Does the Patriots Business Model work?

ivanvamp said:

One reason the Pats' way of doing things works is who they have at QB. If they had a regular dude at QB, like Mark Sanchez or Kevin Kolb for example, I doubt they'd see nearly the same kind of success. Yes, we can point to their 2008 season with Cassel, but that year they had one of the easiest schedules imaginable, and I don't think they would have kept that up year after year.

It is a good model, but it helps a lot having #12 in the lineup every week.

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Yeah, once Brady leaves I think we will truly see if it works, I agree with your post. I think Dante has a lot to do with the success of this team, I doubt he has any say in terms of being in the room and providing input for percentages of a cap for the OL. This team remains competitive and Brady remains in the league, relatively healthy throughout his career, thanks in huge part to the play of the offensive line.

It was just an-off-season topic for discussion...

It's obvious it works. Is there flexibility? Yes, there is room for some. But part of the reason is because they are so responsible in the first place. If they made exceptions for every single situation, they simply could not afford to do more. Welker's franchise tag last year when they valued him around $5M is an example of this. Or maybe Wes was worth more last year because Amendola wasn't available. The point is that the Pats always have room to make moves, while dozens of teams are cutting guys they don't want to but have no choice about over the last few months.

Also, I don't know if we invented it or not, but if you look around the landscape, you'll notice certain teams follow similar principles. The Ravens could have matched some of the offers on starters signed elsewhere, and I'm really surprised they didn't match Ellerbe's deal. Everyone is writing them off but they may have a chance to come back with an upgraded and healthier defense than last season. San Fran has a bloated defensive payroll but they are big on signing/keeping their own FAs and complementing them from the outside. Their fiscal discipline allowed them to absorb Boldin's contract when the Ravens could not. Green Bay has also lost players rather than pay them inflated salaries, the most recent example being Jennings, yet they've found a way to consistently compete. Ted Thompson sets an even harder line than we do it seems. These are some pretty good franchises to be associated with.

Then you have the Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyders, the Raiders under Al Davis, the teams that constantly had to have that one guy and would pay any price to do so. That's how you end up franchising the same over-rated DE twice or signing blockbuster failures like Haynesworth or giving $4M a year to a punter.

I hate to throw Tampa Bay in here but that Dashon Goldson signing was downright irresponsible. 5 years, $41M with $22M guaranteed in a flooded safety market where LaRon Landry is getting $6M a season (what???), Ed Reed is getting $5M per, Adrian Wilson less than $2M each year, and Kerry Rhodes is still a FA. Jackson was a great signing last year, but Nicks sat out half the season after his big deal and Wright has been a terrible deal in multiple ways. With a flat cap over the next few seasons and Freeman's $8M contract expiring this season and potentially having to pay double-digits to their QB, they look to be heading straight for salary cap hell soon.

1. a pro bowl QB has to fall into your lap.
2. your hc has to know how to use the talent he has.
3. wacky stuff like the Tuck Rule has to influence the outcomes of games.

That sounds easy to shape and control. I really don't know why every owner doesn't follow the Patriots/Kraft model.

There are very few absolutes to the Pats' approach; just orientations and tendencies.

1. They want to run the football organization a certain way; hence they want players who fit.

2. They want consistency in the way they run it, to preserve investment in players, training, and so on.

3. They consider who is on the field on every snap over the course of a season and postseason in considering the value of players, positions, and so on.

4. They try to balance assets such as cap room relatively evenly across seasons.

That kind of generality is all that's written in stone, and even then the stone is soft; any of the above could be violated under special circumstances (except perhaps #3 -- that's just a basic rule for good analysis).

betterthanthealternative said:

Why do you believe that management will choose to do things in such a way as to deliver a couple of 6 win seasons?

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Because I'm smart enough to know that after Brady and Belichick are gone, there are going to be a couple rebuilding season in there. Heck, we'll be lucky if there's only "a couple" rebuilding seasons.

