-free workplace takes priority over the harasser's right to free speech.

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Try reading the two posts together. You should be able to figure out your error from there. Let me give you a hint: I never claimed that free speech protections invalidated claims of workplace harassment. You made that up. As a matter of fact, I mentioned the "reasonable person" standard in a later post, responding to Upstater, as I recall.

As for the "right" thing, for you to claim I got it wrong when we're talking actual text of the Constitution should have told you that you were way off on this stuff.

Now, instead of arguing against me on something you've gotten completely wrong, let it die already.

Patsrock said:

Only thing I am going to comment on. You don't know that and when a person who is suffering from untreated depression is not going to 100% open up and tell everything that is bothering them or hurting them.

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Let me be clear. Martin never said that he was suicidal because of his relationship with Incognito. He said because he was playing badly.

I don't think its fair to say that when someone says they had a suicidal thought because of their job performance that you must examine your entire relationship with them and judge whether they are not telling you the truth and even though they never said you were bothering them you might be.

The amazing thing to me is that it seems like Incognito was the leader of the offensive line followed and his second Pouncey. I can not imagine BB giving those two individuals that kind of leadership on the Pats. It is not like this is the first time Ingonito has had problems. I question whether Philbin can survive that lack in judgment.

In response to those claiming the harrasers didn't know what they were doing. The "fine book" the players kept that Incognito wanted destroyed (after he fined himself for driving Martin out) completely undermines any credibility of that argument IMO.

I disagree with those saying people just don't understand this behavior is part of locker room culture. The problem here, in my opinion, is that Philbin left someone in charge who had no clue about boundaries and limits. The problem with Philbin's poor decision is that the league will have no choice but to shut everything down. I agree those that say something is lost when everyone goes PC. But if a head coach is going to leave someone like Incongito in charge (with his history!) I don't think the league has much of a choice.

Deus Irae said:

Try reading the two posts together. You should be able to figure out your error from there. Let me give you a hint: I never claimed that free speech protections invalidated claims of workplace harassment. You made that up.

Now, instead of arguing against me on something you've gotten completely wrong, let it die already.

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You claimed that the law holds that the right to free speech is more important than the right to not be harassed in your workplace (or, as you called it, the 'right not to be offended'). You very clearly and unambiguously said this. And you are very clearly and unambiguously wrong.

AndyJohnson said:

Let me be clear. Martin never said that he was suicidal because of his relationship with Incognito. He said because he was playing badly.

I don't think its fair to say that when someone says they had a suicidal thought because of their job performance that you must examine your entire relationship with them and judge whether they are not telling you the truth and even though they never said you were bothering them you might be.

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Have you ever suffered from depression or suicidal thoughts? Do you know anyone who has?

I am saying that when someone says they having suicidal thoughts you damn well should examine every aspect of your friendship and help them in every way possible. You get them to open up 100% or get them help from someone who can.

Nunchucks said:

Rumor Mill | ProFootballTalk

Yeah, keep on defending the guy.

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I'm sorry, who exactly is defending him.

Patsrock said:

Have you ever suffered from depression or suicidal thoughts? Do you know anyone who has?

I am saying that when someone says they having suicidal thoughts you damn well should examine every aspect of your friendship and help them in every way possible. You get them to open up 100% or get them help from someone who can.

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I have not.
My point however, is how do you expect someone to change their behavior toward a person if the person doesn't say its an issue?

AndyJohnson said:

I have not.
My point however, is how do you expect someone to change their behavior toward a person if the person doesn't say its an issue?

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You have to get the person to truly open up to you. And yes you have to tippy toe around the person with your comments and jokes. Once a person says they are having suicidal thoughts you get that person help right away. Go to coaching staff,gm or even go get that person to the hospital right away yourself.

When a person is in that mind frame anything not encouraging can be a catalyst for self destruction.

I don't think sports do anywhere near a good enough job with mental health.

mayoclinic said:

Thanks for sharing. Courageous post.

I dealt with depression 20+ years ago when I was in medical school. Not as bad as yours, but not much fun. Hid it from everyone, managed to get through though it was a struggle. Never attempted suicide, but certainly thought about it a lot. Not a period of my life I want to re-experience.

I personally find all this talk of Martin being "thin skinned", "over sensitive" and a "head case" extremely offensive. He's quite tough in his own way, it's just different form the macho posturing that some seem to equate with toughness.

