More Internal dissension In The War Room?

DaBruinz said:

Guy on the right is Nick Caserio.

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Sends shivers up my spine to see krafty Jonathan in the war room...."wow, Brady's gonna have great fantasy stats today" - krafty Jonathan during the Tennessee game in the October snowstorm at Gillette
Even worse Jonathan the sperm lottery winner was on the phone! Pleased tell me this guy is not making or contributing to personnel decisions....

iapatsfan said:

Actually I want to like this guy, but even his highlight videos make him look like a JAG.

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Maybe the issue is you and your evaluation skills. Not sure how you can classify someone who isn't fooled by fakes, has a constant motor to get after the ball, has the speed to get to RBs in the backfield despite them running away from him and the ability to get to the QB as a "JAG".

I mean, if you actually WATCHED the video, you'd see that he didn't bite on a single play-action fake. He didn't bit on a single one of the fake hand-offs. Also, he really did excellent on stunting and beating the inside blocker (be it a guard or center).

Now, I've gone and watched the plays against U. of Houston, Nebraska, Wester Kentucky. and I only saw Collins beaten once by a double reverse. Now, he definitely needs work as a LB in zone coverage, but in man, he's already above average.

In 2012, he played 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE. He played both the left and right side. It was known as the "BANDIT" End position in a 4-2-5 scheme. He was there for 2 years after being a Safety as a freshmen and then an LB as a Sophomore. So, he is raw. But, in all honesty, he's got the attitude and physical ability. It's just a matter of refining the mental ability for the Pro-Game.

AzPatsFan said:

I detest this Bull ******.

Guys like y'all ran Paul Brown out of town as the rumor mongers said the game had "passed him by".

The Browns have won jack in the 50 years since.

The rumor mongers forced Don Sula into retirement. The Dolphins have won jack since he left.

Now the rectal cavities are doing the same to Bill Belichik. I say wise up or go have intercourse with yourself. it is the only way to use your intelligence and thinking skills as woeful as they are.

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I agree with you to an extent. I believe you are wrong about Shula. After winning the SB in the strike shortened 1982 season, the Phins only went to 1 more SB (in the 1984 season) during his entire time there. That is significantly different than what is going on here.

VrabelJr said:

I don't understand how the drafting of Collins leads so many people to believe we're switching to a 3-4. What, are we going to play Chandler Jones as 3-4 RDE?

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Gee.. I don't know. Maybe play Jones at McGinest's old Elephant Position as an OLB with Ninkovich/Collins on the other side an an OLB?? I mean... is that really such a novel idea?

DaBruinz said:

Gee.. I don't know. Maybe play Jones at McGinest's old Elephant Position as an OLB with Ninkovich/Collins on the other side an an OLB?? I mean... is that really such a novel idea?

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It sort of is because we don't have anyone that can play the 5 technique 3-4 DE. Unless Chandler Jones is in the weight room putting on 20 pounds right now I'd be willing to bet we'll be in a 4-3 for all but the very most specific of game plans.

I think playing a 3-4 requires us to have too many roster spots designated for the heavier DL positions, keep in mind we only carried 4 DTs last year. Playing a 3-4 would require us to have 5-6 DTs. Combine that with the fact that we really only have one stud DT and much better talent at DE/OLB.

VrabelJr said:

It sort of is because we don't have anyone that can play the 5 technique 3-4 DE. Unless Chandler Jones is in the weight room putting on 20 pounds right now I'd be willing to bet we'll be in a 4-3 for all but the very most specific of game plans.

I think playing a 3-4 requires us to have too many roster spots designated for the heavier DL positions, keep in mind we only carried 4 DTs last year. Playing a 3-4 would require us to have 5-6 DTs. Combine that with the fact that we really only have one stud DT and much better talent at DE/OLB.

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BB has augmented the 4 heavies with two imports. Kelly is able to play strong side end as is Armon Armstead. Don't forget that Cunningham and perhaps Hightower could do so as well.

AzPatsFan said:

BB has augmented the 4 heavies with two imports. Kelly is able to play strong side end as is Armon Armstead. Don't forget that Cunningham and perhaps Hightower could do so as well.

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I don't think we can make any proclamations about Armstead other than that he can play inside in a 4-3. Kelly on the other hand I do agree could be a 3-4 under DE as well as a 4-3 DT. The main reason I don't see us running a 3-4 is that BB prefers a two-gapping system and our new additions, Kelly and Armstead, seem to fit better as one gappers in my opinion. I think we stick to the 4-3 and one of Love or Deaderick (I'd guess Deaderick) doesn't make the team.

