Agents' Rebuttal to Kraft's Interview

voluntarysaftey said:

What I'd like to know is exactly what Dunn was looking for prior to the first day of free agency.

He's willing to divulge all these details, except the one key piece of information.

If it was the 3/24 that Reiss said, that makes the Patriot's unwillingness to negotiate make complete sense (why bother when there's an astronomical gap).

It also makes what Kraft said accurate (if the gap was only 1m/year they would've closed it)

Although my guess is Dunn is not disclosing it as it would make him look bad


To give both sides the benefit of the doubt; and also responding to borg:

My guess of prior to free agency:
Bill: 2 years, 10 m
Dunn: We're looking for 3/24
Bill: It's 2, 10
Dunn: Any room for negotiation
Bill: No. It is what it is

The above conversation completely makes sense in a vacuum. Both sides unwilling to move off their offer -- and the Patriots standing still as the gap was too big and also Dunn at that point not having any offers to match (you only raise your offer if you have something to fear -- that the player will get a bigger contract in free agency)

If on day 1 of legal tampering this happened:
Dunn: Broncos offered 2, 12. Can you match? If not we'll sign with the Broncos

My guess is Bill would respond with
Bill: Ok, let's sign the paperwork

But instead on day 3 it was
Dunn: We don't have anything else right now, but we still think 3,24 is possible. Can you negotiate?
Bill: No -- you don't have anything else. It is what it is

Then Bill moved on so when they came back and asked to match, it was too late as they'd already committed to Amendola.

Dunn has also not explained why they couldn't have figured out the market value and asked the Patriots to match or part ways during the tampering period. (Not that he owes anyone an explanation but if you're going to blame the other side in the media than you should be giving the entire story or else you'll likely be correctly accused of leaving out context to make yourself look better)
If the Pats were willing to do 2/10+incentives to 2/16; I'd guess that they would've done 2/12 with no incentives

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This is a great post, so I wanted to bump it and emphasize it.

We have two official statements out there now, one from each side. We know where things overlap it's the total truth. The places where they diverge are likely incomplete truths -- it's true to an extent, but there's more information that both sides are withholding that puts things into more context. This post does a great job of putting that together and coming up with likely scenarios.

It seems clear to me that Welker really wanted to be here. It also seems clear to me that Kraft and Belichick both wanted Welker here, but were willing to part with him if it was over their price of "slightly above market". The Pats path there is very consistent with prior deals; that even the record setting deals they did do were for rare exceptional players and didn't blow away previous deals.

Welker's departure is the direct result of a gamble on both sides' part, and a breakdown in communication.

I would still place the most blame on Welker's agent. Whatever difference the sides had prior to the 3-day free agency "preview" period, he should have been able to realize he was wrong by the end and try to work things out with the Pats. He didn't. Welker's at fault for trusting him too much.

The Pats are at fault too, of course, but I think it's less than 50% of the blame. Three mistakes I see here:

1) As mentioned, letting it get this far to begin with and not settling it last summer.

2) Not telling Welker and his agent that the moment the preview period was up, their offer is off the table and they have to move on. Maybe things would have shaken down faster (Kraft's "If Welker called 24 hours sooner" comment; if Welker knew it came down to it, he might have).

3) When confronted with such a reasonable offer from Denver, and knowing they were likely to release Lloyd, not taking the opportunity to match and try to build a different offense featuring both Welker and Amendola. Is a potential Sanders' deal really going to be that much less than a $4M 2013 cap charge on Welker? I know it's not ideal, but they could try to have the 3rd receiver be the bigger, David Givens-type guy and have Amendola be the Deion Branch-type guy, and Welker continue to be Troy Brown.

But que sera sera, can't do anything about this now. Actually, I think the most important development is this -- both Kraft and Welker's agent went out of their way not to try to insult each other, and to try to be respectful of the other, even when blaming the other side. This bodes well for future negotiations with Solder (and Vareen if he pans out) -- we don't Solder walking in 3 years simply because of an agent-ownership fued.

Hammer of Thor said:

This is a great post, so I wanted to bump it and emphasize it.

We have two official statements out there now, one from each side. We know where things overlap it's the total truth. The places where they diverge are likely incomplete truths -- it's true to an extent, but there's more information that both sides are withholding that puts things into more context. This post does a great job of putting that together and coming up with likely scenarios.

It seems clear to me that Welker really wanted to be here. It also seems clear to me that Kraft and Belichick both wanted Welker here, but were willing to part with him if it was over their price of "slightly above market". The Pats path there is very consistent with prior deals; that even the record setting deals they did do were for rare exceptional players and didn't blow away previous deals.

