Am I the only one who does NOT want Welker back?

basing my analysis on the last game I saw, yes...the Pats receivers all sauck...cut 'em all

in fact, cut Wilfork too...what did HE do last Sunday except take up space...let's just get all new players for everywhere...THAT will fix everything

Dr Pain said:

his performance is very streaky now

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How in the world is Welker's performance streaky? Look up consistency in the dictionary and you'll see his picture.

supafly said:

And if you look at the offensive numbers and scoring output, you'll clearly see that this current offense is indeed more efficient than the SB winning ones.

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I this fact is getting overlooked a bit lately, with the recitations of how few points the offense has put up in this recent string of playoff losses. While it's true that there's more of a drop-off in offensive production now compared to the regular season, what's truly lacking is the defense stepping up and balancing that equation.

Of course, losing Jones and Talib didn't help matters. This defense is close.

The most useless receiver on the Patriots is clearly Branch, if anybody, he should be drawing the huge majority of Patriot fan ire. The guy is a waste of space on the field.

bradytovereen said:

Defense and timely offense win championships. The 01-03-04 offenses didn't have the talent or regular season production the current teams have had, but they made the plays when it counted most. I remember Belichick going for it on 4th down at about our own 45 yard line on an opening drive in the Peyton Manning 4 INT snow game, because he was that confident we would get the job done, and if we didn't, would make a stop on defense.

This team will be a SB contender as long as Belichick and Brady are on the team, but in 01-04, especially 03 and 04, we're forgetting, we had the best team in the league by far. I don't know about you guys, but I watched those games just knowing that we were going to win because no one was even on our level. And that was due to the dominating, physical defense and a more timely offense.

Welker to me represents what's wrong with the current team...puts up a bunch of regular season numbers and makes drops when it matters the most. Overpaying him would be a tragedy.

The Ravens beat us the same way we used to beat the Colts. The Ravens offense wasn't anything amazing, they just didn't turn the ball over and capitalized on their opportunities. That's the formula for a championship more often than not.

A lot of people were upset at the "we physical, they finesse" comments by the Ravens players before the game, but that's the same thing we used to say about the Colts.

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I do not understand this statement. totally . In all of our losses wes welker has given us 100 yds plus. The failure is the team is not executing. your solution is to remove people who perform under playoff pressure and get clocked and play through injury to fix other guys who do not perform . By getting rid of wes production you feel , the running game will be improved , the 2nd TE will light it up and lloyd who will be covered by the #1CB of the other team will light the score board as wes has left the team.

Where the heck for hernandaz,ridley/vereen,llyod, hoo-man against the ravens? or the gaints ? ...Your pla to fix them all is remove wes welker production from the team!

So we are going to blame Branch cause he is past it? Sounds like we should be looking elsewhere since Branch is something of an emergency receiver now. Seems to me, if we want to blame somebody or something for Branch being on the field it should be upstairs where decisions are made.

In part this thread is about the overall capabilities of the Pats receiver corp when Gronk is not on the field. We seem to have a receiver corp made up of guys that have particular and very similar roles to each other. Without Gronk their overall effectiveness appears to suffer greatly. Yet there is no other TE that you could fit into the TE spot that comes close to doing what Gronk does....hence the often seen opinion on these pages that we need someone at the WR spot that can fill this growing rift between Gronk and the rest of the receiver corp. It is however true that it is Branch that should fall off the back end of the wagon when that happens.

I want Welker back just not for $10 million a season

satz said:

I do not understand this statement. totally . In all of our losses wes welker has given us 100 yds plus. The failure is the team is not executing. your solution is to remove people who perform under playoff pressure and get clocked and play through injury to fix other guys who do not perform . By getting rid of wes production you feel , the running game will be improved , the 2nd TE will light it up and lloyd who will be covered by the #1CB of the other team will light the score board as wes has left the team.

Where the heck for hernandaz,ridley/vereen,llyod, hoo-man against the ravens? or the gaints ? ...Your pla to fix them all is remove wes welker production from the team!

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Don't you see it will be addition through subtraction? Get rid of your most durable and productive guy and the non productive and/or underperforming players will play better through osmosis! Get rid of Welker and Edelemen won't be so injury prone!

People are acting as if every other player was a beast against the Ravens and Welker did absolutely nothing. Talk about a scapegoat for everyone else's poor performance...

I still think Brady kicks in bucks by restructuring his deal to keep his security blanket, Welker here. Tom is aging. I don't think he wants to face the next couple of years without seeing Wes over there open about eight yards downfield. True he has to put it right on Wes's numbers but that is a whole different kettle of fish than "got nowhere to put the ball" cause Gronk is on the mend again.

