Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History

bagwell368 · Jun 6, 2013

The Brandon Five said:
Fourth best playoff record.

Third highest win percentage in history (overall). Record with Patriots is highest in history.

Only coach to have four seasons with 14 wins or more.

Only coach to have five seasons with 13 wins or more.

First coach to have nine straight seasons with 10 or more wins.

Most of the Coaches in consideration had regular seasons of 10, 12, and 14 games. It's hard to win 14 when you play 10.

OTOH, at least half of Parcells votes should go to BB. Parcelles was an innovator in three ways:

1. He recognized coaching talent, hired them, and delegated to them
2. He made his thinly veiled (hell not veiled at all) contempt of the media work for him as entertainment.
3. He talked off the record like a broken firehose with members of the media, who in thanks stoked his image/myth.

bagwell368 · Jun 6, 2013

Without steroids, Noll is nowhere near this list.

Shula has no business in front of BB.

Walsh gets points for what happened after he left. IMO, in 20 years, BB will be put on the same level as Walsh, or a smidge ahead if he wins another SB (or whomever follows him with most of his guys in hand) - AND - s**gate and the Giants SB's fade a bit.

patriotsdynasty12189 · Jun 6, 2013

Who cares?

patriotsdynasty12189 · Jun 6, 2013

Like seriously what kind of effect does ESPN saying BB is the 7th coach of all time really have on you?

bagwell368 · Jun 6, 2013

patriotsdynasty12189 said:
Like seriously what kind of effect does ESPN saying BB is the 7th coach of all time really have on you?

This is a site to discuss NFL and Patriots issues, including historical rating.

If you are not interested in this topic- as I am not interested in a large majority of the threads here - why do you feel your negating opinion is precious to any of us? All this sort of thing proves is that churlish boring posters are a drag.

goheels22002 · Jun 6, 2013

Belichick is the only active coach in the top 10 so he can still do something about his ranking. He's 9th all-time in total wins, and 3rd in playoff wins (18) behind Shula (19) and Landry (20).

Coaches, Records, and Coaching Totals - Pro-Football-Reference.com

He will pass Dan Reeves and Chuck Noll for certain this year to move into 7th place, and with 13 wins he can catch Marty Schottenheimer at 200 wins for 6th all-time. (That still blows my mind that Marty Schottenheimer is 6th all-time behind Shula, Halas, Landry, Lambeau and Paul Brown.)

Anyway, Belichick has a shot at catching Tom Landry at 250 wins, (he's 63 wins behind right now.) He'll never catch Don Shula or George Halas.

7th place on the list is about right for 2013. He'll move up, and I think the historians will give him increasing credit for having dominated during the salary cap era which levels the playing field enormously.

shmessy · Jun 6, 2013

patriotsdynasty12189 said:
Like seriously what kind of effect does ESPN saying BB is the 7th coach of all time really have on you?

Not to speak for the poster, but I would imagine something along the lines of "The very same effect this or any football website has on me".

Discussion.

Is that in any way unclear?

Ring 6 · Jun 6, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

PatsFanSince74 said:
I only questioned the use of the words "struggled in the big ones." I still don't think it's fair to Landry.

He took his teams to 12 Conference Championships and won seven of them when only a handful of coaches have gone to half that number. I have a hard time describing that as "struggled" in big games when he navigated the Playoffs to get that far and also took his team to 36 Playoff games (no SB era HOF Coach has taken his teams to more), where he was 20--16, or 0.556 (just at the average for SB era HOF coaches in the playoffs).

Belichick's playoff performance is extraordinary at 17--7; that's the same record as Gibbs and comparable to Chuck Noll's 16--8. No one is trying to argue that he is not one of the GOATS in that category. But we have to be careful, lest our logic lead us to put Noll way over BB because he not only had a virtually identical record in the Playoffs but was also 4--0 in the big game.

It's interesting how Coaches get raps that are not always supported by the facts. Painting Landry with the brush that he struggled in big games might have been the CW in the 60's and early 70's, but it's a reputation that is not supported by the facts when viewed 40 years later and is as unfair as defining Belichick around Spygate.

Fine if you disagree. I view a guy who coached 29 years and won 2 Championships as not a guy who came through as much as you would like in big games.
He was in 22 playoff seasons and won it all twice. Cosnidering that 8 teams or less made the playoffs in most those years, 2/22 tends to support that he didn't do well in big games. It is well documented that the Cowboys were widely considered incapable of winning the big game in the 60s.
I'm not sure how you have him winning 7 conference championships when he only went to 5 SBs. If going to 12 is correct (didn't look it up) then 5-7 and 2-3 if conf champ + SB would support the argument that he did struggle in big games, as a 7-10 record certain is a struggling result.
To compare that to judging BB based on Spygate is disingenuous on your part.
It is fine that you have a higher opinion of Landry's achievements than I do, but why would you stoop to that?

