When Manning loses the SB, are the comparisons with TB over?

So here is the problem, no matter what happens this gets debated to eternity. The reason I think is that Brady has had a lot more chances to get more SB wins than manning, 5 times there, how many AFC champ games etc. ok so don't hate on me but in the big games, SB and AFC champ games the last 8-9 years TB just has not performed they way he was expected, he is in the same boat as manning, great regular seasons and not so good playoffs. I agree that if the broncos lose the adage of defense wins championships will be once again proven. But let's face it folks while we might not want to admit it TB has not played well in most of his big games in the playoffs over the last 8-9 years. I don't think either manning or Brady will be able to match up to Montana. Brady's play over the last few playoff seasons have really disappointed me. Blame welker all you want but Brady's throw to him in the SB was terrible much like the one to JE in the game against the broncos this year, he isn't as clutch as people would believe, I think if manning wins next week he gets the nod over Brady if for no other reason than doing it at age 37 and after all that surgery and rehab. I'm a lifelong NE fan but I'm also realistic enough to remove my emotions forma the analysis.

obgod3 said:

So here is the problem, no matter what happens this gets debated to eternity. The reason I think is that Brady has had a lot more chances to get more SB wins than manning, 5 times there, how many AFC champ games etc. ok so don't hate on me but in the big games, SB and AFC champ games the last 8-9 years TB just has not performed they way he was expected, he is in the same boat as manning, great regular seasons and not so good playoffs. I agree that if the broncos lose the adage of defense wins championships will be once again proven. But let's face it folks while we might not want to admit it TB has not played well in most of his big games in the playoffs over the last 8-9 years. I don't think either manning or Brady will be able to match up to Montana. Brady's play over the last few playoff seasons have really disappointed me. Blame welker all you want but Brady's throw to him in the SB was terrible much like the one to JE in the game against the broncos this year, he isn't as clutch as people would believe, I think if manning wins next week he gets the nod over Brady if for no other reason than doing it at age 37 and after all that surgery and rehab. I'm a lifelong NE fan but I'm also realistic enough to remove my emotions forma the analysis.

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Without resurrecting the debate over how well Brady's played in the final losses in those cases — he does deserve credit for having a key role in the Pats getting to all those AFCCGs and Super Bowls. And that includes playoff success. Early-round-wins >>>>>One-and-dones. I don't see how you can discredit Brady for getting to the big games more often.

If he wins the comparisons are over. If he loses most people will still consider him better but the comparisons won't be over.

So you have it backwards.

I was not intending to discredit him at all, and I do do give credit for getting that far, but come on you have to wonder why he has played subpar in every one of those games. But you have to resurrect the debate on how TB played you can't do a fair analysis without that factual data in front of you and the facts are he has not played well when everything was on the line, AFC champ and SB games. He also played a key. Role in winning 3 that I certainly understand. He also played keys roles in the losses. I don't see how you can do a fair analysis without including the reality of his play in those games. Anyway I'm sure we won't agree but that's all I have to say about it. I'm not saying I want another QB for NE either.

Don't figure me for the doom and gloom guy, I have been watching the Pats my entire life and I am thrilled at what they have done the last 12 years, and I'm a very patient fan that realizes what we got.

I'm not sure what Kennyb is really trying to say but IMHO if manning wins next week the comparison is over, manning wins.

If the Broncos lose it will prove (as if 2007 didn't prove it already) that defense wins championships.

The last defense this team has had that was feared by others was 2004. Funny that it was also the last time this team won it all. There's a good reason why teams with great defenses and ordinary QB's win titles and teams with terrible defenses and great offenses don't.

As for the debate - until Brady wins another ring he is looking up at Manning in public perception. Just the way it is.

Interesting stuff from NFL.com:

• In the playoffs, Peyton Manning is 0-4 in games with a kickoff temperature under 40 degrees. The only game in Russell Wilson's NFL career when the kickoff temperature was under 40 degrees was at MetLife Stadium, Week 15 against the Giants. In that game, Wilson completed 66.7% of his passes, for 206 yards, one TD, one INT and a passer rating of 86.3. (Uncle Rico note: 'Hawks won, 23-0.)
  
• Peyton Manning is the fourth QB in NFL history to reach the Super Bowl after leading the NFL in passing yards and passing TD. Tom Brady, Kurt Warner and Dan Marino also accomplished this feat, after the 2007, 2001 and 1984 seasons, respectively. All lost by a combined score of 75-47 in the three Super Bowls. (Uncle Rico note: 22 of the 28 pts in that differential came in SB 19, Niners over Miami).
  
• Prior to this season, the eventual Super Bowl teams have met in the preseason six times since 1994. The preseason winner won five of those six Super Bowls. Back in August, the Seahawks beat the Broncos, 40-10, in each team's second game of the preseason.

