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LaRon Landry helmet to helmet hit on Julian Edelman


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One has to wonder if we are now overcompensating. If years of the league having virtually no rules on concussions led to a small portion of the NFL population having brain damage you have to think that after a decade of minimizing contact and protecting players that in 20 years when all these guys are retired we will already have significantly minimized these problems.


Further reduction may not be necessary


The problem likely has to do with the size/speed of the players. I would agree on the ticky tacky helmet contact when guys make good tackles with their arms and shoulders. this rule has actually been in place for many years, I believe. Roll up as a ball with a head to deliver a hit and you might get a penalty. I don't think it's good or necessary technique, myself. It would have been more effective to try to make a tackle IMO.

Either way, it's a penalty according to rules that have been in place for years. Runners get low in traffic, that's nothing new.
 
Now you guys are getting into a pet peeve of mine. The distinction of using the top of the helmet and using the crown and facemask area of the helmet.

The former I would love to ban completely using. To use the top of the helmet is bad not only for the player being hit, but just as often for the player doing the hitting. To hit someone with the top of your helmet means your head is down. Your. neck is exposed to damage, and besides you are more likely to miss the tackle altogether.

Every instance where the top of the helmet is used should be discouraged, both by the offense AND defense. Runners shouldn't be allowed to lower their heads as Edelman did, nor should tacklers like Landry. If I were running the show BOTH would have been penalized.

HOWEVER what should be encouraged is hitting with the crown/facesmask part of the helmet. Now you are in position to see what you are aiming at, and the neck is in the safest position to absorb contact. Now even a facemask to facemask collision would rarely cause injury, though most would be facemask to body.

I think the current dictate to only use the shoulder is NOT the safest way to go. It puts the body in an unsafe twisted position that would engender a lot of shoulder injuries that would be avoided if player were taught to put their facemasks into the target area of the opposing players and wrap.

We also don't teach player to run through their tackles. Now they simply throw there bodies at the legs and hope for the best. Again making it more likely that knees and ankle would be hurt.

The quickest way to get players to stop lowering their heads and hitting with the TOP of the helmet, would be not only to penalize them yardage, but to ban the offender from the field for a series or quarter. EVERYONE would be safer if players learned to hit with their facemaskes and run THROUGH their tackles.....something that they are told NOT to do now.
 
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Now you guys are getting into a pet peeve of mine. The distinction of using the top of the helmet and using the crown and facemask area of the helmet.

The former I would love to ban completely using. To use the top of the helmet is bad not only for the player being hit, but just as often for the player doing the hitting. To hit someone with the top of your helmet means your head is down. Your. neck is exposed to damage, and besides you are more likely to miss the tackle altogether.

Every instance where the top of the helmet is used should be discouraged, both by the offense AND defense. Runners shouldn't be allowed to lower their heads as Edelman did, nor should tacklers like Landry. If I were running the show BOTH would have been penalized.

HOWEVER what should be encouraged is hitting with the crown/facesmask part of the helmet. Now you are in position to see what you are aiming at, and the neck is in the safest position to absorb contact. Now even a facemask to facemask collision would rarely cause injury, though most would be facemask to body.

I think the current dictate to only use the shoulder is NOT the safest way to go. It puts the body in an unsafe twisted position that would engender a lot of shoulder injuries that would be avoided if player were taught to put their facemasks into the target area of the opposing players and wrap.

We also don't teach player to run through their tackles. Now they simply throw there bodies at the legs and hope for the best. Again making it more likely that knees and ankle would be hurt.

The quickest way to get players to stop lowering their heads and hitting with the TOP of the helmet, would be not only to penalize them yardage, but to ban the offender from the field for a series or quarter. EVERYONE would be safer if players learned to hit with their facemaskes and run THROUGH their tackles.....something that they are told NOT to do now.