Joker said:

he's not a REAL captain, acid reflux...he just plays one here at Patsfans...sheesh...and "aye"?...what is it with people who come to a Boston thread and suddenly get all nautical and stuff..."aye Cap'n...shiver me timbers...avast you ruddy swabbies....starboard rudder to port!..."....really gets my goat..if I had a goat...I got a duck...and a three legged hamster...long story...

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In my defense, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one weekend.

VrabelJr said:

I don't understand how the drafting of Collins leads so many people to believe we're switching to a 3-4. What, are we going to play Chandler Jones as 3-4 RDE?

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I hope not, nor as a 3-4 OLB either.

VrabelJr said:

Arthur Brown moves better in space than Collins but he offers little in rushing the passer. And Brown probably sucks worse against the run than Collins does and I don't think there is much room for Brown to get better there. Getting to play next to one of the McClains will make it so Brown doesn't have too big of run stopping assignments though.

Collins is a 2-3 yards off the line player who we will look to get 1-on-1 match ups against the TE or weak side Tackle. I think one of Mayo or Hightower moves to MLB and Collins takes their spot at OLB. Wilfork gets double teamed every play and Jones will get double teamed more frequently. This frees up Kelly/Armstead/Deaderick, Ninkovich and Collins to get 1-on-1s that they need to win consistently.

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Fair points, though I don't know if Hightower's best fit is as MLB. He probably should either gain
about a dozen pounds and convert to DE, or lose about a dozen pounds and start covering better.

AzPatsFan said:

BB has augmented the 4 heavies with two imports. Kelly is able to play strong side end as is Armon Armstead. Don't forget that Cunningham and perhaps Hightower could do so as well.

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If Cunningham or Hightower were put in that position, opposing offenses would run all over the defense to that side. Ideally, if we're going to give more 3-4 looks, you want another DE. Kelly, at this point in his career, is probably best used as an interior rusher in sub-packages.

AzPatsFan said:

I detest this Bull ******.

Guys like y'all ran Paul Brown out of town as the rumor mongers said the game had "passed him by".

The Browns have won jack in the 50 years since.

The rumor mongers forced Don Sula into retirement. The Dolphins have won jack since he left.

Now the rectal cavities are doing the same to Bill Belichik. I say wise up or go have intercourse with yourself. it is the only way to use your intelligence and thinking skills as woeful as they are.

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I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree that Belichick is still close to the top at age 60, but you used 2 bad examples. In hindsight, the game had passed by both Brown and Shula by the time they were forced out of Cleveland and Miami.

The Browns won their last championship 2 years after Brown left, with Collier as head coach, in 1964. The Browns had a winning percentage of 0.538 over Paul Browns' last 3 years, and Collier led the same team to a Championship and a 0.750 winning percentage over the next 3 years after Paul Browns' departure.

As for Shula, it's true that Jimmy Johnson didn't do any better than Shula had done. But over Shula's last 10 years (1986 to 1995), he compiled a mediocre 0.560 winning percentage (that's less than 9 wins per season, and much lower than his career average of 0.678) despite having Dan Marino and an explosive Dolphins offense that ranked in the NFL top ten (in points per game) 7 times in 10 seasons while the defense got into top 10 only once (sounds familiar?).

Obviously, Belichick isn't at the crossroad yet, his last season of less than 10 wins goes back to 2002, and his winning percentage over the last few years has been great. But I understand that some might think they see a chink in the armor: the inability to fix the defense is quite troubling, and since he is not getting any younger, it might be interpreted as an inability to adapt his defensive strategy in order to defend against the new style of NFL offenses.

RDS11 said:

I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree that Belichick is still close to the top at age 60, but you used 2 bad examples. In hindsight, the game had passed by both Brown and Shula by the time they were forced out of Cleveland and Miami.

The Browns won their last championship 2 years after Brown left, with Collier as head coach, in 1964. The Browns had a winning percentage of 0.538 over Paul Browns' last 3 years, and Collier led the same team to a Championship and a 0.750 winning percentage over the next 3 years after Paul Browns' departure.

As for Shula, it's true that Jimmy Johnson didn't do any better than Shula had done. But over Shula's last 10 years (1986 to 1995), he compiled a mediocre 0.560 winning percentage (that's less than 9 wins per season, and much lower than his career average of 0.678) despite having Dan Marino and an explosive Dolphins offense that ranked in the NFL top ten (in points per game) 7 times in 10 seasons while the defense got into top 10 only once (sounds familiar?).

