Defense wins championships

Marqui said:

Well we have the great Rob Ninkovich for that.

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Some 4-3 Defensive Ends that affected the QB less than Ninkovich last year (sacks, hits and hurries/snap):

Jared Allen
JPP
Carlos Dunlap
Michael Johnson
Chandler Jones
Shaun Philips
Jason Babin
Julius Peppers


He was as effective at getting to the QB as Mario Williams. Cameron Wake had only three more total pressures, Michael Bennett three less.

Nink is not the problem on this defense.

Wilfork#75 said:

One last thing on the Seattle defense, the thing they did tonight and the thing they do better than any other team in the NFL is tackle. It seems like such a basic thing but they didn't give Denver any easy yards. I don't know how many times the extra effort and intensity in their tackling stopped 1st downs. That is something I think the Pats really need to improve upon because far too many times this season our defenders put themselves in positions to make plays but couldn't do it. Tackling is one of the most basic elements of football, but tonight Seattle showed just how important it is.

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I would add speed. They got to the ball in a hurry. They weren't about to give up any 3rd and 20 draw plays or QB scrambles.

If BB was the coach of Denver, they would have won today. I don't agree with the "defense wins Championships" thing. The best football team wins. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

So no, I don't think we need to "mold our team after Seattle!!!111ONE!!!!"

Yes, the way they won was very successful, but that's not the only formula to win.

Wilfork#75 said:

One last thing on the Seattle defense, the thing they did tonight and the thing they do better than any other team in the NFL is tackle. It seems like such a basic thing but they didn't give Denver any easy yards. I don't know how many times the extra effort and intensity in their tackling stopped 1st downs. That is something I think the Pats really need to improve upon because far too many times this season our defenders put themselves in positions to make plays but couldn't do it. Tackling is one of the most basic elements of football, but tonight Seattle showed just how important it is.

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What Seattle does, which NE hasn't done since about the time Bruschi retired (for reference, not a statement about Bruschi), is play defense aggressively even when passive play is called. The Seahawks may be sitting back in a cover two and dropping 8, but they're flying all over the damned place while they're doing it.

That's what carried Seattle this year. That's what carried Baltimore last year. That's what carried NYG in 2011. When defensive teams win nowadays, they do it because they play all out on pretty much every play, instead of letting a more passive/submissive mindset affect them on a bunch of plays.

Deus Irae said:

What Seattle does, which NE hasn't done since about the time Bruschi retired (for reference, not a statement about Bruschi), is play defense aggressively even when passive play is called. The Seahawks may be sitting back in a cover two and dropping 8, but they're flying all over the damned place while they're doing it.

That's what carried Seattle this year. That's what carried Baltimore this year. That's what carried NYG in 2011. When defensive teams win nowadays, they do it because they play all out on pretty much every play, instead of letting a more passive/submissive mindset affect them on a bunch of plays.

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This I agree with. It was why Jamie Collins so impressed in the Colts game. We need to add heat seeking missiles.

manxman2601 said:

This I agree with. It was why Jamie Collins so impressed in the Colts game. We need to add heat seeking missiles.

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Like, maybe a proper safety? An additional LB for depth purposes, along with Fletcher?

Either of those would work for me.

BradyToAmendola said:

If BB was the coach of Denver, they would have won today. I don't agree with the "defense wins Championships" thing. The best football team wins. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

So no, I don't think we need to "mold our team after Seattle!!!111ONE!!!!"

Yes, the way they won was very successful, but that's not the only formula to win.

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The best football team did actually win today, and win the whole thing. In the context of the playoffs, however, this is generally pretty rare. The game probably would have been closer if not for the fact that everything that could possibly go wrong for the Broncos went wrong.

Anyone complaining about Ninkovich is being absurd, though. The issue with Ninkovich and Jones was that they played such a ridiculously high percentage of the team's total snaps that by the end of the year they were totally gassed.

Pats need an identity on D and like others say a different approach to their coaching. I am surprised Matt Patricia even has a laminated play sheet because it seems like he runs the same vanilla D every play. Pats are pretty bad in anticipating what the opposition is going to do offensively--they just react and concede yardage. This is a loser's mentality and as a fan this drives me nuts. There definitely needs to be more focus on tackling technique and taking better angles in coverage. Often when an opposing qb is challenging our secondary with throws, Arrington, Gregory, or Hightower have their backs turned towards the ball in flight. Some of these players aren't taught the right fundamentals.

I love Seattle's aggressive style and how they limit airspace between cornerback and receiver to a nanoinch. It's amazing to watch. I'm not saying the Pats need to be this good on D to win it all, they just need to be mediocre and be more competitive in pass coverage. This year they were a top 20s D IMO, and almost good enough to scrape by to obtain a SB berth. I think Logan Ryan is a nice find for the secondary...hopefully he flourishes in the system

primetime said:

The best football team did actually win today, and win the whole thing. In the context of the playoffs, however, this is generally pretty rare. The game probably would have been closer if not for the fact that everything that could possibly go wrong for the Broncos went wrong.

Anyone complaining about Ninkovich is being absurd, though. The issue with Ninkovich and Jones was that they played such a ridiculously high percentage of the team's total snaps that by the end of the year they were totally gassed.

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And don't forget the interior pressure. The Seahawks had probably 4 better interior pocket-pushers than the Pats did by the end of the season. Manning couldn't step up for a lot of the night.

