Welcoming back the "Old" New England Patriots

VrabelJr said:

When is everyone going to step out of denial and realize the "Indianapolis Patriots" is how you win the modern NFL? Bill Poilan changed the game and BB went and adapted (on offense). Our offense losing key players don't put us back to our early 2000s days. It puts us behind in the modern NFL. The only thing that will get us back to early 2000s form will be an elite defense.

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Might be how you win in the REGULAR season but it's not how you win in the playoffs. In the playoffs the refs swallow their whistles and allow good tough passing D to be played.
The Patriots going 11 - 5 and having to gut out wins via the running game, via tough defense, via playing good hard nosed ball management/clock management football will put them in a better position to win in the playoffs than going 14 - 2 with the greatest show on turf.
This team having to struggle and scrape to win games will make them a tougher and more battle tested team going into the playoffs.
That is a GOOD thing.
That is what I'm referring to when I say "Old" New England Patriot football.

RhodyPatriot said:

Might be how you win in the REGULAR season but it's not how you win in the playoffs. In the playoffs the refs swallow their whistles and allow good tough passing D to be played.
The Patriots going 11 - 5 and having to gut out wins via the running game, via tough defense, via playing good hard nosed ball management/clock management football will put them in a better position to win in the playoffs than going 14 - 2 with the greatest show on turf.
This team having to struggle and scrape to win games will make them a tougher and more battle tested team going into the playoffs.
That is a GOOD thing.
That is what I'm referring to when I say "Old" New England Patriot football.

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Did you happen to see our regular season records when we went to Super Bowls in the TB/BB era?

2001: 11-5
2003: 14-2
2004: 14-2
2007: 16-0
2011: 13-3

Ever since the Packers and Giants have come along and won Super Bowls with 10-6 and 9-7 records everyone acts like that's the way you go about doing it. News flash: It isn't. Your logic is so completely off it's terrible and it's incredibly results oriented.

VrabelJr said:

Did you happen to see our regular season records when we went to Super Bowls in the TB/BB era?

2001: 11-5
2003: 14-2
2004: 14-2
2007: 16-0
2011: 13-3

Ever since the Packers and Giants have come along and won Super Bowls with 10-6 and 9-7 records everyone acts like that's the way you go about doing it. News flash: It isn't. Your logic is so completely off it's terrible and it's incredibly results oriented.

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I see this 2013-2014 team potentially being very much like 2001, a work in progress.
The Patriots of 2003 and 2004 were the Dynastic Patriots. Greatness!
The Patriot teams of 2007 and 2011 were out of balance. Top heavy with the offense. Beaten both years in the SB by a gritty, tough NY Giant team.
You cannot look at every Patriot SB team as the same type of team because they weren't.
It's not so much the won/loss record. It's the style of play I'm talking about. The Patriots in recent years have had gaudy won/loss records and record breaking O numbers yet have lacked grit and toughness.
Give me an 11 - 5 record with a tough gritty team over a 14 - 2 NE Colt team any day of the week.
It's not the record. It's the style of play.

Nunchucks said:

Do not be so ridiculous. If the vikings had a real qb they would have made it past the first round of the playoffs. A commitment to the run does not take the ball out of brady's hands. It just means that yeams will have to be prepared to stop it, which creates space in the passing game.

As for other teams scoring at will and the pats not able to match...whatever dude. Stop pouting. .

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When is the last time a team BUILD to Stop the RUN and Run the Ball won the SB?.

Our defense has been in the bottom 2 last years , no matter how to look at it. i do not see it become Top 10 in 1 season.

satz said:

When is the last time a team BUILD to Stop the RUN and Run the Ball won the SB?

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The Ravens, four months ago?

satz said:

When is the last time a team BUILD to Stop the RUN and Run the Ball won the SB?.

Our defense has been in the bottom 2 last years , no matter how to look at it. i do not see it become Top 10 in 1 season.

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Did I miss where someone was touting a better RUN defense? I'm asking since I'm ignoring a debate and one of them MAY have said that.

If not, good job arguing against what no one has said - want a job at a local newspaper?

RhodyPatriot said:

The razzle dazzle, greatest show on turf, we are the new Colts NE Patriots are all done. Finished.

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!! :singing:

The 2013 - 2014 version of the NE Patriots will look like the dynastic NE Patriots from the early 2000's.

Ball control, clock control offense. Play action. Run the ball.

Defense that will turn the ball over, defense that will consciously take ownership of this team's success. In recent years the D has played 2nd fiddle and has in many ways been along for the ride because of the record setting offense.

That is no longer the case.

The D will be an equal partner with the O on this team and I believe they will embrace that as they haven't (had to) in a long time.

You can bet Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are not happy with this off-season of tumult but both are completely energized and excited by the challenge of it.

Wish the season were starting tomorrow.

I'm very excited about this team this year.

Gonna be watching some old fashioned New England Patriot football.

Can't wait.

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Sure, this could be one of the paths BB and co. take to compensate for the loss of AH (among other things). And this is not to say they can't do it, however, the one factor I would bring up: The Patriots of back then had a method of winning based on the strengths of the personnel/the team. Today, one would argue, a similar method of winning would be based on the weakness of the personnel/the team. Put another way, back then they wanted to do it. Today they would have to do it. That's a big difference.