We've been ridiculously spoiled here. Even a couple 9 win, wild card round exit seasons will be seen as abysmal failures.

betterthanthealternative said:

They've figured out how to do otherwise. Kraft didn't just get lucky with BB,

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Uh, yeah he did. Belichick could have just as easily decided to be HC of the NYJ.

betterthanthealternative said:

and BB didn't get lucky with Brady.

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Uh, yeah he did. There were about 200 opportunities for other teams to select Brady ahead of the Patriots. Don't fool yourself into thinking Tom Brady was a part of the Patriots' master plan all along.

betterthanthealternative said:

This isn't a role of the dice any more than innovation is luck at Apple and price leadership is luck at Walmart.

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It's pretty easy to be arrogant about your team when Tom Brady is your QB and Bill Belichick is your coach. Get back to me in 6-8 years when it's Josh McDaniel and Ryan Mallett (or worse).

It's not the model, it's the people. Frankly, it's Bob Kraft first and foremost and as long as he's at the helm the Patriots will be a successful organization.

Most teams and coaches wouldn't have the foresight to see Brady's leadership capability and emerging talent; he would have sat on the bench for most teams. And even fewer would have benched then traded Bledsoe in favor of keeping Brady. It took brains and guts from the coach, and intelligence of the ownership not to meddle. Very few, if any, other franchises would have gone that route.

Brady's selection wasn't luck. It was the natural outcome of a certain philosophy and system for drafting. Why is it that the draft choices that don't make it are held against the Pats, and the ones that do are somehow lucky?

If you read the history of the choice that BB made to resign as HC of the Jets, even though he was under contract with them, and to work with Kraft to make it possible for him to come to New England, you'll know it had nothing to do with Kraft being lucky. Kraft learned a lot through his experiences with Parcells and Carroll and saw that he needed a coach like BB and to leave him alone to run the club. The Jets weren't smart enough to run their operation that way (Parcells was going to run football operations over BB), and BB didn't want to work that way. He chose a smarter ownership.

The Pats are just run better, and that will continue after Brady and BB are gone.

Wolfpack said:

Because I'm smart enough to know that after Brady and Belichick are gone, there are going to be a couple rebuilding season in there. Heck, we'll be lucky if there's only "a couple" rebuilding seasons.

We've been ridiculously spoiled here. Even a couple 9 win, wild card round exit seasons will be seen as abysmal failures.
Uh, yeah he did. Belichick could have just as easily decided to be HC of the NYJ.
Uh, yeah he did. There were about 200 opportunities for other teams to select Brady ahead of the Patriots. Don't fool yourself into thinking Tom Brady was a part of the Patriots' master plan all along.
It's pretty easy to be arrogant about your team when Tom Brady is your QB and Bill Belichick is your coach. Get back to me in 6-8 years when it's Josh McDaniel and Ryan Mallett (or worse).

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betterthanthealternative said:

Most teams and coaches wouldn't have the foresight to see Brady's leadership capability and emerging talent;

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That's exactly correct, and neither did the Patriots. Otherwise they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to draft him.

betterthanthealternative said:

he would have sat on the bench for most teams.

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That's absolutely true, and he sat on the bench for the Patriots unti Mo Lewis unwittingly changed the face of this franchise by knocking Drew Bledsoe into the middle of next week.

betterthanthealternative said:

And even fewer would have benched then traded Bledsoe in favor of keeping Brady. It took brains and guts from the coach, and intelligence of the ownership not to meddle. Very few, if any, other franchises would have gone that route.

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By the time we hit the offseason after Super Bowl 36, there isn't a franchise in the league that would have kept Bledsoe over Brady.

betterthanthealternative said:

Brady's selection wasn't luck. It was the natural outcome of a certain philosophy and system for drafting.