PatsSox363804 said:

I want Welker back just not for $10 million a season

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Why ?. No one is able to answer this question. unless we hit a point where we cannot afford this guy i want to really see a cap space of zero or close to zero.

we have 20 million, which means you can sign him for a 3 yr/27 million with a signing bonus of 12 million . prorated his cap number will be 3-5 million depending on how you word the contract.

Are you worried that kraft running the 3rd most expensive franchise worth billions cannot afford it.i pay to goto the game and spend 50$ for parking. i will hate for the team to tell me they cannot afford the player as they do not have money while making billions.

Welker is NOT the reason this team has not won a Superbowl. He's a huge reason why this team has consistently been one of the best offenses, and he is not replaceable. The offense will take a huge hit if he is not brought back.

One poster commented that the Pats are predictable with Welker in playoffs. That is NOT Welker's fault, he isn't calling the plays. Welker is dominant in the 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. Does anyone else remember the offense pre-Welker in 2006? That is what it will look like if Welker is not re-signed again.

supafly said:

We had a downfield threat in the 2007 SB. He had one of the most dominant years ever for any kind of outside threat in the history of the game, and set records doing so.

And if you look at the offensive numbers and scoring output, you'll clearly see that this current offense is indeed, more efficient than the SB winning ones.

Maybe you need a memory refresher during those SB years?

2001

Won 16-13 vs OAK in the divisional round

Won 24-17 vs PIT in the AFCCG (defense scored a ST TD, so offense scores 17)

Won 20-17 vs STL in the SB (defense scored a TD, so offense scored 13)

2003

Won 17-14 vs TEN in the divisional round

Won 24-14 vs IND in the AFCCG

2004

Won 20-3 vs IND in the divisional round

Won 24-21 vs PHI in the SB




There are SEVEN games in that era where the defense gave up an average of 14 points a game, and won ALL 7 of them.

In comparison, the offense scored an average of 18.7 points in those 7 games, all which were wins.

When you look at 7 key wins during that 3 yr stretch of the dynasty, and see that we won on average by a score of 18.7 to 14, I fail to see what you are getting at?

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Now I don't want this to be construed as me arguing coolguy's point because it's not, but to be fair those 7 key wins also happen to be the 7 lowest scoring games from that 9 game period. If I take the 7 lowest scoring games from the most recent 9 games I get an average of 17.6 points. I understand the the recent teams have been handcuffed by the number of possessions and the older teams got helped out by the defense, but in the end if you can score more points with a team built the way those old teams were what's the point of a highpowered offense?

The issue appears to be needing some cash to also bring in a true outside/deep threat WR because there is a big drop off in the overall productivity of this offense and this receiver corp when Gronk is not there.

Welker does not provide enough juice to fill the top slot in the receiver corp when Gronk is out. Welker is what he is. That is why even BB makes such a point of often repeating that the slot role is a specialized role. You can be the greatest slot receiver of all time which is likely what Wes will be when he retires and a slot receiver still cannot fill that role. Yet there is no way that you can expect to have a reserve Gronk just sitting there waiting to step in for Gronk and a WR that can actually be effective as a receiver in the larger expanse of field where Gronk plays would make this offense that much more potent even when Gronk is there. Really they should be able to afford both if they can get a guy from the draft and they should be able to bring Talib back as well. However it would not surprise me if it boils down to Brady restructuring for the Pats to do all three.

If the Pats do that then they truly have a potent and very versatile receiver corp. They can rotate Lloyd and the new WR. They can rotate Hernandez in as a second TE or occasional WR occasional RB. They can sub in Julian for Wes, Ballard for Gronk and Branch finally falls off the back of the wagon. Lloyd probably losses some playing time but Lloyd has a very specific role to play. I don't see Lloyd as an every down WR, not in the offense I would like the Pats to have.

satz said:

Why ?. No one is able to answer this question. unless we hit a point where we cannot afford this guy i want to really see a cap space of zero or close to zero.

we have 20 million, which means you can sign him for a 3 yr/27 million with a signing bonus of 12 million . prorated his cap number will be 3-5 million depending on how you word the contract.

Are you worried that kraft running the 3rd most expensive franchise worth billions cannot afford it.i pay to goto the game and spend 50$ for parking. i will hate for the team to tell me they cannot afford the player as they do not have money while making billions.

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Answer: Because you cannot have the right tackle that can save Bradys ass: Vollmer and cannot sign Talib or an equivalent you lose one of those two probably both for a guy that isn't getting you over the top.

