Is it time to call Brandon Lloyd yet ?

i still think he will be back

If BB wants to fill his quota for bipolar WRs who lack the ability to separate and get deep, then either drop the ball or quickly run out of bounds to have a pitiful YAC stat, then yes, Brandon Lloyd is exactly the type of guy for that job, regardless of how many passes he caught, didn't catch or didn't gain YAC for last year.

JoeSixPat said:

If BB wants to fill his quota for bipolar WRs who lack the ability to separate and get deep, then either drop the ball or quickly run out of bounds to have a pitiful YAC stat, then yes, Brandon Lloyd is exactly the type of guy for that job, regardless of how many passes he caught, didn't catch or didn't gain YAC for last year.

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Oh the horror, I hate moving the chains

Yet again, which receivers that are available are going to come in and be more productive?

Snake Eyes said:

Oh the horror, I hate moving the chains

Yet again, which receivers that are available are going to come in and be more productive?

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Dude's a JAG. This team is better off trying to develop a younger WR. Even if he's only 80% of Lloyd, you have the potential of him surpassing him next year.

DocHoliday said:

Dude's a JAG. This team is better off trying to develop a younger WR. Even if he's only 80% of Lloyd, you have the potential of him surpassing him next year.

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Hmmm, and I always thought the best players were the ones who play? Yes, I love your idea of letting someone who isn't as good play because they might be better down the road

Snake Eyes said:

Hmmm, and I always thought the best players were the ones who play? Yes, I love your idea of letting someone who isn't as good play because they might be better down the road

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Actually while I have sung Lloyds praises a couple of times here, a poster on this forum did an extremely thorough breakdown of Lloyd's last year. It showed his targets and reception percentage, and YAC etc. The data showed that Lloyd was a lot worse than he looked and worse than what his stats showed especially when compared to his counterparts.

I believe that the bottom line was that he got a lot of targets and really diddnt do anything that anyone else couldn't have done with the opportunities. I would take him back for familiarity sake as a possession guy but we already know he is a headcase and we dont need it.

...brrrnnnnnng...brrrnnnng...*click"...hello??...yes...hello, is this the South Pole?? it is?...great!...say, I was wondering if you could help us out back here in New England...we're wondering if you've seen Brandon Lloyd hanging around the survival tent recently...uh huh...oh, you haven't??...but you DO have a penguin that flops to the ice every time you throw him a fish???...hmmmm...I'll get back to you on that....

later on that day.....

....brrrnng....brrrrrrnnng...*click*...hello??....yes...is this the North Pole?...it is?...well, how are things up there, Ernie??...busy busy busy, eh?...say, Ernie..have you or any of the other elves seen Brandon Lloyd up there?...no?...but there's a bi-polar bear stealing Santa's stockings and threatening Rudolph the redneck reindeer?....sorry to hear that....take care...oh..and remember...a hooker in a pear tree next Christmas, OK pal???...yeah...thanks....


well folks,it might be time to call Brandon but by the looks of it he's nowhere to be found....

Bruins29 said:

Actually while I have sung Lloyds praises a couple of times here, a poster on this forum did an extremely thorough breakdown of Lloyd's last year. It showed his targets and reception percentage, and YAC etc. The data showed that Lloyd was a lot worse than he looked and worse than what his stats showed especially when compared to his counterparts.

I believe that the bottom line was that he got a lot of targets and really diddnt do anything that anyone else couldn't have done with the opportunities. I would take him back for familiarity sake as a possession guy but we already know he is a headcase and we dont need it.