DocHoliday · Jun 6, 2013

All said and done I think Bill has done more with less than any other coach against greater odds and more difficult rules.

A coach like Lombardi is revered for his historical gift to the game and will never be replaced of course, but I think history will be very very very kind to Bill Belichick.

Satchboogie3 · Jun 6, 2013

I'd say BB is the greatest coach of all time, but in terms of the most influential, guys like Lombardi and Walsh definitely have an edge in how they changed the game.

That said, BB easily is the best 'whole package' ever, period. The trump card: Salary Cap era. End of debate. It's easy to rack up wins when you own all the best players and can throw endless cash at them. BB brought a whole different look at the economics of team building and no one else is even all that close. The fact that he built a dynasty that won 3 championships in 4 years and managed to maintain a championship level of competition while restructuring the team. That's difficult without a salary cap and unheard of with a cap. Brady & Wilfork are the only guys left from the '04 team, and Wilfork was a rookie that season.

He has been ahead of the curve with respect to the changing ways the game is played since day one and his strategy on building a roster with respect to value, need, and versatility has been the model for just about ever other franchise who wants sustained success. Oh yeah, then there's all the rings he has won, games he's won, and records he's broken.

jmt57 · Jun 6, 2013

Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Paul Brown #6

The Brandon Five said:
It's not my line of reasoning. I was just speculating why he might be lower than he should be.

I know it's not you. It's a first cousin to the statement that gets repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact, even though it is not factually true. It is something that I can understand coming from fans searching for something to beat their chest about to back up their position that the team they root for is better than yours - but I find it sad when journalists not only repeat the very same line, but fail to see the twisted logic.

They just broadcast the remaining six, but I won't list the top five here until they post a synopsis and a link to their video and article about the coach.

For now, here is the coach that Belichick revered just one spot ahead of BB: Paul Brown. With all due respect to those that will be ranked higher, placing Brown at number 6 would be laughable joke if it wasn't such an ignorant slap in the face.

Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Paul Brown - ESPN

Paul Brown, the first coach of the Cleveland Browns, turned the organization into a dynasty and is credited with numerous innovations that made the coaching profession what it is today.

Brown was the first to hire a full-time coaching staff that worked year-round, and he took the scouting of college players to a new level. Brown, who had a teaching background, also used extensive film study of his players and graded them. He called plays from the sideline, using alternating guards to shuttle information to the field.

Brown also helped integrate professional football. Defensive lineman Bill Willis and running back Marion Motley were two of the first African-Americans to play professional football after they joined the Browns in 1946.

Brown had already been a successful coach of his high school alma mater, Washington High in Massillon, Ohio, college (Ohio State) and military teams when the Browns began playing in the All-America Football Conference in 1946. With Brown as general manager and coach, the team named after him dominated the league. The Browns went 47-4-3 in the regular season, including a 14-0 campaign in 1948, and 5-0 in the postseason, winning all four AAFC titles before the league's surviving teams merged with the NFL in 1950.

The Browns didn't miss a beat, winning the championship in their first NFL season. And that was just the start. They reached the championship game seven times in their first eight seasons in the NFL. They won additional titles in 1954 and '55, bringing Brown's total to a record seven championships.

After Art Modell bought the team in 1961, he and Brown had frequent conflicts over Brown's level of control. In January 1963, Brown was fired. During his 17 seasons in Cleveland, the Browns finished under .500 just once.

Brady_to_Moss · Jun 6, 2013

horrible list...rex ryan isn't on there

TheBostonStraggler · Jun 7, 2013

DocHoliday said:
All said and done I think Bill has done more with less than any other coach against greater odds and more difficult rules.

A coach like Lombardi is revered for his historical gift to the game and will never be replaced of course, but I think history will be very very very kind to Bill Belichick.

Agreed. Take Walsh, take Shula etc etc and apply cap rules, apply fuller free agency, apply strict and changing on field and off field rules applied by the comp. committee/Commish. This is what gives BB singular greatness, doing it in the modern era IMHO. I'd be willing to bet BB/The Patriots will be the last team in the NFL to do what he/they are doing -- to be in the mix of the SB (with 2 or 3 or 4 other teams) just about every year over a decade+. Consider BB is one incredible and dumfounding catch from a modern era perfect season. He is one WW dropped pass from having 5 SB victories in 11 years in an era that is designed to keep that from happening.
He has done it with stifling defense as well as done it with record breaking offense. He has been almost machine like in his consistency yet has also adapted as the game has evolved. His team, again within the context of the modern era, has been the place that supposed troublemakers could come to and be 'right-ed' (obviously not always successfully) and that reputation is well accepted league wide.

