How much does this SB loss damage Peyton Manning's legacy?

Froob · Feb 4, 2014

1960Pats said:
One of the exceptions to that was when a great offense + subpar defense from New Orleans beat a top offense + top defense from Indianapolis, even though the Indy defense performed well. Oh the irony.

Saints had a pretty good defense. They were hard hitting and created a lot of turnovers.

Ring 6 · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
Joe Montana's career would have been even greater if he had been 4-3 in Super Bowls rather than 4-0.

If he had been 4-3, it would have meant that 3 extra times he would have won rather than lost in conference championship games. It is better to advance further in the playoffs, is it not?

To argue otherwise is the same as arguing that Brady was better / more successful than Manning in the postseason this year, since he lost the AFCCG rather than winning it, giving him no opportunity to even play in the Super Bowl.

consider a Super Bowl win a gold medal
consider a Super Bowl appearance with a loss as a silver medal (it should NOT be regarded as the worst of all possible season outcomes!)
consider an conference championship appearance with a loss as a bronze medal
consider anything else to be just a participation ribbon!

For his 14 healthy seasons, Montana amassed:
4 golds, no silvers, 3 bronzes

For his 12 healthy seasons, Brady has amassed:
3 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes

Yes, IMO Montana's 4 golds, no silvers, & 3 bronzes beats Brady's 3 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes

Imagine a Brady win in either of the next two seasons though. You'd have both QBs playing 14 complete and healthy years, and then:

Brady's 4 golds, 2 silvers, 3 bronzes clearly beats
Montana's 4 golds, no silvers, & 3 bronzes

Same deal if you imagined that the helmet catch never happened. Tom would have already surpassed Joe. But, alas, the helmet catch did happen.

Tom is closer to Joe IMO than Tom is close to Manning, who is several rungs below him.

Its just very simple. 4-3 is better than 4-0 because there are 3 years where the 4-0 guy lost in an earlier round.
To argue it is better to go one and done than to win 2 games before losing the SB is just dumb.

patsinthesnow · Feb 4, 2014

Hey, I was just thinking about this, maybe Pherein could chime in.

How about instead of Brady vs. Manning, what about Manning vs. Brees?

Both of them have insane stats (they will both finish top 3 all time in passing yards & TDs), both will probably finish top 5 all time in qbr, and both have 1 ring.

(Both are also dome stat padders, but that's besides the point

)

Brees playoff record: 6-5, 1-0 in Superbowls
Manning playoff record: 11-2, 1-2 in Superbowls

If Brees wins 1 more ring, do you put him above Manning on all time lists?

ivanvamp · Feb 4, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Neiher Brady nor Manning finished the job this year. (Neither did Brees, Rodgers, etc).
No QB can finish the job every year. Brady has 3 times, Manning sort of did once, although it happened in a playoff season where he was actually a liability to his team.
The gap didn't widen, but it is still enormous.

Manning legacy only really took a hit with people who were already giving him credit for winning this SB. With everyone who has been paying attention, he did just what his career has led you to expect, just getting a little closer this time than the normal one and done.

I agree, but as you point out in a later post, it's better to get further in the playoffs than bow out earlier.

ivanvamp · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

AndyJohnson said:
Its just very simple. 4-3 is better than 4-0 because there are 3 years where the 4-0 guy lost in an earlier round.
To argue it is better to go one and done than to win 2 games before losing the SB is just dumb.

This is spot-on. We never will know what Montana would have done had he gone to three more Super Bowls, because, well, he did NOT go to three more Super Bowls. He *did* have some bad playoff games:

1/6/85 vs Chi: 18-34 (52.9%), 233 yds, 1 td, 2 int
1/4/87 vs NYG: 8-15 (53.3%), 98 yds, 0 td, 2 int
1/9/88 vs Min: 12-26 (46.2%), 109 yds, 0 td, 1 int
1/23/94 vs Buf: 9-23 (39.1%), 125 yds, 0 td, 1 int

So it's not like it's impossible to imagine him having a bad game in a Super Bowl. The more times you get there, the more likely it is you're going to lose eventually. Mariano Rivera is the greatest closer in baseball history, but he's blown a LOT of games. How? Because he's constantly in a position to save the biggest games of the year. Nobody is perfect, and losing and failing is all part of it.

Anybody who holds Brady's 2 SB losses against him compared to a guy like Aikman, for example, who never lost (and they have the same # of SB wins) is crazy. Because Brady has been to two more SBs than Aikman did!!!

Danger Zone · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

ivanvamp said:
...Anybody who holds Brady's 2 SB losses against him compared to a guy like Aikman, for example, who never lost (and they have the same # of SB wins) is crazy. Because Brady has been to two more SBs than Aikman did!!!

Brady got us the lead with less than 3 minutes to go in both Superbowl games.

Wax Frog · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

They may not be coveted, but there *are* conference trophies and rings... Must be worth something

ivanvamp · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

Danger Zone said:
Brady got us the lead with less than 3 minutes to go in both Superbowl games.

Very true.

