The Official Rounds 2&3 2013 NFL Draft Thread

DaBruinz said:

NFLDraftscout.com had him rated as a 3rd round selection. I'm sure that Kiper had Ryan rated differently as well.

Who cares what the Draft Sites rate these players at? The only one who I'd take their evaluation of the kid over the Patriots Scouting department is Joel Buschbaum. And, unfortunately, he died a few years back.

DraftCountdown.com had him listed as a Rd 2 or Rd 3 prospect. I mean, it sure looks like the Pats took Logan Ryan right about where he was expected.

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Yeah, I really like Mike Mayock, but when did he become the be all and end all of where a player should go? Mayock, like every other draft expert, gets a lot wrong.

Personally, I like Rick Gosselin as my go to draft expert (he's a favorite of Belichick just like Buschbaum was when he was alive), but I haven't actually seen him do much in recent years with the draft as a whole.

Deus Irae said:

Absolutely, although the problem drafts were 2006-2009, IMO. Maybe the picks work out to be a pack of HOFers, but this is the worst use of picks I can remember this team doing in the Belichick era. Outside of the WR pick (who's got questions of his own), it's as if they are trying to blow the draft.*



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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You're right, I was a year off, 06-09. The past three drafts have been good to really good.

And agreed with the idea of the use of picks, not the players themselves.

mgteich said:

Yes, this is likely the end of the Ebner experiment. Both Dobson and Ryan are top special teamers.

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FWIW, I think it's more likely that it spells the end of the Koutouvides and Cole experiments.

Ebner had the second-highest snap total on STs (only Koutouvides played more), and the second-highest tackle total (only Slater(!) had more).

Put slightly differently, I view Ebner as, at worst, Matt Slater's mini-me.

Deus Irae said:

Meet the Patriots first pick of the draft. It's every bit as laughable as the Jets defensive picks. It's more so, really, because they took a guy with a motor problem in the process.

They screwed the pooch. This is a 2006-2009 style draft.*

* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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Coples had motor problems and he turned into a very good situational pass rusher last year. Not a great thing with a mid first round pick, but if Collins can become the Pats' Coples he will be an excellent pick in the mid-second round.

Again, three years from now, the Jets first two picks this year could be the All Pros and the cornerstone of an elite defense. We laugh at these picks now partly because they are the Jets and their history of mistakes. I am sure if the Steelers drafted the Jets' draft, people would be gushing. If it was a good team that made these picks, you could argue that Miliner was the best corner and Richardson may be the best DT in the draft.

patsfan13 said:

Well BB on Harmon:






So do I believe BB on value or you and the other assorted draftnicks?

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what are you talking about? It goes without saying that BB thinks he is good value. That's why he took him. :confused2:

condon84 said:

You're right, I was a year off, 06-09. The past three drafts have been good to really good.

And agreed with the idea of the use of picks, not the players themselves.

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What makes it worse is the solid job being done by the Steelers. They needed to get a linebacker. They got the best in the draft. They needed a WR. They got one of the top prospects. They needed a RB and they got one without bouncing around for 'value', drafting a different position a round later and then finally deciding to take the RB after that.

The Steelers are putting on a clinic on how to draft, and the Patriots are putting on a clinic on how not to draft.*


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

ctpatsfan77 said:

FWIW, I think it's more likely that it spells the end of the Koutouvides and Cole experiments.

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I could definitely see Cole being gone. Arrington isn't going to have an every-down defensive role, so I could see him as the gunner opposite Slater, which drastically lowers Cole's value. And he's not the #4 CB right now either. He's the #6 right now, if Dowling can amount to anything.

Rob0729 said:

Coples had motor problems and he turned into a very good situational pass rusher last year. Not a great thing with a mid first round pick, but if Collins can become the Pats' Coples he will be an excellent pick in the mid-second round.

Again, three years from now, the Jets first two picks this year could be the All Pros and the cornerstone of an elite defense. We laugh at these picks now partly because they are the Jets and their history of mistakes. I am sure if the Steelers drafted the Jets' draft, people would be gushing.

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If the Steelers had drafted the way either the Patriots or Jets had, I'd be thinking that they'd be lucky to win more than 6 games this year, because it would be clear that they'd lost their collective minds. Instead, I'm looking at a team that's probably going to have yet another bounce back year, and be a force in the playoffs as long as the shampoo salesman can stay relatively healthy.*



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

Deus Irae said:

What makes it worse is the solid job being done by the Steelers. They needed to get a linebacker. They got the best in the draft. They needed a WR. They got one of the top prospects. They needed a RB and they got one without bouncing around for 'value', drafting a different position a round later and then finally deciding to take the RB after that.

The Steelers are putting on a clinic on how to draft, and the Patriots are putting on a clinic on how not to draft.*


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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And three years from now people may be saying the Steelers should have drafted like the Patriots. The Steelers in recent years have gotten really high draft grades on draft day without those picks ever turning into productive players. The reason the Steelers drafted Jones was because they wiffed on Worilds who was deemed a second round steal when they drafted him.