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Yeah. Right. Sure. OK. The Patriots philosophy all along was "let's wait until the 6th round to draft the greatest QB of all time."

betterthanthealternative said:

If you read the history of the choice that BB made to resign as HC of the Jets, even though he was under contract with them, and to work with Kraft to make it possible for him to come to New England, you'll know it had nothing to do with Kraft being lucky. Kraft learned a lot through his experiences with Parcells and Carroll and saw that he needed a coach like BB and to leave him alone to run the club. The Jets weren't smart enough to run their operation that way (Parcells was going to run football operations over BB), and BB didn't want to work that way. He chose a smarter ownership.

The Pats are just run better, and that will continue after Brady and BB are gone.

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It's very easy to be a well run team when you have arguably the greatest HC of all time and arguably the greatest QB of all time. But stop fooling yourself into thinking this was all some sort of master plan that Bob Kraft formulated in 1995. It took an awful lot of luck - and a lot of bad decisions which took place beforehand - to get to where they are today, and you're foolish to think otherwise.

ivanvamp said:

One reason the Pats' way of doing things works is who they have at QB. If they had a regular dude at QB, like Mark Sanchez or Kevin Kolb for example, I doubt they'd see nearly the same kind of success. Yes, we can point to their 2008 season with Cassel, but that year they had one of the easiest schedules imaginable, and I don't think they would have kept that up year after year.

It is a good model, but it helps a lot having #12 in the lineup every week.

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So if Brady is everything and would be the deciding factor in any franchise, why does he voluntarily leave BIG MONEY on the table to play in cold, snowy, suburban Foxboro, Massachusetts 3,000 miles away from his home and family?

Or, does he know something you don't?

I don't think its smart to knock the way the F.O. does things ....this team has won more games over the past decade plus and has been in far more playoff games than any other team.....if the offseason move style isn't broken you don't fix them.

They have always found a way to stay competitive and in the SB hunt so its hard to second guess them,after all how many former Patriots really thrived with their new team?...not many.

Down the line years from now when the team will likely inevitably drop to mediocrity or worse you may ask why aren't they doing this or that...but until then you should respect and sit back and let them continue to put a team together annually...they have done a mighty good job since 2001 and who is to say otherwise?

This business model is only an option if you have a GOAT QB and a good coach.

Otherwise you lose a lot of the leverage and ability to bring in old vets at cheap prices who want rings.

I like how some people assume the Patriots front office outsmarts the other 31 teams year in year out. They're good, but they can only do the things they do because of Brady and BB. If the Patriots front office took over the Jags, for example, players would laugh at their attempts of playing hardball.

It's certainly be an upgrade in terms of talent evaluation and not overpaying, but you wouldn't see the same benefit the Patriots do from doing business the way they do.

mgteich said:

Yes, of course, it great to have one of the top QB's.

Kraft would never have a regular dude at QB. We have had a pro-bowl QB just about since the day Kraft bought the team. When Brady eventually leaves, Kraft will find another pro-bowler.

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Can we stop acting like having Brady was anything but luck? Bledsoe was drafted before Kraft bought the team. They've had a probowler since he bought the team but 12/19 years were Brady. Acting like Kraft is the finder of pro-bowl QBs is absurd, he'll obviously try just like every team tries to have a franchise QB. It's harder than Kraft magically finding us one.

Brady2Moss said:

Can we stop acting like having Brady was anything but luck? Bledsoe was drafted before Kraft bought the team. They've had a probowler since he bought the team but 12/19 years were Brady. Acting like Kraft is the finder of pro-bowl QBs is absurd, he'll obviously try just like every team tries to have a franchise QB. It's harder than Kraft magically finding us one.

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+1 +1 +1 and it's appalling how many people in here think replacing Brady will be as easy as replacing a flat tire.

While the Pats were indeed fortunate to end up with Tom Brady, I think it is also inaccurate to portray it as pure dumb luck. The Pats were the team that scouted him and and the team that selected him, where other teams did not.

