My Blueprint For the Pats

manxman2601 · Dec 3, 2012

mayoclinic said:
???

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that DL in a waste of a high draft pick? Or are you down on some players in particular (e.g., Kawann Short)?

As I've stated earlier in this thread, the defensive guys that I could see the Pats possibly spending a pick in the 32 range on include:

- Star Lotulelei, DT, Utah - will be a top 10 pick, so it's not realistic
- Johnathan Hankins, DT, Ohio St. - will probably be a top 15 pick
- Louis Nix, DT, Notre Dame - probably won't come out; if he does, will probably be a top 20 pick
- Sheldon Richardson, DT/DE, Missouri - some major question marks, and will probably be a top 20 pick, anyway
- Jesse Williams, DT, Alabama
- Dion Jordan, DE, Oregon - unlikely that BB would take someone with his skill set this early, but not out of the question
- Ziggy Ansah, DE, BYU - it all depends on the Pats' eval, and whether he's available; plenty of ceiling
- Alec Ogletree, LB, Georgia - may not be available, and would the Pats take another LB that high?

I could add in someone like Sam Montgomery of LSU, though I would guess he'll be long gone. I think that if any of those players are available when the Pats pick they deserve serious consideration. The only offensive player who I personally have rated that highly is Jonathan Cooper, and he would obviously also have to be in the mix if he were available.

If the Pats had more draft picks I could see them potentially trading up again. But with so few picks it seems unlikely. And it all depends on how certain they are.

I do think that it's unlikely that we'll see a "wasted pick" in the 1st round. The Pats are too good in their system-specific scouting. It's not impossible, but it's pretty unlikely.

I don't think most DT's offer enough impact for a team to be worth the pick. But yes, I also don't think Short, Sylvester Williams, John Jenkins are good enough to be first round picks.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot · Dec 3, 2012

Marqui said:
You guys were saying?

So Cannon comes in for one series (5 plays) while McDonald is out getting his ankle re-taped or something and I'm wrong? No, you're still wrong.

If anything this game says more about Cannon not being a guard. He's clearly behind Connolly, Mankins, Thomas, and McDonald. That's a pretty bad sign. He also looked like a fish out of water when he got his series at guard.

First play he allows Shelby to go right though him and smash Brady.
Second play he and Wendell block Starks.
Third, the run goes away from Cannon and he doesn't do anything.
Fourth, he has to kick out and block for Hernandez on a screen. He missed his block and Hernandez goes down for a short gain.
Fifth, Cannon blocks nobody while Vollmer gets beat by Wake who sacks Brady.
McDonald is back in the next series.

I'm not sure he could have looked worse. What does that do to make me wrong? Nothing of course. I said Cannon isn't a long term solution at guard. Yesterday did nothing to prove me wrong, and only made my stance look better.

Edit-----

I don't want to come off too hard on Cannon. He's still a very good player, but he's a tackle. I think he's a very good second string tackle with the ability to be a very good starting tackle with more time.

DaBruinz · Dec 4, 2012

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
You know what that's called? Of course you don't. It's called playing tackle. Solder is the third tackle in that formation.

It's called playing an INTERIOR line position. Like Cannon did against Miami for two series and did just fine.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
nd he still doesn't. You keep saying Cannon is 10% BF, and people keep saying you're wrong. Every time somebody asks you for a reputable link, you stop replying. So I'll ask again. Do you have a reputable link that says he is 10% BF?

First of all, you've never asked me about it. Secondly, I've provided the link on several occasions. It was discussed several times and provided then as well and he coach was on record as having said it. Sorry if it bursts your bubble about him.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
He does take some reps at guard in practice. Tackles and guards take limited reps at the opposite position all the time. If they have to fill in during a game they have to have some experience there.