Why does getting another DE mean that Ninkovich isnt good enough???

manxman2601 said:

I would add speed. They got to the ball in a hurry. They weren't about to give up any 3rd and 20 draw plays or QB scrambles.

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That was the thing manx, the defensive line was on Manning almost as soon as he had the ball. Either the Patriots need to draft quicker players on the line or Belichick needs to change the scheme and allow his players to head hunt opposing Quarterbacks.

I firmly believe the Patriots have some tools on D to push them toward the elite category. We'll see what card health deals them next season.

supafly said:

I definitely agree with you there.

That said, it's probably easier to say than achieve, as they have excellent talent on that side of the ball. While we have some good players, there's obviously no comparison on many levels.

I don't think we're that far off from doing it in a different fashion though, as attempting to replicate SEA's defense would be a futile effort. It would be nice to see some of those fundamental areas addressed, however. Tacking has indeed been an issue at times.

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I think the biggest thing when it comes to tackling is attitude. Seattle's entire defense plays with a nastiness and none of them are afraid to make a hit. I'm not saying that some of our defenders are soft, but I think we can improve our attitude and intensity in that department. I think we generally swarm to the ball pretty well, but like manx said speed also plays a major part. Having both Spikes and Hightower on the field together certainly slowed us down, but hopefully with Collins taking over from Spikes we will be a lot more athletic.

I agree that this defense isn't that far off and we should do it in our own way and not try to copy anyone else. I am happy with our secondary assuming Talib is re-signed and I don't want to change much there because I think continuity is important. LBer is set up quite well but I wouldn't mind another high level athlete. Where I think we need to improve is some playmakers up front. Another DE to rotate with Jones and Ninko, a pass rushing DT and maybe a run stuffing DT to replace Wilfork (this is certainly a long term need). The core is there we just need some difference makers.

manxman2601 said:

I would add speed. They got to the ball in a hurry. They weren't about to give up any 3rd and 20 draw plays or QB scrambles.

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NE is trying to play 4-3 speed defense with 3-4 thumper players. If you take Jones out of the equation, you've got 3-4 defenders at every other front 7 spot (Well, Kelly and Vince can handle both, but Vince loses some of what makes him great when you go to the 4-3, and Kelly becomes a lesser player in the 3-4).

Deus Irae said:

What Seattle does, which NE hasn't done since about the time Bruschi retired (for reference, not a statement about Bruschi), is play defense aggressively even when passive play is called. The Seahawks may be sitting back in a cover two and dropping 8, but they're flying all over the damned place while they're doing it.

That's what carried Seattle this year. That's what carried Baltimore last year. That's what carried NYG in 2011. When defensive teams win nowadays, they do it because they play all out on pretty much every play, instead of letting a more passive/submissive mindset affect them on a bunch of plays.

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I completely agree, its all about attitude and intensity. I think you put it perfectly, the Pats are a very passive defense. Spikes is a guy that gave us some attitude in the middle but he had his physical limitations. I would love a more physical safety presence at the back but we haven't been able to acquire one as yet. Watching the start of this game it reminded me of the way the Pats played the Rams in the Super Bowl, every time a WR or RB made a catch they made sure they hit them HARD. Kam Chancellor set the tone early and they didn't let up until the game was well in hand.

ausbacker said:

That was the thing manx, the defensive line was on Manning almost as soon as he had the ball. Either the Patriots need to draft quicker players on the line or Belichick needs to change the scheme and allow his players to head hunt opposing Quarterbacks.

I firmly believe the Patriots have some tools on D to push them toward the elite category. We'll see what card health deals them next season.

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Would a Jones-Armstead-Kelly-Collins* lineup achieve that? I like the potential. You could maybe swap in Aaron Donald for Armstead perhaps if so inclined.

Collins as a sub DE or blitzing LB.

manxman2601 said:

He was as effective at getting to the QB as Mario Williams.

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I was born at night, not last night.

manxman2601 said:

Would a Jones-Armstead-Kelly-Collins* lineup achieve that? I like the potential. You could maybe swap in Aaron Donald for Armstead perhaps if so inclined.

Collins as a sub DE or blitzing LB.

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The athleticism seems to be there but my opinion on Armstead has changed to a nothing acquisition until he proves otherwise. That could change quickly if he's healthy in 2014.

The thing that stands out to me manx is the DL needs to do 6-8 deep with players who can make plays not just players who can do a job. It's weird mainly because when the Pats take the shackles off the D they can look dominant. It really does raise the question of scheme versus talent.

manxman2601 said:

You could maybe swap in Aaron Donald for Armstead perhaps if so inclined.

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I am so inclined (to agree)

Marqui said:

I was born at night, not last night.

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Ninkovich had 8 sacks, 14 hits and 46 hurries. Williams had 14, 7 and 48.

ausbacker said:

The athleticism seems to be there but my opinion on Armstead has changed to a nothing acquisition until he proves otherwise. That could change quickly if he's healthy in 2014.

The thing that stands out to me manx is the DL needs to do 6-8 deep with players who can make plays not just players who can do a job. It's weird mainly because when the Pats take the shackles off the D they can look dominant. It really does raise the question of scheme versus talent.

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I agree they need depth, particularly on the DL. My feeling is that they can become a much better D Line playing much more situationally than they presently do.

supafly said:

I am so inclined (to agree)

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I'm a huge fan but he won't come cheap. He's probably a first rounder which is a lot for a 6'1" 287lb DT. That will be hard for BB I think. But man he's fun to watch.