Welker's departure is the direct result of a gamble on both sides' part, and a breakdown in communication.

I would still place the most blame on Welker's agent. Whatever difference the sides had prior to the 3-day free agency "preview" period, he should have been able to realize he was wrong by the end and try to work things out with the Pats. He didn't. Welker's at fault for trusting him too much.

The Pats are at fault too, of course, but I think it's less than 50% of the blame. Three mistakes I see here:

1) As mentioned, letting it get this far to begin with and not settling it last summer.

2) Not telling Welker and his agent that the moment the preview period was up, their offer is off the table and they have to move on. Maybe things would have shaken down faster (Kraft's "If Welker called 24 hours sooner" comment; if Welker knew it came down to it, he might have).

3) When confronted with such a reasonable offer from Denver, and knowing they were likely to release Lloyd, not taking the opportunity to match and try to build a different offense featuring both Welker and Amendola. Is a potential Sanders' deal really going to be that much less than a $4M 2013 cap charge on Welker? I know it's not ideal, but they could try to have the 3rd receiver be the bigger, David Givens-type guy and have Amendola be the Deion Branch-type guy, and Welker continue to be Troy Brown.

But que sera sera, can't do anything about this now. Actually, I think the most important development is this -- both Kraft and Welker's agent went out of their way not to try to insult each other, and to try to be respectful of the other, even when blaming the other side. This bodes well for future negotiations with Solder (and Vareen if he pans out) -- we don't Solder walking in 3 years simply because of an agent-ownership fued.

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Personally, I think the Pats blew it. They figured Wes would go to a team that is not a threat to them going to the SB. I have a feeling the idea of WW raising the Lombardi with Peyton Manning makes them sick.

I wonder how big a deal this would be if he went to Tampa Bay vs Denver?

This is really one of the first times that one of their FA's has gone to a team that could actually hurt the Pats. Vinateiri (sp?) is the only FA that went to a real contender.

aabtec said:

Personally, I think the Pats blew it. They figured Wes would go to a team that is not a threat to them going to the SB. I have a feeling the idea of WW raising the Lombardi with Peyton Manning makes them sick.

I wonder how big a deal this would be if he went to Tampa Bay vs Denver?

This is really one of the first times that one of their FA's has gone to a team that could actually hurt the Pats. Vinateiri (sp?) is the only FA that went to a real contender.

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The Patriots offered Welker the same kind of deal that Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald got, all you have to do is multiply it by 10. You can't ask much more than that from them. He was their first choice and did their very best, it's a shame Welker is so greedy.

aabtec said:

Personally, I think the Pats blew it. They figured Wes would go to a team that is not a threat to them going to the SB. I have a feeling the idea of WW raising the Lombardi with Peyton Manning makes them sick.

I wonder how big a deal this would be if he went to Tampa Bay vs Denver?

This is really one of the first times that one of their FA's has gone to a team that could actually hurt the Pats. Vinateiri (sp?) is the only FA that went to a real contender.

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Pats undoubtedly did blow it in the sense that they preferred to have Wes here and failed to manage the negotiation clock (starting years ago and culminating in last weeks fiasco) well enough to seize the opportunity of the market drop, HOWEVER I'm certain that they were more than aware that Denver was a contender for his services, so that's NOT how they blew it.

Hey Aab...people have been a1sking about you over at the Web Crossing Pats thread...good to see you're still around, old friend

Welker should have signed a 4-5 yr big boy contract last year. They couldn't agree and he got tagged. Then Denver & the Pats offer a 2 yr deal. In 2015 Welker has very limited upside on a subsequent deal. Also if Kraft is to be believed, you have to assume the Broncos go to the bottom (read cut salary) when manning retires which could be after this upcoming season so Welker has a lot of risk.

I don't see how the tag can't get reworked. Players must hate it.

Regarding the bold section -- problem is, I don't believe that was ever on the table. Weren't the Pats offering no more than 2 years last year as well? And Welker wanted 3 or more. So you can't blame Welker for not signing what wasn't there.

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Yes there was, according to Bert Breer there was a 5 year offer with 15 million guaranteed, dont remember the other specifics off the top of my head but it was above what the market currently ended up being and was more than hes going to make now. Wes' camp rejected it thinking it was too low, they misjudged the market, they're not the only ones to misjudge the market so it is what it is, Im moving on .

We made a counter-offer for the same term and same maximum dollar amount as their offer and it was rejected.

