Idle Thoughts – the ground and pound edition

aluminum seats said:

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--Thought the same thing on booming the kickoff through the end zone after a penalty. Feels like there might be another option there. The thing is, kickoffs go for touchbacks so regularly anyway, it's almost like giving the team who commits the penalty a free shot on the conversion. Don't like it. On the flip side, any other play on the kickoff does give the receiving team a chance at a return, and you'd feel pretty dumb if they had a big return in that scenario. Not sure what the answer is.

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I said this in the game thread: When the defending team is penalized after a score, a touchback on the KO should result in the ball going to the 10, not the 20.

Couple of thing I didn't like about the play calling, we could have used the play action pass more to keep them from loading the box against the run. We only used it a couple of times. We should be running about 10 PA passes a game and not the type where Brady rolls out.

We had a 3rd and about .5yd, they faked the off tackle to the HB and handed off to Devlin who lost a yard. < 1 yd at mid field should be a QB sneak. It works 99% of the time, no tickery with < 1 td please, too cute by 1/2.

patfanken said:

OT- I have a rules question that's been bothering me since that play. What is the rule on a safety, because it wasn't Ryan that carried the ball into the endzone. It was a Colts defender, who punched the ball from the field of play out of the endzone. For a second I thought they were going to give the ball to the Pats on the 20, first and 10. It was my understanding that it was only a safety if the offensive team brought the ball into the endzone. This never happened.

It wasn't a big deal at the time, because I was thrilled we escaped that situation with the Colts getting only 2 points, but the more I thought on it, the more I'd like to know more about the call.

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Thank you! And yes, someone please clarify. When it happened, I was thinking Gumbel and Dierdorf were being morons for not noting that it was a fumble, with the opposing team knocking it out of the end zone. The refs were taking forever, etc. When they came back from commercial, I was expecting a challenge. Nothing.

Remember when Watson ran about a million yards to chase down Champ Bailey in that playoff game? And it was so close (I thought) to going through the end zone, which would have given the Pats the ball on the 20 (I thought). What gives?

letekro said:

Andy Dalton is just like Andrew Luck...except without all the talent. Maybe the media crowned him prematurely, but the fact is he carried a bad defense and mediocre skill players to the second round of the playoffs in his second year after turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team in his rookie year. By contrast, Dalton couldn't get a great defense and great skill players out of the first round in his 3d year. Like any young player, Luck is going to make mistakes, but I think you would have to be blind not to see that Luck is on the road to greatness.

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Point 1....the Colts wanted to be a 2-14 team...that point can't be argued. They literally turned the switch to off....then switched it back on once the Suck-for-Luck Mission was complete.
Point 2....The bad Colts defense you refer to gave up fewer points than NE.
Point 3....No question the guy has a cannon....and he makes some remarkable throws....But so what if you continue to hand the ball over to the other team, especially in your own end. At some point the Luck ball washers will change their tune and then they will demand accountability for those turnovers.....like Dalton is receiving now.
What good is the big arm if he gifts easy points to the other team. I used the Dalton analogy just to illustrate how the honeymoon stage can abruptly come to an end. To me, Dalton appears to big a big dumb jock and his lack of accountability after the playoff game demonstrates his obtuseness.
Point 4....The road to greatness?? If we exclude his post season turn-over-machine tendencies....I guess Luck is great.

aluminum seats said:

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Remember when Watson ran about a million yards to chase down Champ Bailey in that playoff game? And it was so close (I thought) to going through the end zone, which would have given the Pats the ball on the 20 (I thought). What gives?

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I wonder if the difference is which end zone — attacking or defending — it goes through once it leaves the hands of the possessing team.

Uncle Rico said:

I wonder if the difference is which end zone — attacking or defending — it goes through once it leaves the hands of the possessing team.

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It's possession, I suppose. Since the opposing team had the ball in the Denver scenario and the Pats had the ball here.

Uncle Rico said:

I said this in the game thread: When the defending team is penalized after a score, a touchback on the KO should result in the ball going to the 10, not the 20.

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Works for me.

aluminum seats said:

Thank you! And yes, someone please clarify. When it happened, I was thinking Gumbel and Dierdorf were being morons for not noting that it was a fumble, with the opposing team knocking it out of the end zone. The refs were taking forever, etc. When they came back from commercial, I was expecting a challenge. Nothing.

Remember when Watson ran about a million yards to chase down Champ Bailey in that playoff game? And it was so close (I thought) to going through the end zone, which would have given the Pats the ball on the 20 (I thought). What gives?

