State of the game: Rick Reilly commentary

Tunescribe said:

It seems your tongue poked a hole clear through your cheek with this post. I think the core issue isn't as much a matter of self-determination/freedom of choice as what the new findings involving CTE might mean -- ESPECIALLY regarding choices the athletes themselves might make as medical science learns more.

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You are sooo right - medical science should trump self-determination

Patriot_in_NY said:

You know, I read that piece to, and there is a lot of truth to what he says. But, I still keep coming back to that last couple paragraphs the most.



That may not be so true in days past, but it's certainly true now. Many of these guys are paid VERY WELL, and they know exactly what the risks are. They may minimize them in their minds, but it's hard to ignore they are there. If they make that decision for them and thier families, that is not something I'm prepared to own with them (in the form of guilt).

As humans we have always loved blood sports, from the gladiator days on down to now........ as we will in the future. May not be one of our finer traits, but in the words of the immortal........ "it is what it is". I feel bad for the players of old, and I hate reading the tragic tails of woe as much as anybody, but I'll be up Sunday watching and cheering like I always am......

..... and I'd be lying if I told you I'd feel the least bit guilty about it. Not proud of it mind you..... Just telling it like it is.

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I know it's nitpicky of his analogy, but most gladiators were slaves or criminals.

I'm more comfortable with pro athletes subjecting themselves to an informed risk - especially if the game and technology evolve to minimize the chance of CTE type disease.

The main problem I have was summed up in the PBS Frontline Documentary "League of Denial" when one doctor asked another something to the effect of: "do you know what the ramification of letting this type of information leak to the general public would be? If 10% of mothers in America decided that football was too dangerous for their baby boys, the NFL would be finished."

Regardless of whether you believe that specific fact - I believe that the NFL needs to lead from the front on this issue to protect the millions of youth who try to emulate their heroes and wind up hurt. Biased as it was, the Frontline documentary makes it very difficult to believe that the NFL has acted with regard to anything other than protecting it's owners from liability. Everything else feels secondary.

One poster above railed against lawyers and feminists. I say the opposite. The billionaire owners of the NFL's franchises are absolutely "the best choosers" in our society to use their wealth and power to diminish these risks to all football players. I hope the 700+ million dollar settlement is enough of a punishment to induce this behavior in the owners, but I get the impression it'll be the subtle effect of threads like this, and documentaries like the League of Denial that shifts the tenor of football discussion to the point that football followers will accept nothing less. In the event that the NFL's media influence silences the discussion, I say hold the owners strictly liable for the damage their product causes.

RayClay said:

Get rid of hard shell helmets and people won't want to launch so much.

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I agree RayClay, and get rid of the body armor too. When I was a kid in the 1950's, we were taught to tackle by wrapping up. Nobody I ever knew was knocked out cold, or had a concussion. Sure there were bumps and bruises, black eyes and bloody noses, but nothing like we see today.

olschool said:

And the lawyers will keep litigating until no school district or college can afford liability insurance.

When that happens, the NFL will become professional wrestling with helmets and a ball, because the schools will no longer provide the amateur players.

Organized football better figure out a way to lessen the impact of injuries or it will cease to exist as we know it now.

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Again, I don't think it's as much injuries in general as it is the issue of football collisions leading to long-term brain damage. This is a research area new to medical science. As for injuries in general at the pro level, I think they need to get a better handle on PEDs, especially of the steroid variety. Once players' bodies aren't artificially enhanced pharmaceutically, a lot of soft-tissue injuries will go away.

I would guess that most who participate here regularly love the NFL, as I do. For me, there is nothing quite exactly as satisfying as awakening on Sunday morning and remembering that the Patriots will play today (hopefully at 1:00 because waiting any longer is torture) and that I'll be able to watch all by myself with cold beer and a snack or two. With that said, I find myself conflicted over CTE, rampant injuries and their life-long effects. I really want my NFL game to remain as it is with no further alterations in the name of safety, or other things. I also know that's not a realistic expectation. I hold out hope that advances in equipment, etc. will stem the tide of well-intentioned rule changes, but who knows? The number of players on IR this year is staggering. Some think it's because there aren't enough full-hitting pads practices in camp and others think there are any number of other things contributing. I think the main reason is that these guys now are so big, so fast, so strong and so well-conditioned that more injuries are inevitable, but that's just my take. I'd like to see rosters expanded numbers-wise, with at least all 53 active on game day. At any rate, it's a complex, fertile and thoughtful topic without simple answers.

