Reiss:Angelo's view on misguided Pats plan

Think how bad this year would have been if we had not made the best wide receiver free agent signing in the entire league, by far, in terms of production for cost (JE).

yeah, I know, we don't count it because he didn't change uniforms.

but it still happened

Mack Herron said:

So according to Angelo BB should have anticipated having Gronk, Ahern and Amendola injured or imprisoned? Take the Thomases out of the Bronco's line-up and Mannning faces a similar situation.

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Gronk and Amendola, yep. Look, the Welker thing blew up in Belichick's face, and Belichick crying like a big baby about the Talib hit didn't help. Welker made him look like a stooge. The Pats need to get some good healthy TE's. I've seen enough of Hooman and Matt Mulligan.

Mack Herron said:

Your claim may or may not be true. The term "injury prone" seems to lie largely in the eye of the beholder. Edelman was injury prone but healthy, while Mayo was not injury prone and injured. So it is not obvious to me that past injuries are good predictors of future injuries. Perhaps you are better able to foresee injuries and which players the team can and cannot count on. But did you in fact predict any of the injuries you claim were predictable? Did you point out before the fact that BB should not rely on the TEs or DA because of injuries? I am simply asking for evidence that we can predict who will be injured. Surely you will appreciate the value of such evidence. It would be a rather interesting exercise, I suggest, if you (or others) would list the players who we can and cannot count on in 2014.

Jerry Angelo?s Take That Bill Belichick Built Patriots? Offense Wrong Is Laughable | New England Patriots | NESN.com

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Nice rebuttal by Kyed there.

I always like the "built this team for such-and-such" expertise of the mediots. Best ever was in '04 when the Sox had the miraculous comeback over the Yankees.

I remember hearing mediot guys blabbing about how the Sox had been built to beat the Yankees...yeah, right, if Roberts is 3 inches slower, he's out and they're swept...and those same mediots would be talking about how the Sox weren't built to beat the Yankees.

Everyone has missed the operative sentence in the interview. Angelo said:

"They then viewed Danny Amendola as a capable replacement for Wes Welker in 2013 and liked the idea of a Gronkowski/Hernandez/Amendola core. Young receivers Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce and Kenbrell Thompkins could then complement that core, and if Julian Edelman was healthy, he'd be another valuable piece."

BB expected to have a dominant receiving corps and lots of good rookies too.

I have watched as Belichick has rebuilt the Super Bowl clubs grown slow and not making turnovers, into a completely new Patriot Team with only Tom Brady remaining.

He worked first on Offense, protecting the Franchise QB, adding Volmer, Cannon and Solder while paying Mankins. One year he added TEs; another year he added RBs. This past season he added new WRs. There are now two or more stars at all offensive skill positions and on the Offensive line.

He also began the much slower reconstruction of the Defense, He added a new foundation LB, and then signed good FAs and drafted young CBs and Safeties. He drafted more LBs until he had at least a startable group, He found a new OLB/DE in Ninko, broke tradition by trading up for playmakers Chandler and Hightower, last season. He even went for a potential playmaker in Jamie Collins this past draft. The constant churning in the secondary started to slow despite injuries to very good Bodden, and high promise Ras_i, Butler and tiny Wheately.

Going into this season I thought this 2013 squad was the strongest since 2004. There are at least two stars in every squad on both Defense and Offense . How long has that been since it was true?

Then injuries to the stars accumulated this season. Nevertheless the Pats still played in the AFCCG. He even turned misfortune to advantage finding both a nobody stay home NT, and also a pentrating 3 technique DT, who if not stars are very good playable depth.

Through it all he has continued to win, BB and his hand picked scouting staff both collegiate and especially pro, have found more talent than any other, They unearthed 17 rookies this year alone. It is made all the more remarkable without having the high draft picks a rebuilding club usually has due to its losing record.

BB the Coach and his hand picked assistants have molded that talent into winners,

It is clear that BB thought he had it all in 2013 entering the preseason. He was willing to draft "finishing touches" the past two drafts,believing the reconstruction was nearly finished. BB succeeded and got them, and a whole lot more too as it turned out.