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I absolutely agree that it should have been (imho) a touchback. I also remember watching in awe that Watson play and how pissed I was when the refs refused to rule it a touchback.

I was happy that the Patriots got away with only a safety there, but it's true that the Colts' player knocked the ball through the end zone. I am positive that that should have been ruled a touchback, and it would be really nice to hear from someone about why it wasn't ruled that way.

borg said:

Calling that Sanchezian would be an insult to Sanchez.

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I like your post in general, but there is nothing you can say that could possibly be an insult to Sanchez

Every time I hear people talking about what Luck's done in only his second year I'm reminded that Brady won a SB the first year he played, then led the league in TD's his second year. And then just added a couple more SB's the two years after that.

patfanken said:

15. BTW- here's a thought. Why don't teams when they get the chance to KO from the 50, ever pooch kick it to about the 10 and force the receiving team to return it against a coverage team that has only a 40 yd sprint to reach the ball. If you kicked it high enough the coverage team would almost be on top the receiving team. Chances of a turn over would multiply, as well as the likelihood that the opposition would start inside their own 20. Seems like a waste of an opportunity to simply kick it through the endzone, and allow the opposition to start at the 20. Just a thought.

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I believe if the kickoff is straight into the air, the other team can fair catch it.

upstater1 said:

Chandler is looking like a Willie McGinest here.

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And Collins like Bruschi. But faster.

Good Stuff. Some thoughts ...

patfanken said:

1.Not to toot my own horn (right ), but pre game I felt that Jamie Collins on Fleener was the best match up, and it turned out to be right on the money. Talk about having a break out game. 6 tackles, one sack, 3 QB hits, 2 tackles behind the LOS, 2 pass defensed, and a pick. Now that is a full game at all 3 levels of play.

BB was very patient with this kid and it took most of the season for him to come to the fore. But this kid could be just what the LB corps needed. Great speed, freakish athleticism, surprising versatility, and a great attitude, and when he came to the Pats, he had no role. Now he does. He's our wild card. He's the opposing D's worst nightmare and our plug in match up problem. He is the kind of talent who make DC's love to come to work, especially if you are set up to run week to week defenses. You can't expect this kind of production every week now, but he certainly makes next year look really exciting.

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Collins has scary potential. As I've mentioned elsewhere, he's changed positions (QB -> DB -> LB -> DE) or coordinators/schemes every year since finishing high school, so it's remarkable how quickly he's progressed. Next year will be the first time in 5 years that he hasn't had to change positions or deal with new coaches or systems, so I expect a quantum leap. As Patchick noted in the postgame thread, just the ability to match up with TEs would have justified the pick, but Collins offers so much more.

patfanken said:

2.I watched Chandler Jones very closely this game. He had no sacks, but had a few hurries and hits. He could never get around the LT and often was run past the QB. Surprisingly, his best move was a straight bull rush. There were a number of times when he walked the T right back into Luck's face. I thought it was impressive since I think he has room to get stronger. I wish he had used it more often. Jones still isn't good enough to get by a decent OT one on one too often.

That being said, Jones is an excellent all round player, who sets the edge well and is good against the run, and while he might never lead the league in sacks, I wouldn't be surprised if he averaged double digits for his career here. He has a great motor, and OC's have to account for him. After Wilfolk. Mayo and McCourty, he's the next cornerstone player and will likely be a captain soon.

BTW- IIRC I think he had more success on the rush when the Pats put him inside a few plays. He's good now, but I think his best years are still ahead of him

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Jones played 98.1% of the defensive snaps during the regular season (Ninkovich played 95.6%; they had the highest snap counts of any DEs in the NFL this year), and IMHO he kind of wore down and lost just a touch of explosiveness, which impacted his ability to get to the passer down the stretch. In addition, both DEs were clearly focusing on gap control and not allowing Andrew Luck to make plays scrambling (only happened once when Jones lost his gap), and were willing to give up something to ensure that.

I love Jones and agree that he's a cornerstone player. But I think there is a greater need to draft another DE to play in a rotation with Jones and Ninkovich and keep people fresh than there is at DT given the emergence of Siliga and Jones, depending on how the veteran DT situation is resolved in the next 3 months.

patfanken said:

3.Pretty cool that our fill in, no name DT's each had a sack. Yes I know some will say Velano's was a trip, but I think the reason the refs didn't throw the flag was that Joe never stuck his foot out, Luck simply tripped over his foot while he was engaged with a blocker. BTW- I think that was Chris Jones' 7th sack. If at the start of the season I told you we'd have a DT with 6 or 7 sacks, we'd have all thought we had died and gone to heaven.