Yep. And he filled in at Guard during the last game for 2 series (not 2 plays). Fact is that you opened your mouth and made a statement about Rodak that was actually something that Belichick said and Rodak quoted him on. Just because you have a different comprehension of the words used doesn't mean that you are right and everyone else who understand basic english is wrong.

mayoclinic · Dec 4, 2012

I've been arguing in this thread and elsewhere for a stud LDE to pair with Chandler Jones as a high priority. Someone with the length (ideally 6'5"+), bulk (270#+, preferably a bit more) and strength to 2-gap, set the edge, and rush from the outside, but also capable of moving inside in an even front and rushing the passer. JJ Watt is probably the prototype. Right now the guys who seem to have the physical attributes to fit this mold include:

- Sheldon Richardson, Missouri. 6'4" 295#. 1-gap DT with the quickness to play outside. 1st round pick, probably top 20.
- Ziggy Ansah, BYU. 6'6" 270#+. Tremendous physical tools, plays all over the line, but raw. Some think he is better standing up, and his hand technique and ability to handle blockers has been questioned. Top 40 pick, probably 1st round.
- Margus Hunt, SMU. 6'8" 290#. Great strength, good linear speed. Agility is questionable. Will be 26 next year. Probably a day 2 pick, maybe early day 3.
- Devin Taylor, South Carolina. 6'7" 265#. Has the frame to bulk up much more, but may not be physical enough, and seems inconsistent.
- Datone Jones, UCLA. 6'5" 280#. Has played inside and out. Flying under the radar.
- Ra'shede Hageman*, Minnesota. 6'6" 300#. Played DE before being moved to DT, has 6.5 TFL and 5 sacks. 4.78 speed, great athleticism, but technically raw.

Given that JJ Watt is probably the prototype for the ideal 4-3 LDE/3-4 DE/sub rushing DT, I was interested to read some of BB's comments on Watt prior to this week's game against the Texans:

"He's a really good player", [Belichick] said of Watt. "I think Houston, even though they’re a 3-4 base, they’re really an under team in their regular defense so they’re more of a one-gap team. You see five technique a lot and then when they go to sub, he’s an inside rusher and they’re in sub a lot. They’re probably in sub more than they’re in base.

"[Watt] certainly makes a lot of plays in the 3-4 defense, he has excellent quickness and he’s long so he does a good job rushing against everybody – the tackles, the guards – and he’s very effective on games because of his speed and quickness and his length and his instincts. ... Of course he’s long and he’s athletic but he does have great instincts to get in the passing lane. So, if he’s getting to the quarterback and knocking him down that’s one thing. If he’s not, if he’s getting double teamed or the slide comes to him or something like that, he’s also been very disruptive in not only knocking down balls but some of those have resulted in interceptions. He’s really a complete player, he does everything well. But yeah, that number of batted balls is, I’d say, an extremely high number. He’s very disruptive.

""He's really does a great job in the running game too," Belichick added. "He's quick, he can split single blocks and run plays down from behind. He's really a complete player. He does everything well.

"I don’t think he had the opportunity to do some of the things that he’s had the opportunity to do in the National Football League. He was a productive player in college but a little raw, a little underdeveloped in terms of his overall football experience. But obviously as he’s gained that, he’s really grown with it and he’s become very adept and proficient at a number of different things and techniques. His athletic ability and his ability to be a better technique player, to recognize things, to play instinctively and all that has grown, it’s grown quickly and it’s been very impressive. He’s taken all the athletic ability that he has and he’s really played with it to a very high level."

Belichick: Watt a disruptive force for Texans - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
Belichick: Not a lot Watt can't do

Pretty high praise from BB, and well deserved by Watt. The Pats play another elite guy with the ability to play these roles the following week in SF's Justin Smith. Given BB's comments, I'll be curious to see if watching these guys and what they can do makes him more interesting in going after an Ansah or Richardson early in the draft, or at least one of the other guys later on.

manxman2601 · Dec 4, 2012

mayoclinic said:
I've been arguing in this thread and elsewhere for a stud LDE to pair with Chandler Jones as a high priority. Someone with the length (ideally 6'5"+), bulk (270#+, preferably a bit more) and strength to 2-gap, set the edge, and rush from the outside, but also capable of moving inside in an even front and rushing the passer. JJ Watt is probably the prototype. Right now the guys who seem to have the physical attributes to fit this mold include:

- Sheldon Richardson, Missouri. 6'4" 295#. 1-gap DT with the quickness to play outside. 1st round pick, probably top 20.
- Ziggy Ansah, BYU. 6'6" 270#+. Tremendous physical tools, plays all over the line, but raw. Some think he is better standing up, and his hand technique and ability to handle blockers has been questioned. Top 40 pick, probably 1st round.
- Margus Hunt, SMU. 6'8" 290#. Great strength, good linear speed. Agility is questionable. Will be 26 next year. Probably a day 2 pick, maybe early day 3.
- Devin Taylor, South Carolina. 6'7" 265#. Has the frame to bulk up much more, but may not be physical enough, and seems inconsistent.
- Datone Jones, UCLA. 6'5" 280#. Has played inside and out. Flying under the radar.
- Ra'shede Hageman*, Minnesota. 6'6" 300#. Played DE before being moved to DT, has 6.5 TFL and 5 sacks. 4.78 speed, great athleticism, but technically raw.

Given that JJ Watt is probably the prototype for the ideal 4-3 LDE/3-4 DE/sub rushing DT, I was interested to read some of BB's comments on Watt prior to this week's game against the Texans:

Belichick: Watt a disruptive force for Texans - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
Belichick: Not a lot Watt can't do

Pretty high praise from BB, and well deserved by Watt. The Pats play another elite guy with the ability to play these roles the following week in SF's Justin Smith. Given BB's comments, I'll be curious to see if watching these guys and what they can do makes him more interesting in going after an Ansah or Richardson early in the draft, or at least one of the other guys later on.

He also started with a bit of a disclaimer:

"I think Houston, even though they’re a 3-4 base, they’re really an under team in their regular defense so they’re more of a one-gap team.

Which we aren't and which will require a serious philosophical about turn by BB. I just don't think BB has any interest in any high pick that doesn't set the edge well or two gap well. Ansah would certainly be compatible, but I think it rules out Richardson.

I've raised him in the prospect thread, but Datone Jones may be the best bet for that interior guy but I'm not convinced he's a first rounder. I also don't think Ansah is best playing inside. He's an edge player only in my eyes but a damn good one.

DaBruinz · Dec 4, 2012

Mayo - I noticed in your update that you still list another TE as a need. Is that because we don't know what Ballard would do or is it because you don't think that Ballard is capable of being an H-back type like Hernandez?

mayoclinic · Dec 4, 2012

DaBruinz said:
Mayo - I noticed in your update that you still list another TE as a need. Is that because we don't know what Ballard would do or is it because you don't think that Ballard is capable of being an H-back type like Hernandez?

I should clarify. In the OP I listed another "move TE" to backup/complement Aaron Hernandez as one of my lower priorities. Not high on the list like the secondary, DL, coverage LB or WR, but something that would be useful to have. Aaron Hernandez has yet to play a full season without getting injured, and having someone with that kind of skill set who can spell him would be nice. OTG wanted Evan Rodriguez last year. Reed Jordan of Florida and Chris Gragg of Arkansas seem like the best bets this year. Ballard most definitely is not an H-back. He's a 6'6" 260#-270# guy like Gronk with decent separation - not Gronk's kind of explosiveness, but decent.

As for a more classic in line TE, I think that Ballard may fill that need, but until he's proven that he can recover from his injury I'm guessing that BB will continue to collect TEs and amass depth at the position. Guys like Travis Kelce and Nick Kasa are intriguing. A guy like Austin Seferian-Jenkins would be really interesting - imagine an offense with 2 actual "Gronk" type of TEs. That would be very hard to defend. But I recognize that that's not a likely thing to happen.

mayoclinic · Dec 4, 2012

manxman2601 said:
He also started with a bit of a disclaimer:

Which we aren't and which will require a serious philosophical about turn by BB. I just don't think BB has any interest in any high pick that doesn't set the edge well or two gap well. Ansah would certainly be compatible, but I think it rules out Richardson.

I've raised him in the prospect thread, but Datone Jones may be the best bet for that interior guy but I'm not convinced he's a first rounder. I also don't think Ansah is best playing inside. He's an edge player only in my eyes but a damn good one.

I agree that we'll never be a predominantly 1-gap defense, though I think we'll combine 1-gap elements within a predominantly 2-gap system. I also agree that any high pick has to be able to set the edge well and be able to 2-gap - both things that JJ Watt is more than capable of doing if the scheme demanded it of him. I think that Ziggy Ansah, Margus Hunt and Ra'shede Hageman are all capable of doing those things, and probably Datone Jones. Of those guys, only Ansah is a potential 1st round pick, but the others are all good players. I'm not convinced that Shedlon Richardson can't 2-gap or set the edge, though it certainly isn't how he's been used, and I expect you're right that BB wouldn't use as high a pick as it would take to get Richardson on a guy who hasn't proven himself more in that area.