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I basically just copied the stats from Ian, who posted a story on the main page. It showed a breakdown of L, middle, and R attempts; along with a completion percentage and # of overall attempts etc. I agree fully that it definitely showed a weakness that needed to be addressed. A lot of posters keep bringing up the fact that he made 70+ catches, but I don't see that much difference to Deion Branch's stats the year before. The real only difference being that Brandon Llyod was targeted 130 times last year:

51 catches 702 yds 13.8 ave 5 TD's (Branch 2011)

74 catches 911 yds 12.3 ave 4 TD's (Llyod 2012)

That said, I'd still consider Llyod for a depth spot or at the very least--insurance as a WR3 or WR4. I wouldn't mind him at all taking over Branch's role that we've seen in the past since he has the familiarity with the scheme and did have some rapport with Brady. As I said earlier, my main concern and potential 'dealbreaker' to this getting done would be how much they expect Llyod to contribute + obvious value/compensation. Brandon Llyod may very well have bigger ideas for himself as someone's WR2 again, who knows?

Then there's the whispers of him being a bit of a pain and hard to manage etc, so we really don't know how much/little that may come into play either, although one would think that they'd be okay with it for the right price since they reportedly attempted to retain him for lesser pay.

randomk1 said:

Considering his production you would have to think that it is a big enough of an issue.

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I think there may be more of a grey area to Llyod's production last year than maybe we'd initially realize, or else they likely wouldn't have gotten rid of both him and Welker at the same time.

I don't think it'd be fair to say that he didn't produce, because he caught 74 balls; but I also don't think it's fair to act like it was quite as good as he appeared by that statline either. 130 targets is a lot of looks, and there were some very obvious weaknesses in his game.

In the end it appears that they were fine with him staying on to assume a lesser role with lesser production, but that he wanted to gamble on himself--which we can all respect.

I agree with the sentiment he never really looked like a good fit and had a bad attitude, but the way people on this site are totally dismissive of his production last year totally baffles me. 900 yards is 900 yards, something I'd be thrilled to see Dobson, Jenkins, Jones, or any outside receiver on the roster get this year.

Bruins29 said:

Actually while I have sung Lloyds praises a couple of times here, a poster on this forum did an extremely thorough breakdown of Lloyd's last year. It showed his targets and reception percentage, and YAC etc. The data showed that Lloyd was a lot worse than he looked and worse than what his stats showed especially when compared to his counterparts.

I believe that the bottom line was that he got a lot of targets and really diddnt do anything that anyone else couldn't have done with the opportunities. I would take him back for familiarity sake as a possession guy but we already know he is a headcase and we dont need it.

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How many of those targets were Brady throwing the ball away and were attributed to Lloyd because he was the outside receiver on that side? How many were simply bad throws by Brady? Be careful when you look at statistics, they seldom provide context.

As for anyone else being able to do what Lloyd did, how many receivers have we brought in that haven't been able to do what Lloyd did? Ocho, Taylor Price, Tiquan Underwood, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, etc

They haven't done what Lloyd did because they couldnt.

Keep in mind that last season was Lloyd's first with Brady, it usually takes receivers some time to develop really good chemistry with their QB, this should be taken into account when judging Lloyd.

Snake Eyes said:

How many of those targets were Brady throwing the ball away and were attributed to Lloyd because he was the outside receiver on that side? How many were simply bad throws by Brady? Be careful when you look at statistics, they seldom provide context.

As for anyone else being able to do what Lloyd did, how many receivers have we brought in that haven't been able to do what Lloyd did? Ocho, Taylor Price, Tiquan Underwood, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, etc

They haven't done what Lloyd did because they couldnt.

Keep in mind that last season was Lloyd's first with Brady, it usually takes receivers some time to develop really good chemistry with their QB, this should be taken into account when judging Lloyd.

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You are telling me something I preached more than anyone here when people started BL bashing. I always said his performance on his contract was a bargain. But someone did a ton of work to show what the true numbers meant and it was not as impressive as it looked. Try to find it.

I would take him back. Guy can play and knows the system but I dont run the team

Snake Eyes said:

Hmmm, and I always thought the best players were the ones who play? Yes, I love your idea of letting someone who isn't as good play because they might be better down the road

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We do it all the time. We just did it with Wes Welker.

Otherwise you'll never have younger players.

After this season, people on this board will be more appreciative of a #3/#4 receiving option that caught 74 passes and 911 yards.

