This is the best pass D Denver has faced

signbabybrady said:

I think its 2003 by a good distance but not sure I split exactly the way you do.

Maybe more like this for my opinion.

Law >>Talib (Law was better than Talib but not that much where Law really seperates himself is he was this good a lot longer)
Harrison >>>>>McCourty (agree with you here)
Poole > Dennard (again agree with you but Dennard will be better soon and hopefully for longer)
Wilson < Gregory (I personally think Gregory is a little more versatile and neither is special)

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Once again - Harrison never played the same position job McCourty plays - - that was Eugene Wilson. THAT would be the comparison. Agreed, SS Harrison was miles better than SS Steve Gregory.

You are matching up the wrong comparisons, i.e. comparing Spikes to McGinest instead of Ted Johnson.

its not about the starting DB's but the dept the pats have right now, we know Dennard and Aqib Talib are good and McCourty is all pro but Logan Ryan leads the team in INT's and Arrington could be starting on a few teams,


the pats have not had this kind of dept at DB in a long time. if the pats can get the pass rush going they could get some turnovers out of Peyton

shmessy said:

You're switching job positions there. It's like comparing Spikes to McGinest instead of Ted Johnson.

Eugene Wilson wasa CB who moved to FREE Safety - - he compares to former CB Centerfielder McCourty, not Gregory.

Dennard (when healthy - i.e. now) is MILES above Tyrone Poole.

Harrison was a STRONG (very) Safety - comparing his job and what he did to McCourty's job is several football fields off. Obviously, he was MILES better than Gregory is.

Most importantly (especially this week when they will have to play alot of Nickel and Dime), as I mentioned earlier, the depth after that is superior this year also.

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I'm not switching anything, in the sense that you are claiming. I'm evaluating best to best. Talib's been good. Law was much better in 2003. Dennard's and Poole have both been good, but the nod goes to Poole. I actually understated this edge, because that was probably the best year of Poole's caeer (21 PD, 6 INTs, 3 FF, 16 games played), but I didnt' want it to seem like I was kneejerking about 2003.

Harrison was excellent in 2003, and Wilson could both cover and tackle at that time, which gave the Patriots two safeties who could do that. The 2013 version has just one.

Deus Irae said:

I'm not switching anything, in the sense that you are claiming. I'm evaluating best to best. Talib's been good. Law was much better in 2003. Dennard's and Poole have both been good, but the nod goes to Poole. I actually understated this edge, because that was probably the best year of Poole's caeer (21 PD, 6 INTs, 3 FF, 16 games played), but I didnt' want it to seem like I was kneejerking about 2003.

Harrison was excellent in 2003, and Wilson could both cover and tackle at that time, which gave the Patriots two safeties who could do that. The 2013 version has just one.

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You make a very compelling argument. 2003 was an excellent secondary. I'm going to have to agree to disagree, however, with comparing a Strong Safety to a Free Safety. McCourty and Eugene Wilson took the same career path from CB to FS and they both were coverage-first safeties. I like to compare apples to apples ( i.e. the Spikes vs. Ted johnson example).

That being said, you overrate Harrison's coverage ability. The guy was a brilliant and tough player. By 2003, there was a REASON why SD let him walk. They overstated the reason, but there was a reason and he was NOT an above average coverage Safety. In coverage, he was average by that point. He held his own in coverage.

Once again, however, for THIS game against a QB whom they may have to use a lot of Nickel and Dime - - I'll take the depth of 2013's secondary over that of 2003's. A secondary is not just 4 guys. And against a Peyton Manning, it's not just 5 either.

You make a very good argument for taking the base 4 of 2003 over the base 4 of this year (I'm still not on board, but I can see the reasoning).

However for THIS game - against THIS QB, the base 5 or 6 is what is important. And I'll take 2013.

shmessy said:

Once again - Harrison never played the same position job McCourty plays - - that was Eugene Wilson. THAT would be the comparison. Agreed, SS Harrison was miles better than SS Steve Gregory.

You are matching up the wrong comparisons, i.e. comparing Spikes to McGinest instead of Ted Johnson.

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I was really just following what Dues did I didnt worry that much about which safety matched where I dont think it matters much the differences will add up either way.

to put it another way if we were picking back yard ball one game 2003 and 2013 secondary to chose from the first two picked would be Law and Harrison....
Then:
Talib
McCourty
Poole
Dennard
Gregory
Wilson

shmessy said:

You make a very compelling argument. 2003 was an excellent secondary. I'm going to have to agree to disagree, however, with comparing a Strong Safety to a Free Safety. McCourty and Eugene Wilson took the same career path from CB to FS and they both were coverage-first safeties. I like to compare apples to apples ( i.e. the Spikes vs. Ted johnson example).

That being said, you overrate Harrison's coverage ability. The guy was a brilliant and tough player. By 2003, there was a REASON why SD let him walk. They overstated the reason, but there was a reason and he was NOT an above average coverage Safety. In coverage, he was average by that point. He held his own in coverage.