I have no problem with Lombardi being #1. Arguably you can see others of more 'historic' significance rated higher. Yet when you consider the cap era and how BB has had to do more with less under rules the others never faced, how BB is not #2 or #3 (#4 at worst) is something I don't understand. Then again it is ESPN, we must expect they would not look at BB without their teenage like bias.

PatsFanSince74 · Jun 7, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

AndyJohnson said:
Fine if you disagree. I view a guy who coached 29 years and won 2 Championships as not a guy who came through as much as you would like in big games.
He was in 22 playoff seasons and won it all twice. Cosnidering that 8 teams or less made the playoffs in most those years, 2/22 tends to support that he didn't do well in big games. It is well documented that the Cowboys were widely considered incapable of winning the big game in the 60s.
I'm not sure how you have him winning 7 conference championships when he only went to 5 SBs. If going to 12 is correct (didn't look it up) then 5-7 and 2-3 if conf champ + SB would support the argument that he did struggle in big games, as a 7-10 record certain is a struggling result.
To compare that to judging BB based on Spygate is disingenuous on your part.
It is fine that you have a higher opinion of Landry's achievements than I do, but why would you stoop to that?

He went to 12 and won five CG's. My typo. Thanks for catching it.

Otherwise, we're looking at the same data and reading it differently. that's terrific and it's why we come out here to discuss this stuff.

As for the Spygate comparison. I'm just saying that, given my interpretation of Landry's performance, I believe that it is "unfair" to say he "struggled." You disagree. No prob. Similarly, there are those who argue that, given Spygate, Belichick's accomplishments should be viewed with suspicion. We both clearly disagree with that. But, outside New England, there are many thoughtful fans who feel that Belichick's behavior in Spygate suggests that he does not belong on the same pedestal as Brown or Lombardi or Halas. I think that's an unfair criticism. Comparing the two criticism as unfair criticisms is not "disingenuous."

Jackson 2 · Jun 7, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

PatsFanSince74 said:
He went to 12 and won five CG's. My typo. Thanks for catching it.

Otherwise, we're looking at the same data and reading it differently. that's terrific and it's why we come out here to discuss this stuff.

As for the Spygate comparison. I'm just saying that, given my interpretation of Landry's performance, I believe that it is "unfair" to say he "struggled." You disagree. No prob. Similarly, there are those who argue that, given Spygate, Belichick's accomplishments should be viewed with suspicion. We both clearly disagree with that. But, outside New England, there are many thoughtful fans who feel that Belichick's behavior in Spygate suggests that he does not belong on the same pedestal as Brown or Lombardi or Halas. I think that's an unfair criticism. Comparing the two criticism as unfair criticisms is not "disingenuous."

. My principal disagreement with you centers upon your contention that "many thoughtful fans" think Spygate was a genuine breach of NFL protocol. No, actually no "thoughtful fans" truly believe that.

jmt57 · Jun 7, 2013

Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Chuck Noll #5

I would imagine many Steeler fans would not have been very happy if Belichick had been listed higher than Chuck Noll ... or for that matter, if anyone from their rivals in Cleveland (Paul Brown) had been listed higher than Noll either.

The article did remind me of one piece of information that I wish I could forget: Billy Sullivan's decision to hire Clive Rush as head coach over Noll.

Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Chuck Noll - ESPN

In 1969, Chuck Noll took over a Pittsburgh Steelers team that had never won a title of any kind. By the time he left 23 seasons later, the Steelers had become one of the NFL's greatest dynasties, with four Super Bowl wins.

Noll's Steelers won nine AFC Central titles in all, and their four championships came in a six-year period, spanning the 1974 through 1979 seasons. The only coach to win four Super Bowls, Noll was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1993.

Starting during his playing days, Noll was groomed by some of the greatest coaches in NFL history. The Cleveland Browns selected him out of Dayton in the 1953 draft, giving him a chance to win two NFL championships while playing offensive line and linebacker for seven seasons under Paul Brown.

Noll got his start in coaching in 1960, the year after he finished his playing career, as a defensive assistant under Sid Gillman with the AFL's Los Angeles Chargers. He followed the franchise to San Diego and worked with Gillman fox six seasons, then moved to Don Shula's staff with the Baltimore Colts in 1966 before landing his first -- and only -- head-coaching job three years later.

Noll had almost become Patriots' head coach days before the Steelers hired him in 1969. Boston owner Billy Sullivan's two finalists were Noll and New York Jets assistant Clive Rush. Since the Jets had just defeated the Colts in Super Bowl III, Sullivan opted for Rush. The Patriots went 5-16 under Rush, who was gone after a 1-6 start in 1970.