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My freshman year of college, one of my good friends from childhood/high school committed suicide. It turned out that she had been suffering from depression all along, and we didn't know about it. We all took it pretty hard and wondered if we could have done more to prevent it. In hindsight, sure, we totally could have, but I don't think anyone really blamed themselves. You can't realistically go through life walking on eggshells, assuming that every seemingly-okay person that you talk to may be suicidal and in need of help.

Two years later, her best friend, who was another friend of mine, also committed suicide. Still not sure why he did it: he saw the fallout that his best friend's suicide caused, and what it did to her family and friends. Ever since then, I've wondered why they didn't say anything to anyone, especially the second guy. He had been on the other side of the equation, and knew exactly how badly the friends wish, after the fact, that they had known so that they could have done something. If he's said anything at all, any one of us would have dropped whatever we were doing without a second thought and done just about anything to help him out.

Maybe that's why I have such a hard time accepting that, after being told that his alleged friend was contemplating suicide, Incognito continued being such a relentless **** to the guy that he drove him to seek refuge in a hospital. Not only that, but he had an ongoing bet over whether or not he could 'break' the guy (which he very clearly did).

If your friend admits to you that he/she is contemplating suicide, then you should consider yourself lucky. They're reaching out, and that means that you have a chance to actually help them. In my experience, suicidal people very frequently don't reach out, out of fear that they'll be labeled in all of the same ways that people are labeling Jonathan Martin on this thread (thin-skinned, weak, unmanly). And that's not speculation - that's what survivors of suicide attempts, including yet another one of my good friends, consistently report.

The bottom line is that Incognito is very, very lucky that Martin didn't kill himself, because he would justifiably be feeling like a pretty awful person if things had gone a little differently. The fact that he responded to his friend's admission that he was contemplating suicide in such an awful way--one of the worst ways possible--frankly, should be self-evidently appalling to just about everyone.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that Incognito should have read Martin's mind. What we're claiming is that, once he was made aware that Martin was contemplating suicide, regardless of the reason, he should have made damn sure that he was doing everything that he could to support to guy through a tough time in his life. In other words, he should have done the exact opposite of keeping a running bet over whether or not he could 'break' him.

This thread is gold. I guess now we know who not to bust balls with on the forums

For those that think BB has a total command on our locker room and this isn't occurring on some levels is really clueless. BB spends 99% of his time in the coaching office. He probably walks through the locker room on the way out and maybe short speeches to wrap up games and practices. Most coaches have no clue what happens in the lockers as guys get dressed, shower and bust balls before and after practice.

The locker room is captain territory. While I stated earlier this is normal from what I have seen in HS and 2 college programs. But as others stated to this degree and to someone who at some point let them know it bothered them is to far. The coach/trainer stuff is way out of bounds and I can safely say I never saw that.

But considering my sister went to the same college as me, and my buddies knew her, family was definitely not off limits. But it was all in good fun, we only did this cause we were close. Sure we had some rookie hazing but mainly if you stayed out of it, we kept you out of it. If you jumped in on the action in anyway you were fair game.

I think this is a case of going to far but none of it shocks me. There is one in every locker room who pushes the boundaries.

AndyJohnson said:

I have not.
My point however, is how do you expect someone to change their behavior toward a person if the person doesn't say its an issue?

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Or here's a thought, act like a frickin adult. Don't talk about running train on a guys sister and talking about how much she squirts and how hairy her vagina is, and then go, "But, but, he never told me to stop!" Or there's the fact that it was a running competition to try to make the rookies break. When Martin left, the other rookie got a "bonus in the fine book" for not being the first to break. Yeah, Icognito thought Martin was taking it in stride, and had NO idea.

Are you serious?

AndyJohnson said:

I have not.
My point however, is how do you expect someone to change their behavior toward a person if the person doesn't say its an issue?

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Blaming the victim is de facto defending the offender.

BradyFTW! said:

You claimed that the law holds that the right to free speech is more important than the right to not be harassed in your workplace (or, as you called it, the 'right not to be offended'). You very clearly and unambiguously said this. And you are very clearly and unambiguously wrong.

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Again, go read the damned post.

Deus Irae said:

No, that's not the whole point. Dear God, what has become of this country? First, there is a right to free speech, but not a right to not be offended. Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

You're demanding both a non-existent right and that people immediately develop mental telepathy.