Deus Irae said:

What makes it worse is the solid job being done by the Steelers. They needed to get a linebacker. They got the best in the draft. They needed a WR. They got one of the top prospects. They needed a RB and they got one without bouncing around for 'value', drafting a different position a round later and then finally deciding to take the RB after that.

The Steelers are putting on a clinic on how to draft, and the Patriots are putting on a clinic on how not to draft.*


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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I don't think the way the pats move around is the issue because they still get quality picks. The problem is converting those picks into quality players. Some years they do it great (like 2010), others not so much.

TyronePoole said:

What I don't get is does BB not try to even guess where other teams have guys like Harmon/Tavon Wilson? He either doesn't care or he thinks Harmon/Wilson were going to get snagged up right around or soon after where he took them. Some people argue that he just DGAF about the draft but that doesn't make sense, since you don't trade back from round 1 for a return a substantial part of which is a 3rd (Yes I know this wasn't the acquired pick, but it doesn't matter).

How is it that two years in a row we are the only team that has two guys with completely off the wall projections? Are we the only team that doesn't incorporate consensus rankings at all or did we just coincidentally pick the two back to back secretly highly rated sleepers? I honestly don't understand this....

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In short, yes. The Patriots do not bother with "consensus" rankings. In fact, I would venture to say that NO TEAM uses "consensus" rankings. There are only TWO scouting services that are used by the teams in the league. The Mike Mayocks, Mel Kipers, etc are just talking heads for the fans. All the sites that we, the fans, have access to (NFLDraftScout.com, TheHuddleReport, GreatBlueNorth, WalterFootball, etc) are amateur hour when it comes to scouting and have no bearing on what actually goes on in the NFL.

There are two scouting services used by the NFL. They are NATIONAL and BLESTO. They provide scouting services for 25 of the 32 teams in the league. They are also the companies that put on the Combine in Indianapolis and many of the Regional Combines across the country.

The Patriots are one of the teams that do not use the scouting services. We learned this from the book, "Patriot Reign". The Patriots have their own scouting department. It used to be run by Thomas Dimitroff. Jon Robinson took over as the Director of College Scouting when Dimitroff left for Atlanta. Patriot Reign has a great rundown of how they rate players.

Deus Irae said:

If the Steelers had drafted the way either the Patriots or Jets had, I'd be thinking that they'd be lucky to win more than 6 games this year, because it would be clear that they'd lost their collective minds. Instead, I'm looking at a team that's probably going to have yet another bounce back year, and be a force in the playoffs as long as the shampoo salesman can stay relatively healthy.*



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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I think the Steelers may be lucky to win 6 games this year with the picks they made.

You already have their picks working out and the Pats and Jets picks busting. You are too smart to know that isn't the way it works. Great drafts at the end of April turn into turds when September rolls around and crappy drafts in April turn into great drafts in September. It happens all the time.

The draft is a crap shoot. Always was. Always will be. To declare the Steelers to have a sure fire great draft and the Pats and Jets having bust drafts is ridiculous at this point.

Blackluck said:

Look at SF. Very few if any holes on that roster.
Look at us.

Yeah.

Why? Because of these stupid ******* reaches.
That's 20 DBs or more and counting.

How many of those DBs turned into solid starters? Pro Bowl players?
How's our pass defense?

We SUCK at this. Period.

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You really need to go away because this was talked about in the Draft Board and it was shown that the Pats weren't nearly as bad at either CB or Safety as people would like to think. Have they had some bad picks? Sure. But, every team does. I can remember people talking about the Steelers being so great at drafting WR. Well, when you actually LOOKED at the number they'd drafted and the number of busts they'd had, it didn't look so great anymore.

Rob0729 said:

And three years from now people may be saying the Steelers should have drafted like the Patriots. The Steelers in recent years have gotten really high draft grades on draft day without those picks ever turning into productive players. The reason the Steelers drafted Jones was because they wiffed on Worilds who was deemed a second round steal when they drafted him.

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Three years from now is irrelevant, because I'm talking about decisions to move picks and how the moved picks were used. You know this. The Patriots dropped down and put themselves in position to fix the WR and S positions for years. Instead, they drafted a LB with their first pick, which was a frighteningly stupid move, and they then followed that up with lower end prospects at CB and S when they had the ammo to get better ones and finally fix things they've been screwing up since 2007.

And don't give me the "BB has his own board" argument, because the S prospect was projected towards round 7/UDFA territory and that argument hasn't meant crap for the DBs. They overdrafted Wilson last year, but that seems like a dream maneuver compared to this move.*

Also missing on Worilds is irrelevant, so let's not go tossing out the strawmen and red herrings.


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

Wilfork#75 said:

I don't think the way the pats move around is the issue because they still get quality picks. The problem is converting those picks into quality players. Some years they do it great (like 2010), others not so much.

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The way the moved, combined with the way they followed up the moves, is the issue. This team has areas of strength. Linebacker is one of them.