There was something at the end of the column that did have me scratching my head: Noll believed in building through the draft. It seems to imply that philosophy was unique, but that was long before free agency. What was the alternative, to build the team by trading draft picks for veterans? I think George Allen was the only person that operated that way.

JoeSixPat · Jun 7, 2013

PatsFanInVa said:
As much as we all still have permanent butthurt over the "Hey why don't I talk to the JEST instead of getting ready for Green Bay" thing, it's worth remembering the last line of that write-up - from 1-15 to a Super Bowl appearance... and the Pats stayed a contender almost every year thereafter. Of course, the Belichick era stands apart... but all hate aside, Parcells made us a consistent contender.

AndyJohnson said:
I disagree with that. Parcells took us from bad to 2 playoff berths and a .500 record in 4 years.
We were 32-32 the first 4 years after he left.
We became a consistent contender 5 years after he was gone.
Many teams go from the cellar to decent, but we didn't become a consistent contender until BB and wouldn't have. The effect of Parcells was almost zero by 2001, unless you want to give him credit that a handful of players were acquired in his 4 years here that contributed after he was gone, but then every coach that failed and was followed by a winner would get that credit.

I agree with AJ but I don't undervalue what Parcells brought to the Patriots

Quite simply he restored an NFL laughingstock to credibility - and in doing so, along with Bledsoe, helped create a situation in which we are not watching the St. Louis Stallions from afar.

Belichick without a doubt has brought consistency - the first coach in the history of the NFL to have 10 straight 10 win seasons, among his many other accomplishments.

PatsFanSince74 · Jun 8, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

Jackson 2 said:
. My principal disagreement with you centers upon your contention that "many thoughtful fans" think Spygate was a genuine breach of NFL protocol. No, actually no "thoughtful fans" truly believe that.

Disagree.

There are very knowledgeable football fans whom I meet in my travels as well as here in NY (fans who have moved here from all over the country and, so, NOT Jets fans, who are universally idiots) who will have a very sincere and thoughtful (but wrongheaded in my opinion) discussion with you that with Spygate and his subsequent "defense" of his actions, Belichick demonstrated a propensity for justifying stretching the rules that makes them wonder whether he played it straight in other ways and that makes them adjust downwards what their opinion would be if he were just judged on the basis of his record.

We really have our heads in the sand if we don't acknowledge that, in my opinion. And, we can acknowledge it as a reality without endorsing it or agreeing with it in any way.

Thanks for being polite and not resorting to name-calling, though.

flasox27 · Jun 8, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

PatsFanSince74 said:
Disagree.

There are very knowledgeable football fans whom I meet in my travels as well as here in NY (fans who have moved here from all over the country and, so, NOT Jets fans, who are universally idiots) who will have a very sincere and thoughtful (but wrongheaded in my opinion) discussion with you that with Spygate and his subsequent "defense" of his actions, Belichick demonstrated a propensity for justifying stretching the rules that makes them wonder whether he played it straight in other ways and that makes them adjust downwards what their opinion would be if he were just judged on the basis of his record.

We really have our heads in the sand if we don't acknowledge that, in my opinion. And, we can acknowledge it as a reality without endorsing it or agreeing with it in any way.
Thanks for being polite and not resorting to name-calling, though.

What you and the rest of the ill informed masses fail to grasp is that rules violations are not solely the property of BB and the Pats. Both the 49ers and Broncos were punished for violation which contributed to their SB wins. The Steeler were a collection of Roiders during their championship years. The only reason that Pats have a reputation like that is that the Piece of Sh-t biased commissioner and his minions in the NY media and ESPN decide to make it a big deal. By the way the real Pats fans don't give a damn what the ignorant and Jealous haters think

Ring 6 · Jun 8, 2013

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

PatsFanSince74 said:
He went to 12 and won five CG's. My typo. Thanks for catching it.

Otherwise, we're looking at the same data and reading it differently. that's terrific and it's why we come out here to discuss this stuff.

As for the Spygate comparison. I'm just saying that, given my interpretation of Landry's performance, I believe that it is "unfair" to say he "struggled." You disagree. No prob. Similarly, there are those who argue that, given Spygate, Belichick's accomplishments should be viewed with suspicion. We both clearly disagree with that. But, outside New England, there are many thoughtful fans who feel that Belichick's behavior in Spygate suggests that he does not belong on the same pedestal as Brown or Lombardi or Halas. I think that's an unfair criticism. Comparing the two criticism as unfair criticisms is not "disingenuous."

Disingenuous in that I am assessing Landrys record and calling someone who won a low percentage of big games a coach who struggled in big games. You stated this is the same as dismissing everything BB did by ignoring his record and blaming Spygate. You know that is not even close to a fair analogy. That was my point.

I'm still not sure how you feel winning 7 of 17 CC and SB doesn't define struggling. Do you call that successful?

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