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Pretty clearly not saying that free speech invalidates claims of workplace harassment. Harassment is never even mentioned in the post, nor is any sort of protection from it. A plain reading pretty clearly points to one being an actual right and not the other. And, again, this is textually shown in the Constitution.

And, AGAIN, you're the one claiming nobody cares about this but me, yet you're the one going on and on about it, and getting your responses wrong, time after time. I'm the one saying let it die.

BradyManny said:

Do you think Bill Belichick lets players get away with douche-baggery and write it off as boys being boys? No. Hell no.

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I hear BB lets his players get away with murder.

dizi24 said:

Or here's a thought, act like a frickin adult. Don't talk about running train on a guys sister and talking about how much she squirts and how hairy her vagina is, and then go, "But, but, he never told me to stop!" Or there's the fact that it was a running competition to try to make the rookies break. When Martin left, the other rookie got a "bonus in the fine book" for not being the first to break. Yeah, Icognito thought Martin was taking it in stride, and had NO idea.

Are you serious?

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I do see the argument that Martin should have said something about that. I mean, if someone said that about my sister, I'd tell them that that comment was their freebie, but if they made another one we would have a problem. Even if it was someone who could clearly kick my ass, there are some things that are worth getting your ass kicked over. It's a shame that Martin didn't do that.

That said, it's pretty ridiculous that some people are claiming that, because Martin didn't explicitly say that, he's to blame. He could have--and probably should have--handled the situation better, but he also shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.

I think we can all agree that

a.) Incognito is a jerk
b.) guys talk smack in men's locker rooms
c.) if you are easily offended, you will be offended by what is said by most guys when they are not within earshot of their mothers, wife(s) (Mormon joke), girlfriends, or any other woman they hope to bed, etc.
d.) Martin could have handled this better, he should have gone to one of the captains, or maybe just turned around and punched Incognito in the face.
e.) The Dolphins are a mess! and for the 14th year in a row, not finish the season with a better record than the Pats!


Look, I don't have a sister, but I'm pretty sure I can speak for everyone that does, that at not time would the comment "we are going to run a train on your sister" would be welcomed or apprecaited. That is over any line you wish to draw.

Gee I think we are all "shocked" to know that they guy who was Aaron "the butcher" Hernandez's BFF in college is also a jerk.

Overall, this is bad news for the Phins, Incognito I think is done in the NFL. Someone might give Martin a shot, but he doesn't seem to have the stones for the position. Everyone has different life experiences and that brings different levels of sensitivity to certain things. You can not assign the same expected level of sensitivity to everyone for everything.

Now in the immortal words of that drug dealing POS who deserved every inch of the beating he so richly deserved...

Can't we all get along?

Deus Irae said:

Nah, I'd rather have that behavior than the false veneer of so-called civilization worn by the hypocrites. Low brow humor is supposed to be just that. Americans used to be mature enough to grasp that.

What needs to change is that the sissyfication of the west needs to be reversed.

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Hey imagine that..

Deus (and other "aggressive posters") on the side of those who are at best being unnecessarily overbearing twats to those around them.

Funny how the people that are themselves so unnecessarily rude in their own posts are blaming Martin and the "PC crowd" for their reactions/persecution of them

Nunchucks said:

I guess we should expect players to never mature beyond a high school level.

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or many members of football fan sites who hide behind anonymity.

Nunchucks said:

Blaming the victim is de facto defending the offender.

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In fairness, if you punch someone in the face, you know you've done something wrong and there's a clear victim.

In a hypothetical scenario:
Person A acts within the confines of the "culture" of a particular place and Person B does not complain about said action despite considering him or herself a victim. Now you have a "victim" with no offender because Person A doesn't know something bad has happened.

That's not an "ignorance of the law" scenario because we're talking about culture and not law in this scenario.

It may not be right and maybe NFL locker rooms need to be subjected to more scrutiny with regard to workplace laws, but I don't know that you're defending the offender in this case. It's a weird deal. The guy might have done something wrong, but it might have been within the culture of that place. So did he? If nobody tells you that Person A has to be treated differently, you won't treat Person A differently.

It all screams of lack of leadership either way. The argument that nobody should be acting that way still holds up, but you also don't march into the south and tell people not to wear boots either. If that organization has a problem, it's up to the whole org to address it not just Incognito. (Whether he's an ass or not, which he probably is!)