Watch out NFL, the 2014 Patriots are coming.

Conveniently forgotten is that BB tried to get Emanuel Sanders.

Conveniently forgotten is that most of the WRs had injuries most of the season, including all three rookies, causing them to miss significant playing time.

Conveniently forgotten is that there were really no other talented WRs readily available, except in return for a King's ransom.

Conveniently forgotten is the cap hit the Pats took in the Hernandez Murder Incorporated debacle.

Conveniently forgotten is that the Pats lost the AFC Championship in the trenches as much or more than anywhere else.

Frankly, Reiss was being kind in his tepid criticism of Angelo.

AzPatsFan said:

There are now two or more stars at all offensive skill positions...

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maybe you need to define "star" for me.

Dobson?
free agent Edelman?
part-time benched fumbler Ridley?
free agent Blount?
injury-plagued Vereen?

I'd think that we can't really count a free agent as being a star, in place, on the roster going forward.

I don't think we have any WRs remotely of star quality, except possibbly JE. I'm for sure not seeing them two deep

What I never see get brought up is the fact that BB let J. Edelman go test free agency. He didn't even think he was worth 1 Million.

What if the Giants had signed him? Where would this offense have been then?

JE would probably have signed a deal somewhere in the range of a 3 year / 6 million type deal this past off season.

Now if the Pats want to keep him they are going to have to pay big time.

TomPatriot said:

Conveniently forgotten is that BB tried to get Emanuel Sanders.

Conveniently forgotten is that most of the WRs had injuries most of the season, including all three rookies, causing them to miss significant playing time.

Conveniently forgotten is that there were really no other talented WRs readily available, except in return for a King's ransom.

Conveniently forgotten is the cap hit the Pats took in the Hernandez Murder Incorporated debacle.

Conveniently forgotten is that the Pats lost the AFC Championship in the trenches as much or more than anywhere else.

Frankly, Reiss was being kind in his tepid criticism of Angelo.

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How did BB try to get Sanders? They offered him a bag of dirt

It's easy to Monday morning QB and point out teams deficiencies (they all have some) it's another to offer a solution within the parameters given.

Nordberg said:

How did BB try to get Sanders? They offered him a bag of dirt

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you're nuts. He was a restricted free agent, the Pats made an offer and Pittsburgh MATCHED IT. Moron.

Angelo's perspective and opinion tell me two things about people who either don't follow or only casually follow the New England Patriots.

1. Outside observers really have no idea of the extent of the teams injuries in 2013.

2. That casual observers have no idea how much the Hernandez situation negatively impacted our offense in 2013.

Fact of the matter is the Pats had a Perfect Storm of bad luck to their offensive receiving position. Other than Hernandez, you might have been able to predict any one of things that hit this receiving corp, but the odds of everything happening was remote.

Yes, you could have predicted the possibility of Gronk having a season ending injury, Amendola having a groin tear that hindered his production all year, Donald Jones not making the team (although not the reason why), Vereen missing significant time, etc. But even with the history of these players, the odds that all these things happening is incredibly remote.

Yes, I am sure Belichick knew the risks on his roster, but there was no way for him to expect Donald Jones would have to retire due to a disease he had his entire life and never hindered him AND Aaron Hernandez would be incarcerated for murder AND Danny Amendola would tear his adductor muscle AND Shane Vereen would break his wrist and miss ten games AND Gronk would be so slow to return to the line up and blow out his knee after six games AND Aaron Dobson getting a stress fracture in his foot that kept him out of most of the end of the season and playoffs and ineffective when he was in. In any normal season, three of these things happening would be considered extreme and unexpected even with injury prone players.

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

maybe you need to define "star" for me.

Dobson?
free agent Edelman?
part-time benched fumbler Ridley?
free agent Blount?
injury-plagued Vereen?

I'd think that we can't really count a free agent as being a star, in place, on the roster going forward.

I don't think we have any WRs remotely of star quality, except possibbly JE. I'm for sure not seeing them two deep

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PLease recall that the perspective was preseason 2013. A star is a player good enough to be discussed as a Probowl invitee.