Snake Eyes · Dec 4, 2012

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
So Cannon comes in for one series (5 plays) while McDonald is out getting his ankle re-taped or something and I'm wrong? No, you're still wrong.

If anything this game says more about Cannon not being a guard. He's clearly behind Connolly, Mankins, Thomas, and McDonald. That's a pretty bad sign. He also looked like a fish out of water when he got his series at guard.

First play he allows Shelby to go right though him and smash Brady.
Second play he and Wendell block Starks.
Third, the run goes away from Cannon and he doesn't do anything.
Fourth, he has to kick out and block for Hernandez on a screen. He missed his block and Hernandez goes down for a short gain.
Fifth, Cannon blocks nobody while Vollmer gets beat by Wake who sacks Brady.
McDonald is back in the next series.

I'm not sure he could have looked worse. What does that do to make me wrong? Nothing of course. I said Cannon isn't a long term solution at guard. Yesterday did nothing to prove me wrong, and only made my stance look better.

Edit-----

I don't want to come off too hard on Cannon. He's still a very good player, but he's a tackle. I think he's a very good second string tackle with the ability to be a very good starting tackle with more time.

Can Canon's place on the Guard depth chart have to do with our lack of depth at OT? Do you really want to completely write off a player at a position after so few snaps?

stelfans · Dec 4, 2012

Datone Jones looks like a good prospect. Great athlete, good against the run, can play inside... Yet again another reason why i think we should trade back.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot · Dec 4, 2012

DaBruinz said:
It's called playing an INTERIOR line position.

No it's not. It's called playing tackle in a three tackle set. Why is this difficult for you? That is youth football type of simplicity.

DaBruinz said:
Like Cannon did against Miami for two series and did just fine.

He was the worst player on the field. So yeah call it "just fine" if you want.

Fact is, when Cannon is sitting on the bench when the back-up center (McDonald) is starting a right guard, that pretty much kills the idea the Bill will use Cannon as a guard long term.

DaBruinz said:
First of all, you've never asked me about it. Secondly, I've provided the link on several occasions. It was discussed several times and provided then as well and he coach was on record as having said it. Sorry if it bursts your bubble about him.

Wrong.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...3/949082-current-needs-page6.html#post3181139

DaBruinz said:
Yep. And he filled in at Guard during the last game for 2 series (not 2 plays). Fact is that you opened your mouth and made a statement about Rodak that was actually something that Belichick said and Rodak quoted him on. Just because you have a different comprehension of the words used doesn't mean that you are right and everyone else who understand basic english is wrong.

"Marcus Cannon type of discussion" referring to the discussion fans and media had when he was selected. You keep going with your childish insults, I'll keep being right.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot · Dec 4, 2012

Snake Eyes said:
Can Canon's place on the Guard depth chart have to do with our lack of depth at OT? Do you really want to completely write off a player at a position after so few snaps?

Absolutely not. I wrote him off because he's nothing like any guard ever that Belichick has drafted or signed. His bad performance doesn't help, but it's not the main reason.

DaBruinz · Dec 5, 2012

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
No it's not. It's called playing tackle in a three tackle set. Why is this difficult for you? That is youth football type of simplicity.

It's not difficult for me. I understand that he was playing the "interior tackle" position in a 3 Tackle set. It's still an INTERIOR position.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
He was the worst player on the field. So yeah call it "just fine" if you want.

Fact is, when Cannon is sitting on the bench when the back-up center (McDonald) is starting a right guard, that pretty much kills the idea the Bill will use Cannon as a guard long term.

That is your erroneous evaluation. But you keep telling yourself that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Fact is that Cannon is on the bench because he is only other player with extended tackle experience currently. As for McDonald, he's not the only back-up center. Thomas is behind him.

