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Another big drop by Welker


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While I agree Welker made some bad drops, I do not think that was the reason we lost the game. The defense gave up too many points in the last two quarters.
 
Never saw that coming, Welker is a "system receiver." What the hell does that mean?

The system you must be referring to is the one where you can plug any schmoe in there at the slot receiver position and get 134 receptions for 1,602 yards over an 18-game schedule like Wes delivered in 2012-13.

What a system! I suppose anybody you stick in there at the slot would have recorded five of the top 25 regular seasons all time in receptions, including the second most in a season by any receiver in 2009.

NFL Single-Season Receptions Leaders - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I must say Marvin Harrison's 143 catches in 16 games is a stunning record to think about. That record will probably stand for a long, long time.

Do you think Welker would have his numbers without Brady throwing to him? He should be a complement to this offense, not the main focus. That is an issue with the offense not Welker. Maybe I am just not articulate enough for the average person to understand what I say.
 
Sorry I didn't go through every dam page to see other Wes Welker threads. Merge it then if having another discussion gets your panties in a whirl. So now I posted a stupid thread. This is why I don't post that much. This site used to be a fun site where people could post what they felt like without being personally attacked. I'm out of here. And before anyone else posts "Good Riddance" you can Eff off.


Sophie's choice. Talib or Welker?

Talib should be the #1 priority this off-season, not Welker


Both are right there on the front page.


As for panties in a whirl, take a look in the mirror. You posted the exact kind of thread that would be expected in a post-game overreaction, knowing it would be looked at with some negative posts (hence your "flame away" at the end), and then you tried turning everything on the people who would respond to it in a less than positive way...

Note a response of yours from this very thread:


So I make an observation and some DOUCHEBAG comes and makes a disparaging remark. The Patriots losing really bring out the ugly in some people.

Sauce for the goose.
 
I must say Marvin Harrison's
Interesting name to bring up.
Seems to me MH was another WR who was "clutch" until the team needed him to be "clutch" and then he became basically invisible.

Pump up those stats.
PatsColts fans love them.
 
Dude you're in CA where it's likely sunny and 80 degrees. Its a bashmillion below zero in MA...no need to be so cranky.:D

Maybe I have an aversion to personal attacks.
 
The biggest question is why did we switch from man to man press coverage in the first half to playing the Pats patented soft zone coverage and allow flacco to tear us up underneath. Obviously the big plays werent going to be there with the wind as you saw Flacco trying to make them and they were no where close, so why let him start tearing us up underneath
 
There's no doubt that Welker is a remarkable receiver, with incredible durability, and that he's been one of the most reliable and consistent players on the team over the past 6 years. It's hard to argue against that, or to criticize the player.

But I think it's also hard to deny that Welker has a limited catching radius and zone of effectiveness, and that he has had some key misses in big play situations where he has been the primary target. I suspect that as he gets older, those problems will only increase, as his hand strength subtly diminishes.

Do I think that Welker is phenomenal? Yes. Would I love him to be part of this team? Yes. But am I convinced that making him the primary receiving option in clutch situations is the most likely route to another SB? Probably not.

It's not Welker's fault that Gronk was injured, or Hernandez regressed somewhat this year after his injury. Welker's been a battler and done all that was asked to him. He's not Super Man.

But I do question whether, in a tight cap environment, and with a number of other "move" based receiving options, we might be better off spending on a younger, bigger, more physical receiver. We have enough guys capable of operating effectively in Welker's territory and being reasonable receiving options that we could probably spread a lot of his workload around between Hernandez, Vereen, Edelman, Woodhead and Demps. None would be a Welker, but collectively I'm not sure we would lose that much. But none of those guys can provide the big, physical receiving presence that we need. Only Gronk currently does that, and without him we struggle against more physical teams.

I don't know the answer. I think Welker deserves to be paid, and I'm sure he will continue to produce. But I also expect that he'll continue to have some drops in key situations (as well as making plays in many other key situations) if we continue to rely on him in the clutch the way we have.

I don't know the answer and I'm not arguing either way. It's a hard problem.

Great post and represent my sentiments exactly.
 
Do you think Welker would have his numbers without Brady throwing to him? He should be a complement to this offense, not the main focus. That is an issue with the offense not Welker. Maybe I am just not articulate enough for the average person to understand what I say.

Even with some of the worst QBs in the NFL throwing to him in Miami in 2006, he still had a ~70/~700 season.

With Matt Cassel throwing to him he had 111/1,165; in 2007 he had 112/1,175.

So, yes, I think he would have most of those numbers in any competent system.
 
Sorry I didn't go through every dam page to see other Wes Welker threads. Merge it then if having another discussion gets your panties in a whirl. So now I posted a stupid thread. This is why I don't post that much. This site used to be a fun site where people could post what they felt like without being personally attacked. I'm out of here. And before anyone else posts "Good Riddance" you can Eff off.

Good Riddance.
 
Do you think Welker would have his numbers without Brady throwing to him? He should be a complement to this offense, not the main focus. That is an issue with the offense not Welker. Maybe I am just not articulate enough for the average person to understand what I say.