This discussion took place on Tuesday, before the start of free agency. At that point, Dunn probably knew that 3/24 wasn't realistic. If he thought 3/24was possible, there's no way he counters at 2/16. Likewise, the Patriots knew from that point on that Welker's number was somewhere south of Dunn's counter.

No one really knows when negotiations with Amendola start, but given the timing, it's reasonable to assume Kraft knew before closing the Amendola deal that they could get Welker at less than 2/16. The rationale that Dunn's 3/24 demand forced the Patriots to look elsewhere doesn't fly.

voluntarysaftey said:

What I'd like to know is exactly what Dunn was looking for prior to the first day of free agency.

He's willing to divulge all these details, except the one key piece of information.

If it was the 3/24 that Reiss said, that makes the Patriot's unwillingness to negotiate make complete sense (why bother when there's an astronomical gap).

It also makes what Kraft said accurate (if the gap was only 1m/year they would've closed it)

Although my guess is Dunn is not disclosing it as it would make him look bad



To give both sides the benefit of the doubt; and also responding to borg:

My guess of prior to free agency:
Bill: 2 years, 10 m
Dunn: We're looking for 3/24
Bill: It's 2, 10
Dunn: Any room for negotiation
Bill: No. It is what it is

The above conversation completely makes sense in a vacuum. Both sides unwilling to move off their offer -- and the Patriots standing still as the gap was too big and also Dunn at that point not having any offers to match (you only raise your offer if you have something to fear -- that the player will get a bigger contract in free agency)

If on day 1 of legal tampering this happened:
Dunn: Broncos offered 2, 12. Can you match? If not we'll sign with the Broncos

My guess is Bill would respond with
Bill: Ok, let's sign the paperwork

But instead on day 3 it was
Dunn: We don't have anything else right now, but we still think 3,24 is possible. Can you negotiate?
Bill: No -- you don't have anything else. It is what it is

Then Bill moved on so when they came back and asked to match, it was too late as they'd already committed to Amendola.

Dunn has also not explained why they couldn't have figured out the market value and asked the Patriots to match or part ways during the tampering period. (Not that he owes anyone an explanation but if you're going to blame the other side in the media than you should be giving the entire story or else you'll likely be correctly accused of leaving out context to make yourself look better)
If the Pats were willing to do 2/10+incentives to 2/16; I'd guess that they would've done 2/12 with no incentives

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Read the article the maximum dollar amount was set and it sounds like they might have accepted ,but Dunn wanted to negotiate the structure of that deal , and that the Patriots were not even willing to negotiate.

FWIW, Tom E Curran said that David Dunn was doing a smear campaign to the press behind the scenes all last week and this is what prompted Kraft to react.

Curran and Reiss have all the credibility of Baghdad Bob. If the billionaire Kraft truly wanted Wes on this team, he'd be on this team. No wonder we got hoodwinked into the Iraq War under false pretenses. So many willing sheep are ready to believe whateva massa sez. It sucks but it is what it is. Pro sports is a business at the end of the day and BB and RK are straight up cold stone gangstas. We already knew this. I'm moving on. Let's hope Amendola is a gamer. We still need 2 more WR's at this point.

Run DMC said:

Curran and Reiss have all the credibility of Baghdad Bob. If the billionaire Kraft truly wanted Wes on this team, he'd be on this team. No wonder we got hoodwinked into the Iraq War under false pretenses. So many willing sheep are ready to believe whateva massa sez. It sucks but it is what it is. Pro sports is a business at the end of the day and BB and RK are straight up cold stone gangstas. We already knew this. I'm moving on. Let's hope Amendola is a gamer. We still need 2 more WR's at this point.

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How dare you speak against our fearless leaders !

Run DMC said:

Curran and Reiss have all the credibility of Baghdad Bob. If the billionaire Kraft truly wanted Wes on this team, he'd be on this team. No wonder we got hoodwinked into the Iraq War under false pretenses. So many willing sheep to believe whateva massa sez. It sucks but it is what it is. Pro sports is a business at the end of the day and BB and RK are straight up cold stone gangstas. We already knew this. I'm moving on. Let's hope Amendola is a gamer. We still need 2 more WR's at this point.

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You are aware that the billionaire Kraft signed a contract limiting the total amount of money he can spend on players, right? So the fact that he's a billionaire is completely irrelevant, and in fact detracts from the big picture.

If the Pats never spent to the cap (like Cincinnati and usually Buffalo), I would complain. Billionaire Kraft instead spends to the cap (top quarter in league payroll last year), he just spends more on the Arringtons of the world and less on the stars. You may not like it, but that's his philosophy, and they've only had two losing seasons since he bought the team so it seems like it's working to me.

