With all the legacy talk: What would it take for Brady to overtake Montana?

Some might not agree with the premise but I think winning 3 SBs and losing 0 is superior to winning 3 and losing 2. It pains me to say it, it really does. Maybe you disagree.

Either way I'm curious what people think it would take for Brady to overtake Montana not just for yourself but for the average fan. There are people who will never agree that Brady is better than Montana or who discount all pre-spygate victories entirely and that's fine. It's hard to imagine a scenario where Brady wins enough to ever sway those people.

But for the average fan will 4 wins and 2 losses be considered superior to 3-0?

Is anything but another SB enough to propel Brady past Montana?

Brady just needs one more ring. That's it. One more ring and he's the greatest.

Winning 4 and losing 2 is better than winning 4. Why? IT's HARD TO GET TO THE SUPERBOWL. Not to mention, he was 2 plays away from winning 2 more.

Throw in the career stats, all time playoff wins, playoff record, etc etc....and Brady has him beat.

Wasn't Montana 4-0 in the SB... ?

Anyways, I doubt Brady will ever be ahead of Montana in the eyes of the public...and it doesn't bother me in the slightest...to be mentioned in the same breath is a huge compliment and when it's all said and done I could easily see Brady being a genuine #2 in the eyes of football fans.

fnordcircle said:

Some might not agree with the premise but I think winning 3 SBs and losing 0 is superior to winning 3 and losing 2. It pains me to say it, it really does. Maybe you disagree.

Either way I'm curious what people think it would take for Brady to overtake Montana not just for yourself but for the average fan. There are people who will never agree that Brady is better than Montana or who discount all pre-spygate victories entirely and that's fine. It's hard to imagine a scenario where Brady wins enough to ever sway those people.

But for the average fan will 4 wins and 2 losses be considered superior to 3-0?

Is anything but another SB enough to propel Brady past Montana?

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I think one more Super Bowl win should do it. That also would give him the most Super Bowls of any starting quarterback ever.

One-Be-Lo said:

Wasn't Montana 4-0 in the SB... ?

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Unless I'm insane and also unable to read anymore the 49ers have 4 championships one of which, the last one, was the joke of a game with Young as the QB and Montana had gone to KC by then. Joe was QB against the Dolphins, Bengals and Broncos.

fnordcircle said:

Unless I'm insane and also unable to read anymore the 49ers have 4 championships one of which, the last one, was the joke of a game with Young as the QB and Montana had gone to KC by then. Joe was QB against the Dolphins, Bengals and Broncos.

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9ers have 5 SBs, 4 by Joe, 1 by Young

Joe won in 81, 84, 88 and 89

Montana beat the Bengals twice. XVI and XXIII.

How can you not know this?

Montana is 4-0.

the following analysis was one I posted in the Manning legacy thread.

one more ring and Tom passes Joe.

Joe Montana's career would have been even greater if he had been 4-3 in Super Bowls rather than 4-0.

If he had been 4-3, it would have meant that 3 extra times he would have won rather than lost in conference championship games. It is better to advance further in the playoffs, is it not?

To argue otherwise is the same as arguing that Brady was better / more successful than Manning in the postseason this year, since he lost the AFCCG rather than winning it, giving him no opportunity to even play in the Super Bowl.

consider a Super Bowl win a gold medal
consider a Super Bowl appearance with a loss as a silver medal (it should NOT be regarded as the worst of all possible season outcomes!)
consider an conference championship appearance with a loss as a bronze medal
consider anything else to be just a participation ribbon!

For his 14 healthy seasons, Montana amassed:
4 golds, no silvers, 3 bronzes

For his 12 healthy seasons, Brady has amassed:
3 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes

Yes, IMO Montana's 4 golds, no silvers, & 3 bronzes beats Brady's 3 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes

Imagine a Brady win in either of the next two seasons though. You'd have both QBs playing 14 complete and healthy years, and then:

Brady's 4 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes clearly beats
Montana's 4 golds, no silvers, & 3 bronzes

Same deal if you imagined that the helmet catch never happened. Tom would have already surpassed Joe. But, alas, the helmet catch did happen.

Tom is closer to Joe IMO than Tom is close to Manning, who is several rungs below him.

fnordcircle said:

Some might not agree with the premise but I think winning 3 SBs and losing 0 is superior to winning 3 and losing 2. It pains me to say it, it really does. Maybe you disagree.

Either way I'm curious what people think it would take for Brady to overtake Montana not just for yourself but for the average fan. There are people who will never agree that Brady is better than Montana or who discount all pre-spygate victories entirely and that's fine. It's hard to imagine a scenario where Brady wins enough to ever sway those people.

But for the average fan will 4 wins and 2 losses be considered superior to 3-0?

Is anything but another SB enough to propel Brady past Montana?

Click to expand...