Obviously, Belichick isn't at the crossroad yet, his last season of less than 10 wins goes back to 2002, and his winning percentage over the last few years has been great. But I understand that some might think they see a chink in the armor: the inability to fix the defense is quite troubling, and since he is not getting any younger, it might be interpreted as an inability to adapt his defensive strategy in order to defend against the new style of NFL offenses.

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Paul Brown founded the expansion Cinncinatti Bengals with a ragtag assembly of AFL refugees. In three years, he had thtem in the merged NFL Playoffs. Belichick considers him the GOAT among coaches, and worshiped him as a kid. The game never "passed him by". His great teams of the late 40s and early 50s merely got old; and he was rebuilding while still winning, when he got fired by jackass Modell, who also fired Belichick.

Don Shula was a victim of his own success. When his Superbowl clubs got old, he kept them still winning, but could never acquire quite enough talent to rebuild the team into a Superbowl team. But the Dolphins still have the highest winning percentage of any NFL team, and only had a handful of losing seasons as of last year. Two of which came while they were an expansion club, just gettiing started. IMHO, George Wilson doesn't get enough credit for assembling the Dolphins Superbowl squads that Shula inherited,and improved though.

So tell me what Cleveland or Miami have done since they left, other than Collier winning once, after inheriting the partially rebuilt Browns from Brown?

Belichick has been steadily adding talent to his rebuilt Defense. Sooner or later, possibly this season, it will achieve critical mass, and breakout back to a league leader in Defense. As for his Offense, he is putting the finishing touches on the final squad to be rebuilt.

Sooner or later BB will face the QB transition that Brown faced replacing Otto Graham; and Shula faced replacing Bob Griese. I think he is making sure the team surrounding the eventual successor/newcomer is prepared and complete. Meanwhile Brady still has a year or three to win another ring or two.

AzPatsFan said:

Paul Brown founded the expansion Cinncinatti Bengals with a ragtag assembly of AFL refugees. In three years, he had thtem in the merged NFL Playoffs. Belichick considers him the GOAT among coaches, and worshiped him as a kid. The game never "passed him by". His great teams of the late 40s and early 50s merely got old; and he was rebuilding while still winning, when he got fired by jackass Modell, who also fired Belichick.

Don Shula was a victim of his own success. When his Superbowl clubs got old, he kept them still winning, but could never acquire quite enough talent to rebuild the team into a Superbowl team. But the Dolphins still have the highest winning percentage of any NFL team, and only had a handful of losing seasons as of last year. Two of which came while they were an expansion club, just gettiing started. IMHO, George Wilson doesn't get enough credit for assembling the Dolphins Superbowl squads that Shula inherited,and improved though.

So tell me what Cleveland or Miami have done since they left, other than Collier winning once, after inheriting the partially rebuilt Browns from Brown?

Belichick has been steadily adding talent to his rebuilt Defense. Sooner or later, possibly this season, it will achieve critical mass, and breakout back to a league leader in Defense. As for his Offense, he is putting the finishing touches on the final squad to be rebuilt.

Sooner or later BB will face the QB transition that Brown faced replacing Otto Graham; and Shula faced replacing Bob Griese. I think he is making sure the team surrounding the eventual successor/newcomer is prepared and complete. Meanwhile Brady still has a year or three to win another ring or two.

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I provided you with enough data to show that both Brown's and Shula's teams in their last few years were not as competitive as they once had been. They were average, and average will get you fired in the ultra-competitive NFL.

I'm not dissing Paul Brown's career. He revolutionized coaching. That didn't make him immune to aging, and the fact that Collier did MUCH better than him with basically the same players confirms that Modell did the right thing by replacing Brown.

Brown had moderate success with the Bengals. He took an expension team and made it competitive, but nothing more. It's not like Brown has suddenly forgot how to build a team, he was just less efficient at it that he once was. But there are 2 things that put his Bengals years into perspective :
1- Brown let Bill Walsh go, didn't named him head coach of the Bengals upon his retirement. Because of jalousy or just plain oversight, it doesn't look well on Brown's resume.
2- The Bucs, Panthers and Jaguars all had better success than the Bengals in their first few years. The Jags and Panthers reached the conference championship in their 2nd year, and the Bucs in their 4th.

Shula was 65 when he was fired, after going an average of 9-7 per season for 10 years. Could the Dolphins realistically expect that their coach would suddenly get the team to become a dominant team again, given his age and lack of recent success ?

Nothing is eternal, and everybody ages. At some point, everybody needs to be replaced, legend or not.