Look, I'd love if the running game is emphasized. We have a RB group that have shown, at times, they can pile up the yards. I hope the fall of AH and what it says to BB and JM means they are looking at the OL saying 'who will smash mouth their blocking assignment and let the RB get through the OL'. I'm not saying it is that easy but if we could do that fairly successfully (and I think we can)? TFB and a fair group of receivers will equal a good winning percentage.....maybe even one that is better prepared for certain teams we could face in the playoffs. (pie in the sky? )

satz said:

When is the last time a team BUILD to Stop the RUN and Run the Ball won the SB?.

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jmt57 said:

The Ravens, four months ago?

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Um, Rice had 59 yards against San Fran in the SB (3.0 ypc), and just 48 against NE (2.5 ypc). They didn't win in the playoffs b/c of the run.

You wanna know what did work for Balt in the playoffs? The constant succession of deep balls thrown by Flacco. It was far and away their biggest success on offense. The biggest story. Oh, you wanna know one reason why? Because they fired their old OC (for being too conservative, at that) and brought on Jim Caldwell. Remember him? He was at Indy. He spent 10 years working on Indy's offensive staff w/ Peyton, ect. Guess what he did in Balt? He installed a package that looked virtually identical to what Indy (and now Den) ran with Peyton Manning: 3 wide, one TE, singleback, no huddle; very simple passing concepts, too (I wrote about it here). Baltimore constantly went to this in the playoffs. It worked.

So, yeah. Balt has been "built to run" for a long time. Bit it wasn't until they started spreading it out, that Flacco came alive and they won it all.

jmt57 said:

The Ravens, four months ago?

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The Ravens were 11th in Rushing Offense and 20th in Rushing Defense. Try again.

Am I remembering right? Did Baltimore's rush D come alive in the playoffs after being MIA all season? If so, that's what the "Ravens four months ago" thing might be referencing -- not the regular season performance.

PatsFanInVa said:

Am I remembering right? Did Baltimore's rush D come alive in the playoffs after being MIA all season? If so, that's what the "Ravens four months ago" thing might be referencing -- not the regular season performance.

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No.

They gave up 182 on the ground (6.3 per) to San Fran in the SB.

Edit: and...
108 yards vs NE @ 3.9 ypc (meh).
125 yards vs DEN @ 3.0 ypc (good)
152 yards vs IND @ 5.2 ypc (awful)

Okay, my bad. Yes, the 2012 Baltimore Ravens were obviously not the same team they were in previous years. Mea culpa.

That being said, is it all black and white? Is it really as simple as saying that a good running game doesn't matter any more, a good run defense doesn't matter either, and that the only important factor is the passing game? Is it possible that there are various shades of gray in between, and that there is more than one way to achieve the objective of winning a championship?

For example, the 49ers had a pretty good run defense and relied more on their running game than their passing game. I would say that considering how close that Super Bowl game was along with a somewhat controversial ending, I would not write off that philosophy as being one that can never win a championship in today's game. The Seattle Seahawks would be a good second example, and Denver did pretty well last year with a good run defense and decent running game too.

jmt57 said:

Okay, my bad. Yes, the 2012 Baltimore Ravens were obviously not the same team they were in previous years. Mea culpa.

That being said, is it all black and white? Is it really as simple as saying that a good running game doesn't matter any more, a good run defense doesn't matter either, and that the only important factor is the passing game? Is it possible that there are various shades of gray in between, and that there is more than one way to achieve the objective of winning a championship?

For example, the 49ers had a pretty good run defense and relied more on their running game than their passing game. I would say that considering how close that Super Bowl game was along with a somewhat controversial ending, I would not write off that philosophy as being one that can never win a championship in today's game. The Seattle Seahawks would be a good second example, and Denver did pretty well last year with a good run defense and decent running game too.

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What!? You have this utterly bass-ackwards. Buddy, you are putting words in people's mouths for disagreeing with the OP. Go read the OP's first post. Go read what people, like me, are actually disagreeing with.

The razzle dazzle, greatest show on turf, we are the new Colts NE Patriots are all done. Finished.
Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The 2013 - 2014 version of the NE Patriots will look like the dynastic NE Patriots from the early 2000's.
Ball control, clock control offense. Play action. Run the ball.

Yeah. The OP is the one trying to dismiss the Pats great passing attack. He's dismissing it as though it were nothing more than "razzle dazzle." He claimed a run game was more important. He liked that the Pats won't be as good at throwing. He claimed that this is how you win a SB. Utter crap. People like me stood up to this nonsense and pointed out that the passing attack in the NFL is more important than ever. It is. Go look it up. Later, you brought up a point (that got shot down) about Baltimore'd run/run D. It wasn't true. They won on the deep ball in the playoffs (due to a "razzle dazzle" Colts coordinator, at that). So, pointing out that passing>rushing does not mean that rushing "doesn't matter" at all, or whatever. It doesn't matter as much as passing, by a large degree. That's a fact. But doesn't mean anyone is arguing the words that you just tried to put in their mouth (that it doesn't matter at all); go take that nonsense someplace else....

Brady doesn't have the arm to execute the Joe Flaccid chuck & duck offense, nor the talent at receiver either.

If the Pats are unable - or unwilling - to run successfully, especially with < 3 ytg, then there is no way a
hopefully improved defense will be able to compensate for all those points & TOP minutes lost.

The question then becomes: will Bill, Skippy & Brady rather lose their way than win a different way?

And I don't see what our run defense has to do with what we need to do on offense. We need to improve
our pass defense, first & foremost.

Oh yes, and Sign Vonta Leach, Now.