In fact think about this, including this playoff game. Cjones has 7, Velano has 3, Siliga has 3, Tommy Kelly had 2.5, and even Supoaga has 1. That's16.5 sacks from our inside rushers. Who've thunk it was possible.

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I think Siliga has been a terrific find. He and Chris Jones look like long-term "keepers" to me. Joe Vellano gives great effort, but I'm less sure about him for the long term. All things considered, our depth at DT has improved tremendously moving forward.

patfanken said:

5.While I watched Luck close the gap every time the Pats took a 2 score lead, it was clear to me that the Colts only moved the ball when he made simply perfect throws, like the first TD to Brazill. He made several very difficult throws over the course of the game, but I always felt that these throws were so difficult that he wouldn't be able to do it throughout the game. That eventually he'd be just a little off and these great throws would become picks...and they did. They actually should have picked Luck off 5 times. There was that time when McCourty and Dennard ended up defending each other and dropping a pick early in the game.

16.Luck's the real deal. He'll get better, and that's a scary thought. The Pats scouted him well, and trapped him a few times. He also needs a better run game. There is just too much pressure on Luck to carry that team. Its too early for him to do it in the Playoffs. This early in Brady's career he wasn't required to do as much as Luck is being forced to do. So for now BB has his number, but that can change.

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Luck throws a deep ball, but he's become too much of a gunslinger, trying to do too much without a defense or running game. Many of his completions were into very tight windows, and most of the long completions had few YAC. I'll generally trade those completions for 4 INTs, and 14 points off of INTs. He needs to learn to be more patient and not try to do too much.

patfanken said:

6.For the most part I thought the secondary played very well. It was very rare that anyone was running free in the secondary. Most of the time, Luck's completions had to be perfect throws against decent to good coverages. In fact the only 2 completions that pissed me off, were the key 3rd down and long completion to #17, just prior to the first Brazil TD. Arrington was there to defend it, but seemed not to know where the receiver was. The other was Brazil's 2nd TD over McCourty, who simply lost his cushion. This play tarnished an other wise solid performance by Devon.

7.This secondary is so much better with a healthy Dennard on the outside. You could really see the difference. I'm almost tempted to use a Ty Law comparison, or a mini-Ty Law comparision. He's very physical, has good ball skills, a nose for the ball, and is a good man to man cover guy. He had excellent position on the first Colt TD, the ball was simply perfectly thrown and the receiver made the catch, despite Dennard's hands right on his arm. You shouldn't blame the DB on those kinds of passes, rather you should tip your cap to the QB and WR (Like THAT's ever going to happen )

8.Steve Gregory disappointed many Pats fans here, by having a very solid and clean game. He had a couple of pass defenses and 6 tackles with no misses. What are the haters ever going to do now. :roll eyes:

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patfanken said:

11.Blount is a guy who hammers teams, but is scary good when he reaches the 2nd level. Ridley is a razor who slashes at defenses. It's a great combination, and one that will travel well if we have to go on the road to Denver. The ground and pound Patriots. Who'da thunk.

This is a complete change of philosophy from what we started the season as. Hell, its been a complete change of philosophy starting 5 games ago when Gronk went out. Can you think of another team that had to make such a drastic change of offensive focus so late in the season, and STILL made it to a conference final?

13 Over 400 yds of total offense, and over 40 points is a decent night, even if it didn't match the sexy passing game we are used to seeing. But this is what our offense has evolved into. We are the ground and pound Patriots, and until Dobson comes back or Thompson can remain healthy, its what we HAVE to be. With no TE or outside WR threat, we are pretty much very limited in the passing game. So this is who we have to be until Gronk comes back and Dobson and Thompkins reach some semblance of health.

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The change of approach wouldn't have happened without Rob Gronkowski's injury, and it may actually benefit the Pats in the playoffs compared to what they've done in the past.

patfanken said:

16.Luck's the real deal. He'll get better, and that's a scary thought. The Pats scouted him well, and trapped him a few times. He also needs a better run game. There is just too much pressure on Luck to carry that team. Its too early for him to do it in the Playoffs. This early in Brady's career he wasn't required to do as much as Luck is being forced to do. So for now BB has his number, but that can change.