But they also scored 14 and 17 points in those Super Bowls, in seasons where they averaged 36.8 and 32.1 points a game, respectively. So yes, credit for getting the Patriots a lead late in the game, but on the whole, you can't score nearly 23 and 15 points less than your season's average and be very happy about the overall offensive performance.

captain stone · Feb 4, 2014

patsinthesnow said:
If Brees wins 1 more ring, do you put him above Manning on all time lists?

I already have.

varjao · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

ivanvamp said:
Very true.

But they also scored 14 and 17 points in those Super Bowls, in seasons where they averaged 36.8 and 32.1 points a game, respectively. So yes, credit for getting the Patriots a lead late in the game, but on the whole, you can't score nearly 23 and 15 points less than your season's average and be very happy about the overall offensive performance.

you realize super bowls are usually low scoring games right?

Well anyway you're right, but you can expect less than season's average in a SB, but in these 2 SB's were really low scoring, difficult to win a game with 14 points

TonyTucker · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

Danger Zone said:
Brady got us the lead with less than 3 minutes to go in both Superbowl games.

Actually, in SB46, it was with 11:30 left in the third quarter that the Pats scored 17, and didn't score again. But since we're in fantasy land, I'm changing it all. The Patriots didn't lose 21-17, they lost 35-31, with Brady going 13-13, 168 yards, 2 TD's in the fourth quarter before the defense gave up three straight touchdowns.

And Varjao, not that low scoring. There was only one team that won the SB while only scoring 14.

BradyFTW! · Feb 4, 2014

Lavictoire said:
I read tonight that Manning managed to complete a Super Bowl record 34 passes.

Say what?? He was invisible to me this game except when he threw to the Seahawks. How can this game be a record?

Probably because they down by >2 scores for the majority of the game, and the only throws that were available were quick, high-percentage underneath routes. You couldn't draw up a situation in which number of completions would be more thoroughly de-coupled from chances of winning.

ivanvamp · Feb 4, 2014

Re: After last night...

varjao said:
you realize super bowls are usually low scoring games right?

Well anyway you're right, but you can expect less than season's average in a SB, but in these 2 SB's were really low scoring, difficult to win a game with 14 points

It's one thing to score fewer points than your season average. But the margins were way off. I mean, say the Pats score 10 fewer points than their 2011 average. They win the Super Bowl. They could have scored 18 fewer than their 2007 average, and they win that one too.

In both those games, they way underperformed offensively.

DocHoliday · Feb 4, 2014

I'm the biggest Brady homer and I truly believe he's the GOAT, but I do acknowledge why people think Brady's three are considered less than Manning's possible two.

I think it's mainly because people think that Brady didn't win them in his prime so it doesn't really count as fully 'his'. That it was a Trent Dilfer win.

I don't agree but it is what it is. If Brady had won them evenly spaced out I truly think the narrative around him would be different.

PatsFanSince74 · Feb 4, 2014

scott99 said:
Lowest QB rating ever yesterday ? Didn't Roethlisraper have like a 22 QB rating in his first SB win ? I thought THAT was the lowest ever.

22.52 to be precise. How dumb of me to think that 24.4 had to be the lowest ever! I think those are the two lowest QB ratings for a QB who started and played an entire SB game.

Ivan · Feb 4, 2014

I think it is important to note that pretty much all of those saying that this loss did not damage Manning's legacy are saying that he will continue to go down as one fo the greatest QB's of all time, and in that regard they are right, manning will go down as one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game. What most of us here are saying is not that he will no longer go down as one of the greatest QB's of all time, but that this loss takes him out of the discussion for the Greatest QB of All Time, and unless a miracle happens it has done just that.

RedSleevesPinkStripes · Feb 4, 2014

Ivan said:
I think it is important to note that pretty much all of those saying that this loss did not damage Manning's legacy are saying that he will continue to go down as one fo the greatest QB's of all time, and in that regard they are right, manning will go down as one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game. What most of us here are saying is not that he will no longer go down as one of the greatest QB's of all time, but that this loss takes him out of the discussion for the Greatest QB of All Time, and unless a miracle happens it has done just that.

Exactly. When people are saying "if he wins this one he's the GOAT" and then he lays an egg, it HAS to have an impact on his GOAT status.

Ring 6 · Feb 4, 2014

patsinthesnow said:
Hey, I was just thinking about this, maybe Pherein could chime in.

How about instead of Brady vs. Manning, what about Manning vs. Brees?

Both of them have insane stats (they will both finish top 3 all time in passing yards & TDs), both will probably finish top 5 all time in qbr, and both have 1 ring.

(Both are also dome stat padders, but that's besides the point )

Brees playoff record: 6-5, 1-0 in Superbowls
Manning playoff record: 11-2, 1-2 in Superbowls

If Brees wins 1 more ring, do you put him above Manning on all time lists?

Brees doesn't make gestures at the los that makes people think he is smarter than everyone else.

Ring 6 · Feb 4, 2014

ivanvamp said:
I agree, but as you point out in a later post, it's better to get further in the playoffs than bow out earlier.

Sure, there is nothing contradictory about that.
Manning closed the gap on Brady this year. But the gap is so enormous it is barely noticeable.

Dutchmaster617 · Feb 4, 2014

Peyton has thrown the same amount of TD passes in his 3 SBs, as Brady in his 3rd year against CAR.

Think about how that looks...

How much does this SB loss damage Peyton Manning's legacy?

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