And no, it doesn't kill the idea that Bill will use Cannon as a guard long term. He has to go with what the current situation dictates. They have no one behind Cannon as a back-up Tackle except maybe Zuscevics, who is raw and was just activated. You don't play your primary back-up as a starter, especially when one of your starting Tackles is continuing to battle back issues.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
Wrong.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...3/949082-current-needs-page6.html#post3181139

Thank you for pointing out your inability to actually ASK a question. You didn't ask a question there. You made a statement.

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
"Marcus Cannon type of discussion" referring to the discussion fans and media had when he was selected. You keep going with your childish insults, I'll keep being right.

How do you know that is what Belichick was referring to? You don't. It's your opinion. So, please. You aren't right. You're talking out your rear end with nothing to support your claims.

DaBruinz · Dec 5, 2012

Merril Hoge's Tie Knot said:
Absolutely not. I wrote him off because he's nothing like any guard ever that Belichick has drafted or signed. His bad performance doesn't help, but it's not the main reason.

Could you please name the other 350lb O-lineman that BB has drafted or signed? Oh wait. You can't. Because BB had never drafted or signed a 350 lb O-lineman prior to Cannon. So, you're basically making a judgement based on nothing.

BTW, I suggest you go back and watch the game again because Cannon didn't do as poorly as you suggested. But then, you clearly have something against the guy since you are willing to make judgements about him with nothing to support your claims.

mayoclinic · Dec 5, 2012

DaBruinz said:
Could you please name the other 350lb O-lineman that BB has drafted or signed? Oh wait. You can't. Because BB had never drafted or signed a 350 lb O-lineman prior to Cannon. So, you're basically making a judgement based on nothing.

BTW, I suggest you go back and watch the game again because Cannon didn't do as poorly as you suggested. But then, you clearly have something against the guy since you are willing to make judgements about him with nothing to support your claims.

The closest BB came to drafting someone physically like Cannon was 6'7" 330# Ryan O'Callahan in 2006. Cannon is physically way outside the mold for a Pats offensive lineman, which begs the question as to why they took him in the first place. Maybe they saw something that caused them to go outside of their normal model. Personally, I wouldn't draw any conclusions just yet as to where Cannon fits - he's a freakish athlete, and he's still too early in his career to make a judgment.

The Pats played Nick Kaczur at RT for 5 years from 2005 to 2009, but they did try him at LG to fill in for Logan Mankins when Mankins held out during training camp in 2010. So I don't think that the fact that the Pats have never played a player at a position means that they aren't willing to try him there if the need arises, or if they think he has more value there. Whether he can be successful is another matter.

ctpatsfan77 · Dec 5, 2012

mayoclinic said:
Maybe they saw something that caused them to go outside of their normal model.

Quite simply: how often is a stud collegiate LT like Cannon available in the fifth round? [He gave up zero sacks in 2009, and the entire TCU line gave up just nine sacks in 2010.]

mayoclinic · Dec 5, 2012

ctpatsfan77 said:
Quite simply: how often is a stud collegiate LT like Cannon available in the fifth round? [He gave up zero sacks in 2009, and the entire TCU line gave up just nine sacks in 2010.]

True, but the Patriots are the NFL poster child for "system specific" scouting. They wouldn't take a player based on college success if they didn't believe he could fit their system. In spite of Cannon's measurables being way outside their norm, they saw something about him that they not only liked, but also believed fit.

Snake Eyes · Dec 5, 2012

mayoclinic said:
True, but the Patriots are the NFL poster child for "system specific" scouting. They wouldn't take a player based on college success if they didn't believe he could fit their system. In spite of Cannon's measurables being way outside their norm, they saw something about him that they not only liked, but also believed fit.

Perhaps they've been reevaluating what is necessary and therefore what is a "fit". Tons of teams would eliminate Russell Wilson because of his height but it doesnt seem to be an issue for him, new information should prompt someone to reevaluate their current paradigm.

winged1dur · Dec 5, 2012

ctpatsfan77 said:
Quite simply: how often is a stud collegiate LT like Cannon available in the fifth round? [He gave up zero sacks in 2009, and the entire TCU line gave up just nine sacks in 2010.]

His lymphoma diagnosis might have pushed him down a few rounds.

patsfaninpa · Dec 5, 2012

winged1dur said:
His lymphoma diagnosis might have pushed him down a few rounds.

How bout it? Let's not re-invent the wheel. A top 50 prospect fell to 138.

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