Run DMC said:

Curran and Reiss have all the credibility of Baghdad Bob. If the billionaire Kraft truly wanted Wes on this team, he'd be on this team. No wonder we got hoodwinked into the Iraq War under false pretenses. So many willing sheep are ready to believe whateva massa sez. It sucks but it is what it is. Pro sports is a business at the end of the day and BB and RK are straight up cold stone gangstas. We already knew this. I'm moving on. Let's hope Amendola is a gamer. We still need 2 more WR's at this point.

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I love it when a reporter says something that people don't want to hear, they are shoddy sources. I am sure if Curran said that his Patriots sources said the Pats really didn't want Welker and everything they have done is for show, you would be calling him his generation's William R Murrow.

Personally, I don't know if his sources are feeding him BS, but he said Dunn spoke directly to him this weekend. So he is probably talking about what Dunn is telling him. I seriously doubt he would outright lie about that.

Is it silly to think the Pats "inside reporters" wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds? Does anyone on this board live in the real world? Ya know the one where the ass kissers get ahead? The suspension of reality on this board never ceases to amaze.

kudzif said:

Read the article the maximum dollar amount was set and it sounds like they might have accepted ,but Dunn wanted to negotiate the structure of that deal , and that the Patriots were not even willing to negotiate.

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And the Pats offer was still better than Denver's in the end, 3/24 was unrealistic, they thought they could do better and ended up with basically a one year guaranteed offer with Denver, if both offers were on the table at the same time and Wes was told to pick one or the other, which one do you think he's pick?

Run DMC said:

Is it silly to think the Pats "inside reporters" wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds? Does anyone on this board live in the real world? Ya know the one where the ass kissers get ahead? The suspension of reality on this board never ceases to amaze.

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But don't you see how the same thing applies in reverse as well? Take Borges for example. Do you think he would want to bite the hand that feeds him (player agents) and lose his only source of NFL access?

Not everything is black and white. All of these sources have some form of bias. You can't just choose one and call it unbiased because it matches with your preconceived notion, and the ones that conflict with your notions are biased. You need to piece all of these things together to gather the truth.

This applies to everything around here; all extreme black-and-white and overreactions galore. Why can't shades of gray exist? Just look at the over reactions on this site in response to the Houston playoff game, contrasted one week later with the Baltimore game.

Run DMC said:

Is it silly to think the Pats "inside reporters" wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds? Does anyone on this board live in the real world? Ya know the one where the ass kissers get ahead? The suspension of reality on this board never ceases to amaze.

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You do realize that agents and players feed the writers just as much information as the team does. Besides, it one thing to side with the team. It is another thing to make up things to smear Welker's agent. David Dunn could sue Curran if he is making this stuff up.

Well Rob, I think we concluded previously the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I'm willing to accept that. Wes is gone. I didn't like the way he was treated. He was a helluva player and seemed like a genuinely good guy so I'm bummed to see him go.

Re: Welker's Agent: "It was take it or leave it" from Patriots

DaBruinz said:

Amendola was NOT signed prior to the start of free agency. In fact, his contract wasn't filed until THURSDAY. The Pats didn't reach an agreement with Amendola until AFTER Welker's initial refusal.

Secondly, the offer to Welker was two years/10 million (more than Amendola will make in the 1st 2 years) with the ability to make it to 16M.

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You're just spouting Pats PR messaging.

1. There is a newspaper report that Amendola's deal was done first; the Pats had moved on before Welker ever came back to give them a chance to match. Amendola was Option #1, he was not the backup plan. Playing earmuffs doesn't change the reported facts.

2. The Welker offer was 2 years at 10 million, which was LOWER than what Denver offered. It was also a 'take it or leave it' according to his agents.

The problem with WW's agent is that he misjudged the market and is now engaging in damage control in an effort to salvage his reputation.What I cannot understand is why during the legal tampering period he did not guage the market and counter with a realistic offer prior to the FA period. I guess he was telling WW that he could get 8 million a year guaranteed until it was too late. WW obviously did not believe he could continue to perform at the same level that would allow him to achieve the bonuses. As far as I know as long as they weren't tied into making clutch catches in the post season, he had a realistic oportunity.
For all of you who do not remember the pre WW era, in 2006, Branch forced his way out and the Pats were left with scrubs as receivers. Some how I think they learned their lesson and were not going to get caught in the same predicament.
Too bad for WW. At least he has the opportunity as the world's best regular season slot receiver to catch balls from the world's greatest regular season QB. However don't expect anything from them in the playofs unless the put a dome in Denver.