World Series - Red Sox vs Cardinals

Originally Posted by ausbacker View Post
With the greatest of respect to you, I have no interest soliciting your opinion when it comes to baseball Tune given your attitude toward baseball and the Red Sox.

Regardless, you can't say I'm wrong. The umpires were immediate and unanimous in the call. The runner was obstructed. Period

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And the umpire who made the call, Jim Joyce, said he was on the chalk, JJ wasn't even looking at the play when it happened, and no, it wasn't intentional but it doesn't matter, it's the umps discretion and he blew this one

chicowalker said:

Actually, if you're lying prone like that and go to get up, you're feet do usually come up.

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No, not like that! You push your upper body off the ground first and he was just lying there. He wasn't trying to get up. Assuming he knew where the ball was, you pretty much can't blame him for trying to impede the runner.

cmasspatsfan said:

And the umpire who made the call, Jim Joyce, said he was on the chalk, JJ wasn't even looking at the play when it happened, and no, it wasn't intentional but it doesn't matter, it's the umps discretion and he blew this one

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Looking at that still photo I'm now pissed. Hey Craig,the baseline is 3 ft to your right. Try using it next time instead of the grass of the infield.

I change my stance on the call now. This blows.

Tunescribe said:

Regardless, you can't say I'm wrong. The umpires were immediate and unanimous in the call. The runner was obstructed. Period.

I don't think so. But I'll check around just to make sure and report back.

Be careful Icy, you don't want to miss the game tomorrow.

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I can say you're wrong but it would lead to a pissing match that isn't needed. It's a lousy call, it was a lousy interpretation of the call, Joyce is known for blowing calls and DeMuth is equally horrible.

Listen, the Sox blew this game with poor execution and questionable tactics but that doesn't take away from the fact that the umpires crapped the bed in another key moment of a key series.

Tunescribe said:

No, not like that! You push your upper body off the ground first and he was just lying there. He wasn't trying to get up. Assuming he knew where the ball was, you pretty much can't blame him for trying to impede the runner.

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No, he pushed up, too.

The problem is the rule. It doesn't matter at all whether he pushed his upper body up, his legs up or just lay there. If the runner trips over him it's technically obstruction.

Patriot Missile said:

Looking at that still photo I'm now pissed. Hey Craig,the baseline is 3 ft to your right. Try using it next time instead of the grass of the infield.

I change my stance on the call now. This blows.

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I don't think the baseline even matters, fwiw.

cmasspatsfan said:

And the umpire who made the call, Jim Joyce, said he was on the chalk, JJ wasn't even looking at the play when it happened, and no, it wasn't intentional but it doesn't matter, it's the umps discretion and he blew this one

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Someone needs to get this to the Boston media "tough guys" like Shank, with a question about why they were AWOL about this at the umps press conference post-game. This puts the absolute lie to what Joyce and Hirschbeck said. It's Ed Armbrister all over again, for us old timers :enranged:

ausbacker said:

I can say you're wrong but it would lead to a pissing match that isn't needed. It's a lousy call, it was a lousy interpretation of the call, Joyce is known for blowing calls and DeMuth is equally horrible.

Listen, the Sox blew this game with poor execution and questionable tactics but that doesn't take away from the fact that the umpires crapped the bed in another key moment of a key series.

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If that call isn't made they're out of the inning, despite the execution and tactics.

This is just like the Pats / Jets game. The team's play and the call / rule are two separate things. related but separate.

Sox played badly enough to lose, but they also played well enough to possibly win, were it not for a probably accurate but extremely unusual call of a questionable rule.

Saltalamacchia blew it. Let's not lose sight of that. That terrible throw to third base should not have happened. That's what irks me most.

1st mistake - Not replacing Workman with Napoli
2nd mistake - Not starting the inning with Koji
3rd mistake - Saltalamachia went selfish trying to get all the glories with 2 elimination, bad judgement, bad throw.

ausbacker said:

I can say you're wrong but it would lead to a pissing match that isn't needed. It's a lousy call, it was a lousy interpretation of the call, Joyce is known for blowing calls and DeMuth is equally horrible.

Listen, the Sox blew this game with poor execution and questionable tactics but that doesn't take away from the fact that the umpires crapped the bed in another key moment of a key series.