Montana was 4-0.

Please explain your logic though.

We take 2 QBs who have both won 4 SBs. Each have made the playoffs 12 times.

QB1s 12 finishes
3 one and done
3 Conf champ/divisional round losses
4 SB wins
2 SB losses

QB2
4 one and done
4 conf champ/div round losses
4 SB wins
0 SB losses

You are saying that it was a better job to lose in round 1, than to win in round 1, win the Conf champ and lose the SB
and also a better job to win Round 1, lose round 2 win round 1 with the con champ and lose the SB.

The extension of this argument is that Brady accomplished more this year than Manning.

Jim Kelly led his teams to the playoffs 8 times, winning 9 games, losing without getting to the SB 4 times, and making it to the SB 4 times, and losing them all.

Danny White led his team to the playoffs 8 times, winning 10 games, and losing before getting to the SB all 8 times.

is 0-0 better than 0-4?

Depends. If Brady wins one more and holds the play-off wins record then imo he is the GOAT. If Brady goes 1-1 then an argument is going to be made that Montana's unbeaten trumps that. However if he goes 2-0 and goes to 5, which is unlikely but possible then it is his.

If you win as many rings but 2 more Conference Championships then it is hard to see how that counts against you? However if Brady doesn't get #4 then the only people who will call him the GOAT will be Patriot fans.

fnordcircle said:

Unless I'm insane and also unable to read anymore the 49ers have 4 championships one of which, the last one, was the joke of a game with Young as the QB and Montana had gone to KC by then. Joe was QB against the Dolphins, Bengals and Broncos.

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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can't read.

2 more trophies would leave no doubt, but as NormZauchin pointed out in another thread, Montana threw 11 td's, 0 picks and a 127.8 rating in his 4 wins. Thems some pretty gaudy #'s on the games biggest stage.

Very few people outside of NE would consider it a possibility unless he were to finish with another 3 trophies in 4 years.

He is however certainly in the discussion ... And often the front runner for the #2 spot

Brady needs to equal Montana for rings. Hell, people were ready to ordain Manning with only 2 rings had the Broncos beaten Seattle.

Brady needs to win 2 more with a top offense to be placed ahead of Montana by fans outside NE. The knock on Brady is he won 3 championships due to a defense filled with great players -- and just an above average offense (maybe a really good one in 04 due to Dillon); and since 07 when he's been carrying the team he hasn't won it all.

At this point, I really don't care where Brady is ranked all-time; I'm just glad he's been our QB; and I really hope we can somehow finally have a top defense again cause that's what its going to take to win the championship.

OhExaulted1 said:

2 more trophies would leave no doubt, but as NormZauchin pointed out in another thread, Montana threw 11 td's, 0 picks and a 127.8 rating in his 4 wins. Thems some pretty gaudy #'s on the games biggest stage.

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Montana also had some crappy losses when he couldn't get his team to the conf championship and SB.


Currently Brady is 18-8 in the playoffs, Montana 16-7, Montana leads in SB wins 4-3, Brady leads in conference championships 5-4 Brady leads in Getting to the conference championship 8-7.

Brady also has a much better winning % in the regular season 77.4% to 71.3%, as well as more wins. Brady has 31 more reg season wins than Montana with 4 FEWER losses than Montana.

When Brady wins another SB next year (IMO ) He will clearly be well ahead of Montana. If Brady plays 4 more years he may reach 200 wins.

When Brady is done he will go down as the GOAT IMO.

Yeah in my opinion if Brady wins one more SB, he is the GOAT. record number of sb appearances and four wins. He will also have best winning percentage and td-int ratio of any starting qb ever

voluntarysaftey said:

Brady needs to win 2 more with a top offense to be placed ahead of Montana by fans outside NE. The knock on Brady is he won 3 championships due to a defense filled with great players -- and just an above average offense (maybe a really good one in 04 due to Dillon); and since 07 when he's been carrying the team he hasn't won it all.



At this point, I really don't care where Brady is ranked all-time; I'm just glad he's been our QB; and I really hope we can somehow finally have a top defense again cause that's what its going to take to win the championship.

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So, Tom never had the GOAT At WR and Montana had a really great defense also. Tom again has done more with less IMO. Imagine if Tom had rice for most of his career, we would have had more SB wins IMO.

When Tom gets #4 and possibly more, he will undoubtedly be the GOAT. Heck if he gets #4 next year that is 21 playoff wins, 6 SB appearances and a 72% win average in the playoffs.

I believe if TB wins one more ring he is the GOAT

One more. 4 rings + the sheer number of AFC championships he's played in (and won) is major. His next Superbowl would be his sixth. You can't look at a guy that's there that often, and getting the rings, as inferior to 4/0.

Even one more appearance and fans around the country are going to have to acknowledge "Dude, this guy is always in the freaking Superbowl."