Bobsyouruncle said:

It's like this, adults can make decisions for themselves- good bad or indifferent. You can make the decision to watch or not but you can be assured that with or without you watching football players will go on playing because that's their own decision. Race car drivers will keep racing, king crab fisherman will keep fishing, base jumpers will keep jumping.

There's plenty of suffering and death in this world by people who have no control over the decisions in their lives. I would propose that the angst over what decisions adults make is misplaced as long as their are people starving, women and children slaughtered, and freedom suppressed. The worlds time and energy would be much better spent trying to help those who have no control over the suffering in their own lives than trying to get a bunch of football players to quit doing something they love.

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The thing is, most of there men started playing the game as uninformed boys (and girls). I have two kids, a girl age 9 and a boy 6. They were both desperate to play football. My girl was the only female playing 8-9 year old tackle football. Two kids on her team had bad concussions. One had one severe enough to induce vomiting and was brought to the emergency room after stabilizing on the field. HE had problems with headaches and light sensitivity for weeks. The six year old was in a flag football. Three kids on my son's 5-6-7 year old team got concussions. Now, they don't wear helmets, but they might move to a karate/boxing style head protection.(I would like this- both of my kids take karate and participate in sparring). In my house, we have a two concussion rule- two concussions in one growing head will mean football is over.

I will let them play next year, but I am not sure that in alignment with my other parenting decisions. I don't let them ride in the car without a seatbelt or booster, kayak without a life vest, or ride without a bike helmet. There is a real questioning of parents and the wisdom our choices which are made with a lot more information than other generations of parents have had when we see a kid laid out on a football field.

On the plus side, since I live in the woods in Maine, they do still get to play dodge ball and tag at school, sled down public golf courses, and skate and snowmobile on frozen lakes.

Jackson 2 said:

I think the main reason is that these guys now are so big, so fast, so strong and so well-conditioned that more injuries are inevitable, but that's just my take.

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As already noted, I think many of these guys are artificially big and strong -- much more so than diet, natural supplementation and weight training enables.

Tunescribe said:

As already noted, I think many of these guys are artificially big and strong -- much more so than diet, natural supplementation and weight training enables.

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No question. I don't know about much more, but that's clearly a contributing factor.

mb6592 said:

You are sooo right - medical science should trump self-determination

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Huh? If you ask me, being informed is important to self-determination.

I'm not suggesting in any way, shape or form that an athlete's right to play football should be taken away due to medical findings. As I said, I'm concerned about what CTE portends for the game in general absent means to control it.

mb6592 said:

You are sooo right - medical science should trump self-determination

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Seat belts, speed limits, motorcycle helmets, booster seats, sanitary needles for tattoos, food inspectors and limited areas for public smoking all say hello.

Oh LOOK!...a herd of white elephants hiding right here in the thread....

Tunescribe said:

Huh? If you ask me, being informed is important to self-determination.

I'm not suggesting in any way, shape or form that an athlete's right to play football should be taken away due to medical findings. As I said, I'm concerned about what CTE portends for the game in general absent means to control it.

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Oh sure, it'll end with just some info for the athlete - just like the studies that banned dodgeball, tag, ice skating on ponds, unguided horseback riding, smoking in restaurants that chose to allow smoking....

rabidfireweasel said:

Seat belts, speed limits, motorcycle helmets, booster seats, sanitary needles for tattoos, food inspectors and limited areas for public smoking all say hello.

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Seat belts, modern speed limits, motorcycle helmets and limited smoking areas are all abominations that began with constitutionally dubious actions taken by the fed, and everyone who helped get them installed should have been arrested and tried for treason.


Sadly, the U.S. has become a bubble wrap society.

Tunescribe said:

As already noted, I think many of these guys are artificially big and strong -- much more so than diet, natural supplementation and weight training enables.