The definition of a star RB is a 1000 yard season, Ridley and Blount have done so, before this season.

Two stars in the receiving corps are Gronkowski and Hernandez/Welker replaced by Edelman. Toss in Amendola too. In the 2013 preseason Aaron Hernandez was viewed as a star, which Edelmen replaced.

The Offensive line sported Volmer, Solder and Mankins as stars.

Brady is a star QB, Mallett has star qualifications but hasn't played.

So all the sub squads on Offense have two stars or more, except for QB, one of whom is GOAT; and other is uncertain.

Defense has Jones and Ninkovitch, DT has/had Wilfork and Kelly.

The LBs had Mayo, Hightower, Spikes and now Collins

The secondary has Talib and McCourty and possibly Dennard as stars.

Special Teams has Gostkowski,Slater and Edelman at PR as stars.

How else did they go 12-4 and earning another AFCCG invitation.?

Deus Irae said:

Donald Jones sucked in Buffalo as well as NE. He was never going to be the answer.

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Didn't somebody predict him to get 1200 yards lol?

Deus Irae said:

But they are, and history shows this. It shows it in sport after sport, and it shows it in regular life. Some people, for whatever reason(s), are more likely to suffer injury than others, just as some people are more likely to become ill than others. There's a study showing that girls are much more prone to concussions than boys, for example.

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I agree with you here. However, a few things. Athletes can go from being injury prone to no longer injury prone. A great example is Fred Taylor, who went from "Fragile Freddy" early in his career to a stretch of 7 years where he had about as good of a health record as could be expected from a running back.

Eric Decker, an example I've seen you cite a few times in this thread, was actually quite injury prone in college, though his games played log may not indicate so. He left a number of games or was limited by injury due to leg injuries and concussions, and missed the final four games of his career to a sprained foot. It was a big factor in his not being drafted until Round 3.

None of this is to say that Gronk and Amendola are not injury prone. Nor am I saying that extra consideration should not be given to those players who have demonstrated to be durable, such as Brady or Big Vince or Mayo (prior to this year, of course), but rather to say that when it comes to injuries, leopards can change their stripes.

Hercules Rockefeller said:

I agree with you here. However, a few things. Athletes can go from being injury prone to no longer injury prone. A great example is Fred Taylor, who went from "Fragile Freddy" early in his career to a stretch of 7 years where he had about as good of a health record as could be expected from a running back.

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This is true. However, if you sign a guy who's in the Fragile Freddy stage, you have to expect to get Fragile Freddy, until they show that they no longer have the issue. The Patriots didn't have a single veteran receiver on the roster who didn't fit that mold.

Vereen
Gronk
AHern
Edelman
Amendola

Or, we can look at it another way. If you'd have listed the offensive players most likely to miss games due to injury, you'd have listed exactly the ones who got hurt, and added Vollmer. The only one who escaped the bug was Edelman.


BTW, I don't revel in this stuff being true. I wish it weren't. When I was young, I spent most of my time playing sports, and suffered only one minor injury of any real note (cartilage, knee). Then, very early into my adult years, I suffered a freak accident and significant injury, and I spent the rest of my sporting life going from one injury to another. The freak accident had changed by balance/angles/etc... just enough that I went from durable to "Fragile Freddy", even though I was still a pretty good athlete.

Nordberg said:

How did BB try to get Sanders? They offered him a bag of dirt

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Joker said:

you're nuts. He was a restricted free agent, the Pats made an offer and Pittsburgh MATCHED IT. Moron.

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The popular thinking at the time was that Belichick took advantage of Pittsburgh's stupid decision to tender him at only 1.3 million, therefore forcing their hand to double their price when they were extremely cap pressed.

It was really a great move by Belichick and was often seen as a "win-win," since if he actually got Sanders, it would have cost him nothing more than the 3rd they were planning on spending in the draft (tack on another 1.5m or so for experience vs the raw, rookie pick, which is reasonable). As we know, those people were right on the money with their 3rd round WR prediction, especially since Belichick chose a 2nd and a 4th.