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Love your idle thoughts ken but I really have to respond to specific ones to remain coherent.

I will start with this one because of something Belichick said in his pre game interview. When asked about Luck he talked about how good he is now but concluded with "he's going to be a force to deal with" in coming seasons. The reason this stuck with me is because Belichick is a coach who responds to the impediments to his ultimate championship goals, and he responded to the threat Manning posed those hopes by going for a team that can score 40 every week because he knew that getting by the Colts after the rule changes was going to require an offense that could always keep up with the most dangerous offenses in football. Personally i love the way the Patriots are playing right now and I want that nasty, tough, and devastating run game to be a permanent part of their offense, I believe it helps them on both sides of the ball and allows them to win the weekly fist fight, which I have always felt was crucial to winning games and championships. I do think, however, that Belichick is looking at what Luck is going to pose as a challenge with an eye toward continuing to stock up on receiving options for Brady, and another high end TE and more WR threats will be added to their roster. I hope they value their own enough to keep them around as i don't want Blount or Edelman going anywhere, and while i like the rookies i still think more competition needs to be brought in to get the most out of this team. They have a really young D, and while it isn't a finished product by any means I think that Belichick is going to focus more on their offense this offseason with the future match-ups with Andrew Luck in mind.

patfanken said:

15. BTW- here's a thought. Why don't teams when they get the chance to KO from the 50, ever pooch kick it to about the 10 and force the receiving team to return it against a coverage team that has only a 40 yd sprint to reach the ball.

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The receiving team can always call for a fair catch. (Yes, you can FC kickoffs. You just seldom ever see it because there's usually no reason to do so, though that is the reason onside kick attempts are bounced -- once ball hits ground FC not an option). So while they couldn't return the ball, the kicking team would have to give the FC signaler the uninterfered opportunity for the catch. (Unlike a punt, if the signaler fails to make the catch and lets the ball drop, it's live.)

patfanken said:

I have a rules question that's been bothering me since that play. What is the rule on a safety, because it wasn't Ryan that carried the ball into the endzone. It was a Colts defender, who punched the ball from the field of play out of the endzone. For a second I thought they were going to give the ball to the Pats on the 20, first and 10. It was my understanding that it was only a safety if the offensive team brought the ball into the endzone. This never happened.

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The rule is that if the ball goes into the EZ and then OOB without any recovery:
1) If the impetus came from the offense it is a safety.
2) If the impetus came from the defeence it is a touchback and the offence gets the ball 1st-and-10 on its own 20.

The rule further says that on an offensive play the impetus remains with the offense unless the defense gains possession, does an illegal kick or bat, or muffs or legally kicks/bats a ball that is at rest or nearly at rest.

On this play, Colts never had possession and the bat was not illegal, so impetus remained with the offense, hence safety.

Gwedd said:

I absolutely agree that it should have been (imho) a touchback. I also remember watching in awe that Watson play and how pissed I was when the refs refused to rule it a touchback.

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Well, moron Triplette demonstrated his ignorance of rudimentary geometry and physics. Given where Bailey was when the ball came loose and where the ball ended up, it was impossible for it not to have gone into the EZ.

Gwedd said:

I was happy that the Patriots got away with only a safety there, but it's true that the Colts' player knocked the ball through the end zone. I am positive that that should have been ruled a touchback, and it would be really nice to hear from someone about why it wasn't ruled that way.

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Asked and answered in this thread and elsewhere

Uncle Rico said:

I said this in the game thread: When the defending team is penalized after a score, a touchback on the KO should result in the ball going to the 10, not the 20.

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Here's how I would like it to work:

For personal foul/unsportsmanlike penalties on a TD or successful FG, any dead ball foul after the score and before the kickoff, and any penalties on a successful PAT or 2pt conversion, the kicking team has the following options:
1) Have the penalty enforced via the spot of the kickoff. If they do that, a touchback comes out to the 20 like normal. This way the kicking team has the opportunity to essentially make sure there's no chance of any return if that's what they want.
2) Have the penalty enforced at the end of the return. So if it was a 15 yard penalty and the kick is returned to the receiving team's 40, the ball is spotted for play at the receiving team's 25. If there's a touchback, the penalty is enforced from the receiving team's 20, with the usual "half the distance" rule if the penalty is over 10 yards. If the kickoff is returned for a score, the score is negated and the penalty is enforced from the kicking team's goal line.

And obviously if a penalty occurs during an unsuccessful PAT/2PC, the offense would be able to re-do the attempt.