Outside of Amendola, Hernandez and Gronkowski we'll be lucky to have anybody else with more than 500 yards receiving.

VrabelJr said:

After this season, people on this board will be more appreciative of a #3/#4 receiving option that caught 74 passes and 911 yards.

Outside of Amendola, Hernandez and Gronkowski we'll be lucky to have anybody else with more than 500 yards receiving.

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Great point. I find it highly unlikely someone like, say, Donald Jones could put up 67 more yards with Brady than he did with Fitzpatrick.

DocHoliday said:

We do it all the time. We just did it with Wes Welker.

Otherwise you'll never have younger players.

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Agreed and Amendola has been on the field working with the quarterback and by all accounts improving his chemistry with the franhise qb.

The young guys need to show they have the potential and they need to be hungry to get better right away. Dobson and Boyce are dinged up and we do not know how bad the injuries are. Even assuming the injuries to the new guys would keep anyone, even the super tough player such as a Wes Welker off the field, at a certain time you need to say the train has moved from the station and it is to late for a rookie to catch up to where they need to be this season particularly in an elite offense like the Pats. At that time you bring in the best vet available and to me that seems to be Lloyd. When you are dealing with rookies and an open free agency market the time to move may sooner than what is "fair" to the players.

DocHoliday said:

We do it all the time. We just did it with Wes Welker.

Otherwise you'll never have younger players.

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I'm not sure that pointing to one really stupid decision in order to defend other decisions as smart ones is the way to go.

Deus Irae said:

I'm not sure that pointing to one really stupid decision in order to defend other decisions as smart ones is the way to go.

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Kind of premature to call it a "really stupid decision."

I'm all for bringing Lloyd back if Belichick and McDaniels aren't confident in this receiving staff. I didn't want him cut, but I can see why they did it.

supafly said:

I basically just copied the stats from Ian, who posted a story on the main page. It showed a breakdown of L, middle, and R attempts; along with a completion percentage and # of overall attempts etc. I agree fully that it definitely showed a weakness that needed to be addressed. A lot of posters keep bringing up the fact that he made 70+ catches, but I don't see that much difference to Deion Branch's stats the year before. The real only difference being that Brandon Llyod was targeted 130 times last year:

51 catches 702 yds 13.8 ave 5 TD's (Branch 2011)

74 catches 911 yds 12.3 ave 4 TD's (Llyod 2012)

That said, I'd still consider Llyod for a depth spot or at the very least--insurance as a WR3 or WR4. I wouldn't mind him at all taking over Branch's role that we've seen in the past since he has the familiarity with the scheme and did have some rapport with Brady. As I said earlier, my main concern and potential 'dealbreaker' to this getting done would be how much they expect Llyod to contribute + obvious value/compensation. Brandon Llyod may very well have bigger ideas for himself as someone's WR2 again, who knows?

Then there's the whispers of him being a bit of a pain and hard to manage etc, so we really don't know how much/little that may come into play either, although one would think that they'd be okay with it for the right price since they reportedly attempted to retain him for lesser pay.

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Unless there are drops you can't blame completion percentage on the target. He doesn't chose to be thrown to.
There are a number of variables that would affect that, including the length of the throw (if player A is running routes 10-30 yards downfield and player B 1-10 there will be a dramatic difference in comp % that has nothing to do with the receiver).
Another is the QB decision of whether the receiver is open. Qbs throw to open receivers when they reach them in progression. If the definition of open is different from one player to another, the results will be different.
This is also a factor of the routes run as well.

It seems wrong to me to say Lloyd should have done more with his targets unless he dropped the pass. What you are saying is if Brady thought he was open and threw a bad pass, or a defensed pass that detracts from the catches Lloyd made, and that just doesnt jive with me.

Targets are not determined in advance. You have to show your QB you are open to be the target. Again, drops aside, you can't really blame the receiver for the amount of incomplete passes thrown in his direction.