Once again, however, for THIS game against a QB whom they may have to use a lot of Nickel and Dime - - I'll take the depth of 2013's secondary over that of 2003's. A secondary is not just 4 guys. And against a Peyton Manning, it's not just 5 either.

You make a very good argument for taking the base 4 of 2003 over the base 4 of this year (I'm still not on board, but I can see the reasoning).

However for THIS game - against THIS QB, the base 5 or 6 is what is important. And I'll take 2013.

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Harrison and Law were 1st team All-Pro in 2003. Wilson was excellent in his rookie season, and Poole had probably the best year of his career. I don't know how that's just "I'm still not on board, but I can see the reasoning", but we're clearly not going to agree here.

The 2003 Patriots allowed 11 TD, 29 INT. This is no comparison. By comparison, the dominant 2013 Seahawks Pass D allowed 16 TD, 28 INT

I'm not getting into the debate but in 2003 you were allowed to beat up on receivers a lot more.

shmessy said:

Wind chill of 6 with 30 mph winds that night in Foxboro.

He has 58 and sunny on Sunday while the Pats have to acclimate to the thinner air.

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I dont really buy too much into the weather factor. Both teams are dealing with the same conditions. Yes, TB is better in bad weather than the five head, but the other players are dealing with the same thing. IMO, it's Over blown.

Silver said:

I dont really buy too much into the weather factor. Both teams are dealing with the same conditions. Yes, TB is better in bad weather than the five head, but the other players are dealing with the same thing. IMO, it's Over blown.

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I disagree. That Nov pats/bronco game was brutally cold. Just the eye test alone told me Manning was severely affected by the conditions.

Sunday's game will be like a warm sunny October afternoon. Just what noodle arm needs.

Raymond said:

I disagree. That Nov pats/bronco game was brutally cold. Just the eye test alone told me Manning was severely affected by the conditions.

Sunday's game will be like a warm sunny October afternoon. Just what noodle arm needs.

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If the Pats do their job and disrupt the timing, they could be playing in a field of rainbows and it won't make a difference.

50-yard-line said:

I'd like to see the Chiefs' rating STARTING from their first Donkey game, when, the week previous, they had lost Hali and Houston. Their pass rush never recovered, and without that pass rush, they were a completely mediocre defense.

Also, they didn't PLAY ANYBODY until San Diego took them down. The only good team they had played was Philly, and they caught them very early, when Philly wasn't very good at all. The AFC West had bloated statistics this year because they played the NFC East and the AFC South, two truly horrible divisions. The best team in both were the Colts...we saw them last week and trashed them.

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This.

The Broncos played a long line of tomato cans until game 7 (Colts) which they promptly lost. In impressive fashion.

Then Bronco fans had to worry about the 3 game constrictor that featured KC, the Pats, and KC again on the road.

With Houston and Hali out, and no pass rush, the Chiefs become just another team, nothing special, definitely inferior to Denver.

When they played the Pats, looked like they were screaming out of the gates! Then Belichik and Brady calmed them down at halftime, came out smoking, and thoroughly embarrassed them. Some Denver scribes described the loss as "heartbreaking", but make no mistake - it was anything but. That was a total 30 minute demolition of "everybody's Super Bowl favorite".

The simple fact of the matter is, they didn't face a team at home with anything that approached a winning record (that was week 15, when SD came in to town sporting a 7-7 record). Of course, they promptly lost that one, too.

The combined records of Denver's opposition this season was 56 - 67 (45.5%). When you toss the records of the teams featured in the 3-game constrictor, the record becomes a somewhat less than stellar 31 - 62 (33.3%)

Now, I know job #1 is beating the guys they put in front of you, and the Broncos, to their credit, have done just that. But this is no battle of David vs Goliath. New England can win this one.

And they will, believe me!

But I was told this is the worst defense in the NFL, in both run and pass.

Deus Irae said:

Sorry, but it's 2003 by a mile.

Law >>>>>>>> Talib
Harrison >>>>> McCourty
Poole > Dennard
Wilson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory

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No, it's not by a mile, not by a long shot. If the 2013 DBs were given the same rules the 2003 DBs were afforded, this Patriots Secondary would be nasty. The real weakness I see is Gregory and he's still serviceable.

If anything, they're probably evenly matched. That bodes well for the future if New England can re-sign these guys and add some more playmakers on D.

I really like the talent in this secondary but comparing this to the 2003 secondary doesn't make much sense. For for one thing the 2003 secondary helped win them a Super Bowl, and this group has yet to do that, for another the rules were entirely different then, and everyone would agree that the changes have made life much more difficult for DB's.

The makings are there for a greta secondary the next few years, especially if they can keep Talib around, but they still have a lot to prove and they while they started last Saturday and this Sunday will be a big test to get through. Looking forward to it, I believe they will pass it.

Dutchmaster617 said:

But I was told this is the worst defense in the NFL, in both run and pass.

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By who?? This isnt the duane starks secondary here