They took a LB with their first pick of the draft when areas of real need had high level prospects available for the taking, and they ended up taking lower end prospects as a result of that pick combined with not moving up with the later picks when they had the ammo to do so. There are GMs who'd get fired for that level of incompetence. Here we've got people giving 'A' draft grades.*


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

DaBruinz said:

In short, yes. The Patriots do not bother with "consensus" rankings. In fact, I would venture to say that NO TEAM uses "consensus" rankings. There are only TWO scouting services that are used by the teams in the league. The Mike Mayocks, Mel Kipers, etc are just talking heads for the fans. All the sites that we, the fans, have access to (NFLDraftScout.com, TheHuddleReport, GreatBlueNorth, WalterFootball, etc) are amateur hour when it comes to scouting and have no bearing on what actually goes on in the NFL.

There are two scouting services used by the NFL. They are NATIONAL and BLESTO. They provide scouting services for 25 of the 32 teams in the league. They are also the companies that put on the Combine in Indianapolis and many of the Regional Combines across the country.

The Patriots are one of the teams that do not use the scouting services. We learned this from the book, "Patriot Reign". The Patriots have their own scouting department. It used to be run by Thomas Dimitroff. Jon Robinson took over as the Director of College Scouting when Dimitroff left for Atlanta. Patriot Reign has a great rundown of how they rate players.

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I guess my point is that if they're going to take an approach that involves trading back frequently (which I strongly agree with) then shouldn't they at least be attempting to speculate on where players will be slotted by other teams?

It's one thing to say "the draft is a crapshoot, it's mostly about system, coaching, the right fit etc. I'm gonna pick Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon" it's another thing to trade a first round pick back to get those guys. That says that you think that's where the value is in the draft. if that's the case how can you make picks that would likely fall to the 6th or 7th round? Or do people think that BB happened to spot 2 guys that a few teams secretly/randomly had rated in the 2nd/3rd? Or did BB just mistakenly think that?

It just doesn't make sense to trade back and not give a crap about where everyone else rates players, you're basically putting an emphasis on exploiting others overvaluing one asset and then immediately squandering the reward.

DaBruinz said:

You really need to go away because this was talked about in the Draft Board and it was shown that the Pats weren't nearly as bad at either CB or Safety as people would like to think. Have they had some bad picks? Sure. But, every team does. I can remember people talking about the Steelers being so great at drafting WR. Well, when you actually LOOKED at the number they'd drafted and the number of busts they'd had, it didn't look so great anymore.

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Okay. 123

Rob0729 said:

I think the Steelers may be lucky to win 6 games this year with the picks they made.

You already have their picks working out and the Pats and Jets picks busting. You are too smart to know that isn't the way it works. Great drafts at the end of April turn into turds when September rolls around and crappy drafts in April turn into great drafts in September. It happens all the time.

The draft is a crap shoot. Always was. Always will be. To declare the Steelers to have a sure fire great draft and the Pats and Jets having bust drafts is ridiculous at this point.

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The Steelers will be back in the playoffs if TP can stay somewhat healthy, in all likelihood*, and I find it telling that you are deliberately trying to get to results when I'm discussing process, maneuverings and intelligence of the basic moves, and have made it clear more than once that the players may work out swimmingly. It leads us to a spot from which nothing more can really be gleaned, though, so that would seem to be that.


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

Deus Irae said:

Three years from now is irrelevant, because I'm talking about decisions to move picks and how the moved picks were used. You know this. The Patriots dropped down and put themselves in position to fix the WR and S positions for years. Instead, they drafted a LB with their first pick, which was a frighteningly stupid move, and they then followed that up with lower end prospects at CB and S when they had the ammo to get better ones and finally fix things they've been screwing up since 2007.

And don't give me the "BB has his own board" argument, because the S prospect was projected towards round 7/UDFA territory and that argument hasn't meant crap for the DBs. They overdrafted Wilson last year, but that seems like a dream maneuver compared to this move.*

And missing on Worilds is irrelevant, so let's not go tossing out the strawmen and red herrings.


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

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And what people think of the Pats' or any other team's drafts right now or next week is irrelevant. There are no wins or losses or trophies handed out for who people think had the best draft the day after teams draft.

You think the Pats draft suck. And what if Collins turns into a double digit sack player or Dobson is a Pro Bowler? Does the draft still suck if the picks turn into good or great players because right now you think the Pats should have gotten better players.

You are throwing around your opinions as fact, but all they are is your opinions. The Pats doesn't suck because you think it sucks. The draft could turn out to be a great draft or worse than even you think.

All that matters with a draft is how those draft picks perform on the field. Your opinions of the Pats' draft, my opinions of the Pats' draft, Mike Mayock's opinion, Mel Kiper's opinion, etc. will all be forgotten by most in a few weeks. This draft will be judged on how these players turn out, not the opinion of people posting on the message board at midnight after the second day of the draft.

Blackluck said:

A good pick is a good pick, a pick that SUCKS still sucks.

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And right now, anybody who claims to know the difference is a complete liar.