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My son is forty years old, 6'5"-260 lbs. That's just food and genetics, not drugs or weight training. People are just bigger now than they used to be, and if my son ran into me full tilt, he'd probably be burying me the next day.

I don't think modern science can keep this game in business. They're going to have to change the way it's played, which is already underway.

ForThoseAboutToRock said:

One poster above railed against lawyers and feminists. I say the opposite. The billionaire owners of the NFL's franchises are absolutely "the best choosers" in our society to use their wealth and power to diminish these risks to all football players. I hope the 700+ million dollar settlement is enough of a punishment to induce this behavior in the owners, but I get the impression it'll be the subtle effect of threads like this, and documentaries like the League of Denial that shifts the tenor of football discussion to the point that football followers will accept nothing less. In the event that the NFL's media influence silences the discussion, I say hold the owners strictly liable for the damage their product causes.

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************, by the 1980's who the f--k didn't know that smoking was bad for you, or smashing two helmeted heads together could cause brain injury, or skating in a pond could cause ankle injuries or cause you to fall through if the ice that wasn't frozen, or that you could get injured if you fell off a horse - all activities that are now banned in our age of enlightenment and were considered routine by generations who engaged in them - not because they were ignorant to the risks associated with these activitiites - but because they weren't banned by our increasingly paternalistic society.

mb6592 said:

Oh sure, it'll end with just some info for the athlete - just like the dodgeballers, taggers, ice skaters, horseback riders, smokers, huge 7-11 slushie drinkers.... You know these groups are aware of the dangers and yet more studies - to what end?

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I don't know what the alternative is other than resolving to remain ignorant. But you tell me: do you think ANYTHING will EVER stop football in places like Tuscaloosa, Dallas, South Bend and Green Bay? I sure don't. And I'm sure the same can be said for thousands of towns across America where high school football is a community way of life.

Deus Irae said:

Seat belts, modern speed limits, motorcycle helmets and limited smoking areas are all abominations that began with constitutionally dubious actions taken by the fed, and everyone who helped get them installed should have been arrested and tried for treason.


Sadly, the U.S. has become a bubble wrap society.

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Damn, wasn't sure what side you'd end up on given your profession. I am now a permanent fan - regardless of your occasional egocentricity.

Tunescribe said:

I don't know what the alternative is other than resolving to remain ignorant.

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My God Tunesscribe, don't you know how arrogant that statement is?

Tunescribe said:

As already noted, I think many of these guys are artificially big and strong -- much more so than diet, natural supplementation and weight training enables.

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This, for me, is the issue. There's a (weak) argument that people coming in to the NFL can make a rational decision about the risks and rewards of PEDs and concussion, but a bunch of high school kids from desperately underprivileged backgrounds, recruited to make money for colleges on the slim chance that they will make it in the pros?

When the Roman Empire started to grow and Rome became a more powerful city, a top government position became more and more attractive. Therefore, more and more ambitious men got involved in government. These men believed that Rome would be better served by one man governing the city and empire, as opposed to a group of elected officials. These sole rulers were called emperors. The story behind the first emperor involves one of Ancient Rome’s most famous stories.

Julius Caesar wanted to control all of Rome and its empire. This would have led to the end of the system of government used in Ancient Rome for many years. When making a speech in the Senate to support his belief in a one-man rule, Caesar was murdered by Brutus who wanted to keep the old way going. This murder did not stop the problem as Caesar’s supporters started a civil war to try to force their wishes onto Rome. The war was long and costly. Exhaustion led to many Romans supporting Augustus, Caesar’s nephew. To many people he seemed to obvious choice to end the chaos Rome had descended into. Augustus was seen as a strong ruler and he became emperor in 27 BC, bringing to an end the republic of Rome.

Next stop...Caligula Hotel & Day Spa....

50 years ago the market would have sorted this out...today?...heh..."we must DO SOMETHING about this violent game!!!!! It's destroying America!!!!"....let me just say from my obviously stupid perspective called my life....if I did TODAY what my friends and I growing up did as a matter of course through our teens and twenties, I'd STILL be locked up. You want to "get involved!" and make "changes!" to something...start with the friggin' teenie girls driving the interstates texting "cray cray" to their air headed friends while driving 80 mph behind the wheels of 2 ton SUVs.