More Internal dissension In The War Room?

JMC00 said:

If he was played for Alabama or LSU and put up similar numbers to what he did at Southern Mississippi he would have gone in the top 20.

But the problem was he played on the absolute worst team in the FBS last year. Out of 124 teams they were ranked 124.

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If Collins played for one of those elite teams he'd go top 5 like Dion Jordan did. His combine number are identical to Jordan, except I think he gives up 2-3 inches if that counts

manxman2601 said:

If true, another brains trust v scouting department inability to be on the same page is troublesome because it hasn't gone well in the past.

Pauline certainly has good contacts in general although he's not always completely reliable when it comes to the Patriots so this is 'pinch of salt' worthy but is still worthy of attention.

Grading the Draft: New England Patriots

From my perspective, I do think every pick has some risk aside from the Boyce pick. There is certainly plenty of upside in Collins, Dobson and Ryan in particular but there's an equal bust opportunity with all three that does concern me.

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Thank you for sharing this very interesting information.

However, I do not see evidence indicating dissension, only disagreement. Eventually, scouts are responsible for the references and analysis they make, not the choices the team makes. The brain trust is responsible for making the final decissions, and no doubt they listen to the scouts very closely.

I'm not a fan of consensus-seeking leadership, so I have no problems with one department overruling other as long as the dialogue channels are open both ways.

iapatsfan said:

Actually I want to like this guy, but even his highlight videos make him look like a JAG.

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You have to be kidding.

It is well documented that Belichick started his own in depth and specific process for evaluating players when he was in Cleveland and has spent years fine tuning it, and while I can believe that there is disagreement among scouts on his staff about player intangibles and whether or not they will pan out, such as Maroney's lack of toughness or Chad Jackson's lack of intelligence, i don't believe that scout's on his staff have grade's on players related to measurables and play that are 5-6 rounds apart. That in no way means there aren't disagreements about players i am certain there are, but I really don't see his scouts all using the same process and coming up with radically different ratings.

Ivan said:

It is well documented that Belichick started his own in depth and specific process for evaluating players when he was in Cleveland and has spent years fine tuning it, and while I can believe that there is disagreement among scouts on his staff about player intangibles and whether or not they will pan out, such as Maroney's lack of toughness or Chad Jackson's lack of intelligence, i don't believe that scout's on his staff have grade's on players related to measurables and play that are 5-6 rounds apart. That in no way means there aren't disagreements about players i am certain there are, but I really don't see his scouts all using the same process and coming up with radically different ratings.

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bingo......I can understand there being disagreement but #52 vs last day of the draft pick? come on there is no way that the scouts are saying the guy is a 5th, 6th or 7th round pick and BB/NC decide to pick him with #52. That would imply the rating system for players that the Pats scouts use is completely different than what BB/NC use.......knowing how the Pats Org likes their Patriots Way Process there is no way they are that far apart on any player let alone one they pick with the #52 selection in the draft.

I detest this Bull ******.

Guys like y'all ran Paul Brown out of town as the rumor mongers said the game had "passed him by".

The Browns have won jack in the 50 years since.

The rumor mongers forced Don Sula into retirement. The Dolphins have won jack since he left.

Now the rectal cavities are doing the same to Bill Belichik. I say wise up or go have intercourse with yourself. it is the only way to use your intelligence and thinking skills as woeful as they are.

maybe you can learn pass rushing moves easier than you can learn speed and athletic ability. 6'3.5" and 245 pounds about the same size Lawrence Taylor was!

Just sayin'! (I hate when people write or say that).

At least he'll be quick enough to cover in space, etc.

BelichickFan said:

- He references issues in the War Room - we all know there's no scouts in the war room. Other than the Krafts, just Bill, Casserio, Robinson and Ernie. Maybe Robinson had an issue with a pick or two but there were no scouts in the war room arguing there point, as he suggested, as the scouts aren't there.

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TRUE. I've heard that the Pats have one of the smallest draft warrooms in the entire NFL. So the actual scouts which I'm sure we have many wouldn't actually be in there arguing their points.\\

Brady2Moss said:

Exactly any deficiencies in his game will be magnified because he isn't going from that kind of production against A competition to NFL, he is going from Conference USA to NFL, bigger leap than most.

I think Collins should be fine as a coverage linebacker he played safety he should have the instincts. I doubt he will be a big time pass rusher maybe he'll chip in 4 sacks if he is covering TEs and RBs well those are just a bonus.

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Collins has the potential to be Connor Barwin with superior athleticism. ;-)

Barwin
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/connor-barwin?id=71197

Collins
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jamie-collins?id=2539311

And how many of us would be jumping for joy if Connor Barwin's name had been called?

Finnishfan said:

Thank you for sharing this very interesting information.

However, I do not see evidence indicating dissension, only disagreement. Eventually, scouts are responsible for the references and analysis they make, not the choices the team makes. The brain trust is responsible for making the final decissions, and no doubt they listen to the scouts very closely.

I'm not a fan of consensus-seeking leadership, so I have no problems with one department overruling other as long as the dialogue channels are open both ways.

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My title was written in haste and regretted at leisure unfortunately. I really wasn't trying to put a spin on things, was just wanting to share the info and got too clever.