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! said:

Now I don't want this to be construed as me arguing coolguy's point because it's not, but to be fair those 7 key wins also happen to be the 7 lowest scoring games from that 9 game period. If I take the 7 lowest scoring games from the most recent 9 games I get an average of 17.6 points. I understand the the recent teams have been handcuffed by the number of possessions and the older teams got helped out by the defense, but in the end if you can score more points with a team built the way those old teams were what's the point of a highpowered offense?

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The '85 Bears gave up 38 points in the Dolphins game. If they'd been able to put up 39 points or more in that game, they'd have had an undefeated season. The '72 Dolphins, on the other hand, had games where they scored only 16 points, but the defense stepped up and held the line, and they had games where they allowed 24 points, but they were able to put 28 on the board.

Whether you're built as a great offense or a great defense, you're eventually going to need help from the other side of the ball.

Brady2Moss said:

Answer: Because you cannot have the right tackle that can save Bradys ass: Vollmer and cannot sign Talib or an equivalent you lose one of those two probably both for a guy that isn't getting you over the top.

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Vollmer walking doesn't harm the Patriots chances of winning to any significant degree. Welker walking, on the other hand, does.

Forest for the trees....

satz said:

Why ?. No one is able to answer this question. unless we hit a point where we cannot afford this guy i want to really see a cap space of zero or close to zero.

we have 20 million, which means you can sign him for a 3 yr/27 million with a signing bonus of 12 million . prorated his cap number will be 3-5 million depending on how you word the contract.

Are you worried that kraft running the 3rd most expensive franchise worth billions cannot afford it.i pay to goto the game and spend 50$ for parking. i will hate for the team to tell me they cannot afford the player as they do not have money while making billions.

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First - I want Welker back. Great smart player who has been freakishly durable. I think Welker is a good guy and a role model and that teams should consider these factors when decididing how far to take a risk on large contracts. I doubt Welker would sign for 3 yr 27 million, but your proposal is pretty close to my armchair analysis of the upper end where I would go to.

The reason why I think the Patriots should be careful on how much they spend becuase it part of the "Patriot Way. " Set a value for a position and player and they keep contracts in that range. Like you I want to seem the team spend to the cap. I think they have been OK at this. They are not as generous as they hold themselves out to be, but not as cheap as often portrayed. I want to see Welker back and I hope he and his people see that his ability to make money off the field here is enough reason to offset the top dollar offer he will get on the street as I am sure some team will be willing to pay more than the Pats.

aluminum seats said:

How in the world is Welker's performance streaky? Look up consistency in the dictionary and you'll see his picture.

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No he goes through quaters where he is just not right.

BB4PRez said:

First - I want Welker back. Great smart player who has been freakishly durable. I think Welker is a good guy and a role model and that teams should consider these factors when decididing how far to take a risk on large contracts. I doubt Welker would sign for 3 yr 27 million, but your proposal is pretty close to my armchair analysis of the upper end where I would go to.

The reason why I think the Patriots should be careful on how much they spend becuase it part of the "Patriot Way. " Set a value for a position and player and they keep contracts in that range. Like you I want to seem the team spend to the cap. I think they have been OK at this. They are not as generous as they hold themselves out to be, but not as cheap as often portrayed. I want to see Welker back and I hope he and his people see that his ability to make money off the field here is enough reason to offset the top dollar offer he will get on the street as I am sure some team will be willing to pay more than the Pats.

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Are players not named Brady, Rodgers, or Manning getting significant endorsement $$$$, enough to make up for the millions they likely won't earn by taking home town discounts in a high tax market. Doubt it. The second most productive receiver in the league is gonna get PAID. Welker is gonna be on the receiving end of brain rattling tackles no matter where he plays or who is throwing him the ball. Can't see him taking $5-10 mill less for the privilege of getting his brain scrambled in NE....Its a business and players are independent contractors. . The last game they play is the last time 95% of these players will sniff an oversized check again. And don't think for a minute their agents aren't selfishly hammering that point home during every conversation. Welker played hardball last year. Do you really think he is now ready to leave money on the table?

BB4PRez said:

The reason why I think the Patriots should be careful on how much they spend becuase it part of the "Patriot Way. " Set a value for a position and player and they keep contracts in that range.

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I hope not , this is a very flawed approach. every team in NFL has flaws. you never weaken a area of strength on some mythcial position number. so this year for example .between the numbers the team has spend
9.5 on wes, 6.6 million on hernandaz and 8.6 million gronk. the TE and Wes operate in the same areas in most cases. alot of mula ....just making a pt the 9.5 million guy had more production, played more snaps and did a good job compared to the 15 million TE position.