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Your allegiance is clouding your perspective, which is understandable. The umps were immediate and unanimous in the call. The replays (multiple angles) confirm it and even Farrell conceded obstruction. The only thing making this "controversial" is its rarity in deciding a ball game. Piss away if you want, I don't care.

Tunescribe said:

Your allegiance is clouding your perspective, which is understandable. The umps were immediate and unanimous in the call. The replays (multiple angles) confirm it and even Farrell conceded obstruction. The only thing making this "controversial" is its rarity in deciding a ball game. Piss away if you want, I don't care.

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Why the trolling?

You don't like the Sox, why screw with fellow Pats fans on the board who are pissed off about a controversial call -- much like Pats fans on the board were pissed off about a controversial call Sunday.

chicowalker said:

Why the trolling?

You don't like the Sox, why screw with fellow Pats fans on the board who are pissed off about a controversial call -- much like Pats fans on the board were pissed off about a controversial call Sunday.

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I'm not "screwing" with anyone, just talking about the umps' call. Actually, this is an interesting example of allegiance/emotional investment affecting perspective. In the case of the Pats' call Sunday, I had to watch the replay four times (three in slow motion) before seeing that Jones pushed. The question then becomes to what "degree" an infraction must be committed to (1) be called and (2) be called at a crucial juncture deciding a contest's outcome. If you really want to compare the two, tonight's infraction appeared much more blatant.

Ironic that the Armbrister play was a non call and this was an ump trying to be a hero, of course all the other umps will stick up for him whether he's right or wrong, that's what they do.
What irks me the most is JJ said the runner was RIGHT ON THE CHALK, no he wasn't, he was going towards the pitchers mound. I understand the call and sometimes it can screw you no matter what you do but this was an instance where that call shouldn't have been made.
Sucks but they better shore up the D if they want to win this thing, they almost stole one tonight.

I don't actually dispute that the call was a legit judgment. My issue is with the call evidently being made by someone who represented his judgment in a way that is not supported by the video. In that situation where that call absolutely ends a game, especially in a World Series game, in my opinion he should be absolutely sure that his judgment is correct. Given that he did was obviously watching Craig and Middlebrooks throughout their entire entanglement, I simply don't see how he can be absolutely sure he made the right call. With that said, I realize that he is not really obligated to do anything more than he did, which is to make the call based on whatever he believes he did see.

If I'm not mistaken, he is in line to ump at home plate in Game 6 if hopefully there is one, so best for the Sox to play it cool on this one.

Tunescribe said:

I'm not "screwing" with anyone, just talking about the umps' call. Actually, this is an interesting example of allegiance/emotional investment affecting perspective. In the case of the Pats' call Sunday, I had to watch the replay four times (three in slow motion) before seeing that Jones pushed. The question then becomes to what "degree" an infraction must be committed to (1) be called and (2) be called at a crucial juncture deciding a contest's outcome. If you really want to compare the two, tonight's infraction appeared much more blatant.

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It sounded like you were, but if you say so...

Both calls were correct in terms of interpreting the rule book in light of what occurred on the field -- "blatant" doesn't really factor in.

Otoh, one call significantly impacted a regular season game. One absolutely decided a World Series game.

Tunescribe said:

Your allegiance is clouding your perspective, which is understandable. The umps were immediate and unanimous in the call. The replays (multiple angles) confirm it and even Farrell conceded obstruction. The only thing making this "controversial" is its rarity in deciding a ball game. Piss away if you want, I don't care.

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Did you expect Farrell was going to disagree with the umpires and push them further off side? Craig was nowhere near the chalk. It was a bad call however, the problem was Saltalamacchia and Middlebrooks first and foremost.

If any positive can be taken from this, hopefully Ross starts for now on, like Nava over Gomes.

This call was absolute bull**** and a total screw job if I have ever seen one...They say that obstruction is intentional or non-intentional, where the **** is will supposed to go when he is lying on his stomach...They gave that game to the cards with an absolute terrible judgement call....Joyce should never ump again as he is ******* pitiful...

What a stoopid throw by Saltine.

This is such a weird series. Sox pitching has looked crappy and theyre making uncharacteristic mistakes on defense. That was the type of game that will come back to haunt you. Must win tonight for Boston, because if they dont, this series wont make it back to Fenway.

STL is too good in that park if it goes 3 - 1.