VJCPatriot said:

TRUE. I've heard that the Pats have one of the smallest draft warrooms in the entire NFL. So the actual scouts which I'm sure we have many wouldn't actually be in there arguing their points.\\

Collins has the potential to be Connor Barwin with superior athleticism. ;-)

Barwin
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Connor Barwin

Collins
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jamie Collins

And how many of us would be jumping for joy if Connor Barwin's name had been called?

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I and many others would've jumped for joy had Barwin's name been called instead of Ron Brace's.

I'm sure there's second guessing in the War room about when to draft a player they want.

But some fans look at that the wrong way.

If there's a player you want, you've got to take them before someone else does. You will "reach" for a player you really want. You don't take the risk they will be taken before you're next pick if you really value a player that seems well suited to your system.

It's obvious that Belichick saw something in Collins, Dobson, et al that made him value them highly.

That's good news folks!

captain stone said:

I and many others would've jumped for joy had Barwin's name been called instead of Ron Brace's.

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Aye Captain.....

he's not a REAL captain, acid reflux...he just plays one here at Patsfans...sheesh...and "aye"?...what is it with people who come to a Boston thread and suddenly get all nautical and stuff..."aye Cap'n...shiver me timbers...avast you ruddy swabbies....starboard rudder to port!..."....really gets my goat..if I had a goat...I got a duck...and a three legged hamster...long story...

VJCPatriot said:

TRUE. I've heard that the Pats have one of the smallest draft warrooms in the entire NFL. So the actual scouts which I'm sure we have many wouldn't actually be in there arguing their points.\\

Collins has the potential to be Connor Barwin with superior athleticism. ;-)

Barwin
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Connor Barwin

Collins
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jamie Collins

And how many of us would be jumping for joy if Connor Barwin's name had been called?

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If he can be a do it all linebacker even better, he is a really intriguing player with the needs at coverage linebacker and pass rush there's no way this guy can't contribute to make us better in some way. At least that is my hope for him year 1.

Finnishfan said:

However, I do not see evidence indicating dissension, only disagreement.

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A distinction often missed here and on most sports boards. The Pats, and all sports teams, and all organizations in general, would be dreadful without internal disagreement.

JoeSixPat said:

If there's a player you want, you've got to take them before someone else does. You will "reach" for a player you really want. You don't take the risk they will be taken before you're next pick if you really value a player that seems well suited to your system.

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Yes, and we need to define the term "reach." The "consensus" that supposedly exists about where players fit in the draft is based on the analysis of a few analysts who look only at some college game tape (not all of it) and have limited access to a few coaches (most of whom won't tell them the truth and are just trying to get their players drafted early). The opinions of these analysts are then published, aggregated, republished, quoted, and borrowed, repeatedly until this echo chamber that is the football media creates a generally held opinion that is camouflaged as having dozens and dozens of original sources, which it doesn't.

A "reach" is then created when a team has the audacity to have an opinion about a player that is different than this generally held opinion. That's all it is. To maintain its false reputation as being the source of expertise to which we should all bow, the media must criticize a team for doing this. The pick has to be discussed using evaluative terms like "reach." Real journalism would use terms that reflect interest and curiosity, suggesting only that the team clearly has a differing opinion than the media, exploring the possible reasons why, and taking the position that only time will tell us how to evaluate the pick.

manxman2601 said:

My title was written in haste and regretted at leisure unfortunately. I really wasn't trying to put a spin on things, was just wanting to share the info and got too clever.

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That is pretty much what I do every time I create a new thread. Getting carried away with a subject easily causes exaggeration which in turn makes your opinions and observations seem more radical than they are intended to be.

Luckily these are forum threads, not newspaper columns or such, so we always have a chance to correct such misconceptions.

I don't understand how the drafting of Collins leads so many people to believe we're switching to a 3-4. What, are we going to play Chandler Jones as 3-4 RDE?

captain stone said:

The issue with Collins as a 4-3 OLB is that he has much more experience as a 4-3 DE moving north-south.

Given his documented athleticism, it it possible that he could also successfully play in coverage/space?
Sure it is; he just doesn't have a history of proven performance, yet (I hope).

This is the risk of drafting him at 52 instead of a LB like Arthur Brown, a higher-floor/lower ceiling guy
with proven coverage skills whom Ozzie Newsome chose 4 picks later, or waiting until the 3rd/4th-round picks
and choosing a more traditional 4-3 DE in Alex Okafor or 4-3 OLB in Kaseem Greene (from Rutgers!).

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Arthur Brown moves better in space than Collins but he offers little in rushing the passer. And Brown probably sucks worse against the run than Collins does and I don't think there is much room for Brown to get better there. Getting to play next to one of the McClains will make it so Brown doesn't have too big of run stopping assignments though.

Collins is a 2-3 yards off the line player who we will look to get 1-on-1 match ups against the TE or weak side Tackle. I think one of Mayo or Hightower moves to MLB and Collins takes their spot at OLB. Wilfork gets double teamed every play and Jones will get double teamed more frequently. This frees up Kelly/Armstead/Deaderick, Ninkovich and Collins to get 1-on-1s that they need to win consistently.

edboc said:

Who are these three guys?

Patriots All Access - 5/3/2013

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Guy on the right is Nick Caserio.