It is safe to say however, that he certainly could've upped his offer to something that the Steelers definitely would have turned down if NE had wanted him that badly, as the thinking on all of the talk shows here in Pittsburgh was that they pretty much knew the whole time that PIT would not only keep in during a year where they had just lost Wallace, but that they'd be forced to pay handsomely for their mistake.

In other words, there's still some debate as to whether or not Belichick honestly made a move to seriously attempt to get him, or if he did just because PIT made a big mistake and took a gamble thinking no one would notice their 1.3m tender. Either way it was a smart move by Belichick. Maybe we can have that opportunity again this year.

Nordberg said:

JE would probably have signed a deal somewhere in the range of a 3 year / 6 million type deal this past off season.

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Extremely doubtful, considering that Edelman had reception totals of 21, 7, and 4 during his last three years here, and was constantly injured in the process to boot.

I'm not sure who you'd really have expected to pay him "3/6" or 2 million per year AAV, when we re-signed him for less than 33% of that price?

Nordberg said:

Now if the Pats want to keep him they are going to have to pay big time.

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I think once again, this is debatable too. Many tend to overvalue their projections of free agents. Last year it was everyone claiming that Talib would get a 5/50 pact, while Welker would draw 4/40. Those "90 million dollar" totals for those two players ended up being approximately 11 million....

Edelman will obviously be looking at a nice pay raise, but if you honestly valued his potential at 2m AAV last year, I don't see how you're going to see them having to pay "big time" in order to keep him?

Those who have reasonable projections see him around 3.5 to 4 million per year AAV, and that may even be giving him the benefit of the doubt. Any halfway decent coach/GM around the league is going to realize that Edelman had one good year under our insane circumstances here at WR, where Brady often had Edelman in the slot, a hobbled Amendola playing a totally different role....and a bunch of rookies who produced totals of 18, 11, and 7 catches over their last THREE months of play.

I'm expecting NE to offer him something fair, with potential to reach more via incentives, as he can stay here and continue to build his resume with good friend Tom Brady in a winning system that guarantees him to see a lot of targets, in a scheme that he is very familiar with. There are reasons for Edelman to want to stay too, believe me.

Bill has had chances over the years to draft & develop WRs, and has failed miserably:

2008 - Maybe Brady could've worked with 3rd-rounders Early Doucet or fellow Michigan alum
Mario Manningham; instead he drafts the already-known crapfest of Chicken Legs Crable and
Kevin OConnell.

2009 - Brandon Tate ahead of Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline, Austin Collie or even Brandon Gibson? The same Brandon Tate who was recovering from a major knee injury, had hardly
played WR in college, and failed the peepee test at the combine?

2009 - Julian Edelman; about time.

2010 - 4th-round talent Jerry Cunnyham at 52nd overall instead of the top-40 talent, and
Charlie Weis-trained Golden Tate? Jaw-droppingly dumb.

2010 - No attempt to fill the depth chart in the 7th round with the still-available Blair White,
Urban Meyer-coached David Nelson, or Pat Hill-coached Seyi Ajirotutu; instead, we get the wastes of picks Zac Robinson & Kade Weston.

2012 - Another opportunity to fill the depth chart in the 7th round with a versatile size/speed athlete in Michigan alum Junior Hemingway; Bill instead chooses the miniscule, redundant
Jeremy Ebert.

2013 - Keenan Allen falls into his lap, and Bill chooses Aaron Dropson instead; nuff ced.

Always interesting to see when posters discuss how the draft could have been better than it was, after the first round.. while ignoring all of the successes.

The reality of what happened to this team is simple..

In 2012 the TE production was 116 catches and 16 TD's
In 2013 the TE production was 56 catches and 6 TD's

What was planned for in March/April was not on the field in September, and this put more focus on the rookie receivers and the offense had to reinvent itself several times throughout the season...

I listen to talk radio more often than I should, and hear the continual whine about what a great coach BB is, but what a terrible GM BB is.. all the while the hosts ignore these basic facts.