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obgod3 said:

I was not intending to discredit him at all, and I do do give credit for getting that far, but come on you have to wonder why he has played subpar in every one of those games. But you have to resurrect the debate on how TB played you can't do a fair analysis without that factual data in front of you and the facts are he has not played well when everything was on the line, AFC champ and SB games. He also played a key. Role in winning 3 that I certainly understand. He also played keys roles in the losses. I don't see how you can do a fair analysis without including the reality of his play in those games. Anyway I'm sure we won't agree but that's all I have to say about it. I'm not saying I want another QB for NE either.

Don't figure me for the doom and gloom guy, I have been watching the Pats my entire life and I am thrilled at what they have done the last 12 years, and I'm a very patient fan that realizes what we got.

I'm not sure what Kennyb is really trying to say but IMHO if manning wins next week the comparison is over, manning wins.

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Don't forget in both super bowls when his team needed a TD late in the 4th quarter Brady brought the team down and scored to go ahead, it's not his fault the D crumbled otherwise he'd have 5 rings. This is the reason I like Seattle Sunday. Superior defense usually win.
Ask any receiver playing or retired whether that pass to Welker should have been caught, I've heard them all say you have to catch that ball. That was a simple back shoulder pass, an NFL receiver should make that catch in his sleep.

obgod3 said:

I was not intending to discredit him at all, and I do do give credit for getting that far, but come on you have to wonder why he has played subpar in every one of those games. But you have to resurrect the debate on how TB played you can't do a fair analysis without that factual data in front of you and the facts are he has not played well when everything was on the line, AFC champ and SB games. He also played a key. Role in winning 3 that I certainly understand. He also played keys roles in the losses. I don't see how you can do a fair analysis without including the reality of his play in those games. Anyway I'm sure we won't agree but that's all I have to say about it. I'm not saying I want another QB for NE either.

Don't figure me for the doom and gloom guy, I have been watching the Pats my entire life and I am thrilled at what they have done the last 12 years, and I'm a very patient fan that realizes what we got.

I'm not sure what Kennyb is really trying to say but IMHO if manning wins next week the comparison is over, manning wins.

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Key injuries and the defense choking has led to these last 3 playoff losses, and the 07 SB loss. Brady in both SB's late in the game put the defense in perfect position to win you had to keep them out if the EZ, that's it. They choked both away. This year, defense only had 1 shot and averaged over 3pts per drive, to our 2. To the ravens, talib goes out, Boldin has a huge game, defense couldn't stop the ravens, gronk out and welker gets the dropsies.

As much as a lot want to blame Brady, when you don't play as a team and help him out, it doesn't matter how good he plays. We won championships as a team, and lost because we didn't play as a team. You can't expect Tom to score 30+ points with some mediocre receivers, oline giving up sacks and pressures and receivers making key drops.

archeryaddict12 the point is he didn't play well and it does matter how he played, but he didn't play well in the last three post season losses.

Ök wait a second guys, I didn't blame anyone, I know all too well what it means to be part of a team and that wins and losses are team wins and loses. All I wanted to point out was in the debate about manning vs. Brady that when you "objectively" look at their careers your going to find Brady led his team to the most post season wins yes, but the percentage of big game wins if manning wins next week will belong to him. Yes injuries factor. But no one cares about the tools they had, outside of the NE fans of course. You can debate that with the fans outside NE all you want but you'll lose that debate.

But guys for all you that are hardcore pats fans I can't believe you think that the last few years that Brady's play has been great in the post season, he has not and you all know it because you have been on these forums *****ing about piss poor throws during the games. Yes I Don't forget in both Super Bowls Brady did score late, yep i get it, but his offense was held to under 20 points in both cases when they had regular season averages of over 30. Just like folks judge manning here, Brady will be judged on his offense in the post season and it has not worked out so well, we all know manning took the heat for their loss last year when it was clearly the Denver defense that lost it.

Seattle has a good chance next week I agree.

I would also say the game plans haven't been that good either for NE in the last few years.

If the baby is ugly call it ugly.

Anyway I get your points, my only point was Brady hasn't played well in the post season the last several years. I'm not going to post about it again because I already said this will be debated for eternity.

This season will either validate Manning as one of the greatest of all time, or validate the critics who say he is the perfect regular season QB but just can't perform consistently well in the playoffs.

Manning will probably win the SB with Denver in 8 days

The Question is

Who would you want to win more "Manning or Sherman"?

the guys that respect Brady/Bill Belichick

or

the guys who hates Brady, and Brady hates

...... not sure, but won't be watching like Brady.

If we need to use championships as a barometer to GOAT QB, then Otto Graham, who won 7 with the Cleveland Browns from 1946-55, is the hands down greatest QB who ever lived. Period. Thus endeth the history lesson.