Bill- you are correct to a point but here is what frustrates me about the Brady observation- the Pats have had notable and/or abysmal WR failures despite the fact that one of the GOAT was throwing them the ball. If all itook was Brady for a WR to produce Chad Jackson, Ocho, etc would still be on the team.

While Welker is not the big WR prototype very few have his skill set and even fewer have his durability...to dismiss either would be short sighted, to dismiss BOTH would be foolish as to what he brings to the team. If you're looking to replace an underperforming WR start with Lloyd. Note that I think Lloyd played ok but you don't keep him ahead of Welker.
 
Maybe I have an aversion to personal attacks.
Your opinion was attacked (but when you make a statement that we will never win a SB with Wes Welker, what do you expect?). That is very different than a personal attack.
 
Maybe I have an aversion to personal attacks.

You clearly don't mind making them yourself:

....So I make an observation and some DOUCHEBAG comes and makes a disparaging remark. The Patriots losing really bring out the ugly in some people.

You only seem to have an aversion to them if you perceive yourself to be on the receiving end. Also, unless I missed something in a post, nobody had made a personal attack against you.
 
At risk of getting attacked by the Welker lovers, let me say this. As long as Wes Welker is the focus of this offense we will never win the SB. Sure he is a talented player, but he still drops a lot of easy passes. Never mind the Super Bowl. If Welker catches that ball in the third quarter at the fifty, the Patriot would likely have scored and one more score would have kept momentum on our side. Welker has dropped an easy pass at least once a game. And Loydd has been a bust as far as I'm concerned. This team had 47 drops this season. That's 3 a game. That is way too many. It's one thing to pad your stats in the regular season with screen passes, but that's not enough in the post-season. We have a team of slot receivers. We need big fast wide receivers that can go downfield and jump and fight for the ball. The receivers we have may be good enough to get us in the post season, but they are not good enough to win it all.

I would offer Welker a 2 year, 10 Million dollar contract. Take it or leave it. He was not worth 9 Million a year. If he wants more let someone else overpay for him. If he goes elsewhere, he will not do as well without Brady and this system.

OK. Flame away.


What a great post. Right on the money. While they getting rid of Welker they should also dump Brady and Wilfork and pay Arrington 20 million a year and Edelman 15 a year. Great post, keep up the great work.
 
Do you think Welker would have his numbers without Brady throwing to him? He should be a complement to this offense, not the main focus. That is an issue with the offense not Welker. Maybe I am just not articulate enough for the average person to understand what I say.

Good question. Would Welker have his numbers without Brady? There are only five or six quarterbacks in the league who can read a defense and check down three or four options on every play. I'd say that Welker would get in the neighborhood of 100 catches if he were playing with Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, and Matt Stafford. He might also be as productive with Andrew Luck.

Think about this statistic: in 2007 Randy Moss was the focal point of the Patriots offense and dominated the league as a wideout - Moss had 98 catches. Welker had 112 in 2007.

If you put Welker in the slot in Detroit with Calvin Johnson outside, Stafford would definitely get Welker the ball 7-8 per game. Welker is that special at his position.

Do I think Welker should be the featured receiver in any offense? No. That wasn't the intention in 2012 with the Patriots. The plan was to go with the two tight ends, Welker, Llloyd and the backfield. If they'd had a full complement for any length of time, Welker probably would be down around 90 catches this year. When AH went down early and Gronk late, it changed everything and Brady/McDaniels had to go with what they had.
 
Listening to Mangini on Mike and Mike and he appeared cool on the importance of Welker and the need for NE to sign him.

He seemed to think the size of his next contract would be a big factor and that NE will have other, possibly better, options next year.

Even suggested NE may be stronger offensively next year.
 
Of course every one doesn't get my point. Yes Wes Welker is a great receiver. We would have been no where without him. But he should be a complement in the offense. How many Super Bowls have we won with Wes Welker. None. The teams that win now have big receivers that fight for the ball. The Patriots do not have that. We need more than Wes Welker on this offense or we will never win it all. Sorry if you find it offensive to question a player's worth and disagree with how to change this offense going forward.

Then you could have stated your point a lot more clearly, as you do now, rather than focusing on a drop or two as "the cause" of a multi-faceted loss.

Of course we need more than Wes Welker on this offense or we will never win it all. That's not where you were, until you were (correctly) blasted.

In 2007 we had Moss. If we had also had Gronk, or Hern, or Ridley, any one of these, then the Tyree can make helmet catches all day and it probably wouldn't have mattered.
 
Interesting Stats on Welker.

Catch % Targets
2007- 77% 145
2008- 74% 149
2009- 75% 162
2010- 69% 123 (coming off injury so...)
2011- 70% 173
2012- 67% 175

Clearly his targets have gone up and his % of catches have gone down. Could be age. Could be defenses, extending his routes, etc.

His YAC and overall YPC was fine.

For the hell of it, I checked Gronks %s...His was down as well. In 2010, 2011, he was 71% and 72%. This year he was 68%.

Brady, while still dominant, did have the lowest comp % since 2006.

Pats did run the ball more than they have in years so I wonder if it was a rhythm thing...

Who knows.
 
How would the Pats have fared without Welker this season?

It's easy to hypothetically play fantasy football and say we need to sign Megatron, Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson but that's never going to happen.

that depends on what other WR they would have spent the 9+M on
 
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