I would also suggest that it may be time for a re-reading of Education of a Coach and Patriot Reign by those that are convinced that Belichick would have never made the move from Bledsoe to Brady had it not been for the Mo Lewis hit on Bledsoe.

I will also suggest that NFL football is the ultimate team game, and the suggestion that all credit for all wins goes strictly to the QB of that team is a bit short sighted. For example, in the pre-Dan Snyder years the Redskins won three championships with three different quarterbacks. In the last 43 years the Steelers have had ten starting QBs and have had only seven losing seasons, winning six championships and making it to 15 conference championship games during that time.

It's a lot more complex than simply having a good QB. Winning organizations are based more on skill than blind luck.

jmt57 said:

While the Pats were indeed fortunate to end up with Tom Brady, I think it is also inaccurate to portray it as pure dumb luck. The Pats were the team that scouted him and and the team that selected him, where other teams did not.

I would also suggest that it may be time for a re-reading of Education of a Coach and Patriot Reign by those that are convinced that Belichick would have never made the move from Bledsoe to Brady had it not been for the Mo Lewis hit on Bledsoe.

I will also suggest that NFL football is the ultimate team game, and the suggestion that all credit for all wins goes strictly to the QB of that team is a bit short sighted. For example, in the pre-Dan Snyder years the Redskins won three championships with three different quarterbacks. In the last 43 years the Steelers have had ten starting QBs and have had only seven losing seasons, winning six championships and making it to 15 conference championship games during that time.

It's a lot more complex than simply having a good QB. Winning organizations are based more on skill than blind luck.

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+1. Exactly.

Brady may never have become quite "Tom Brady" on any other team. I am not claiming that absurd "System QB", but I am also not asserting the ridiculous "Brady made the Pats what they are" argument either.

And once again, no one has answered the question:

Why does Brady leave so much money on the table in order to remain in cold, suburban Foxboro, 3,000 miles away from his home? Is it for the glamor?

The posters here who don't want to countenance that very question, do so because they don't want to acknowledge what the ENTIRE New England Patriot franchise has become - - it ain't one person (especially, a person who is giving up tens of millions of dollars in order to cling to the organization).

jmt57 said:

While the Pats were indeed fortunate to end up with Tom Brady, I think it is also inaccurate to portray it as pure dumb luck. The Pats were the team that scouted him and and the team that selected him, where other teams did not.

I would also suggest that it may be time for a re-reading of Education of a Coach and Patriot Reign by those that are convinced that Belichick would have never made the move from Bledsoe to Brady had it not been for the Mo Lewis hit on Bledsoe.

I will also suggest that NFL football is the ultimate team game, and the suggestion that all credit for all wins goes strictly to the QB of that team is a bit short sighted. For example, in the pre-Dan Snyder years the Redskins won three championships with three different quarterbacks. In the last 43 years the Steelers have had ten starting QBs and have had only seven losing seasons, winning six championships and making it to 15 conference championship games during that time.

It's a lot more complex than simply having a good QB. Winning organizations are based more on skill than blind luck.

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I think its wrong to act like they knew what they were doing in selecting him, if they did he would have been taken a few rounds higher since Bill loves to overdraft people he thinks are good (Hello Tavon Wilson).

I dont think I said anything about him not being willing to switch to Brady so not sure what that is all about.

It's a team game, which is why they lose every year when the team isn't good enough around Brady and other teams expose all the flaws that he covers up for in the regular season.

jmt57 said:

While the Pats were indeed fortunate to end up with Tom Brady, I think it is also inaccurate to portray it as pure dumb luck. The Pats were the team that scouted him and and the team that selected him, where other teams did not.

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Brady2Moss said:

I think its wrong to act like they knew what they were doing in selecting him, if they did he would have been taken a few rounds higher since Bill loves to overdraft people he thinks are good (Hello Tavon Wilson).

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That sure looks like a straw man to me.