The reason I started the thread is the Collinsworth (not Michaels) comment that it couldn't be a penalty because he was running the ball. He chose to not use his arms, go for the hit and it became helmet to helmet when Edelman tried to get low.

I disagree about runners not dipping their helmet. That is an essential part of grinding out the extra yard. How would any back get that extra short yardage otherwise?

I agree completely on the tickytack incidental contact of helmets they call now.

Landry wasn't trying to do it, but he gave up the easy chance to tackle and wrap up to make the "big hit" which made the helmet hit happen. Don't see what Edelman did that every runner in traffic doesn't.
 
The reason I started the thread is the Collinsworth (not Michaels) comment that it couldn't be a penalty because he was running the ball. He chose to not use his arms, go for the hit and it became helmet to helmet when Edelman tried to get low.

I disagree about runners not dipping their helmet. That is an essential part of grinding out the extra yard. How would any back get that extra short yardage otherwise?

I agree completely on the tickytack incidental contact of helmets they call now.

Landry wasn't trying to do it, but he gave up the easy chance to tackle and wrap up to make the "big hit" which made the helmet hit happen. Don't see what Edelman did that every runner in traffic doesn't.
I see your point, but lets just agree to disagree. I'd like to discourage ANYONE using the top of their helmets. I don't think it would change RB's ability to "grind out yards". They still can lower their shoulders, and "get down" and STILL keep their "head up" and make contact with the crown of the helmet rather than the top of it.

The mantra for both sides of the ball should aways be SEE WHAT YOU ARE HITTING Then not only would everyone be safer, the quality of tackling, and thus the quality of the game would improve immeasurably
 
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So, running backs should standing run straight up in traffic?

No, but he should be keeping his head up....a

As Ken mentioned above. He, as I understand it and like myself, has coached before and I'm sure he'll agree that Edelman's technique was a little off.


The hit was legal.
 
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No, but he should be keeping his head up....a

As Ken mentioned above. He, as I understand it and like myself, has coached before and I'm sure he'll agree that Edelman's technique was a little off.


The hit was legal.

I agree that Edelman, who isn't a running back, would be smart to keep his head up, after all he got a concussion (we think).

My only point in starting the thread was poster's and Collinsworth's assertion that it couldn't be a penalty. The new ticky tacky rules on helmet contact aren't about this type of play. Under the old rules, which I posted, making contact with the crown of the helmet could definitely be roughing. It doesn't matter what the intent was.
 
Lets go back to leather helmets...These modern ones are to dangerous and cause more injuries than not. They create a false sense of invincibility which leads to reckless harmful behavior. How about not allowing the head to be used as a weapon? Keep the helmet on but don't use it...

Studies might show that all forms of text book tackles can cause major injuries to both parties involved. Hits from 250lb linemen on smaller running backs can be career ending. Maybe bigger players shouldn't be allowed to hit smaller ones for this reason. We could have weight classes and fines/penalties handed out for hitting outside of your weight class.

Throwing the ball to hard can break fingers, I say we use radar and fine QBs for throwing over the maximum speed limit.

One last killer enemy, the football field itself. A safer option would be Giant 100yard long bed mattresses. Turf, grass etc.. to dangerous IMO.

Safety first:)
 
The reason I started the thread is the Collinsworth (not Michaels) comment that it couldn't be a penalty because he was running the ball. He chose to not use his arms, go for the hit and it became helmet to helmet when Edelman tried to get low.

I disagree about runners not dipping their helmet. That is an essential part of grinding out the extra yard. How would any back get that extra short yardage otherwise?

I agree completely on the tickytack incidental contact of helmets they call now.

Landry wasn't trying to do it, but he gave up the easy chance to tackle and wrap up to make the "big hit" which made the helmet hit happen. Don't see what Edelman did that every runner in traffic doesn't.

They dont call him dirty 30 for nothing
 
I don't care for all the ticky tack crap but whatever.

There are 2 facts:

Laron Landry 100% led with his helmet.

Edelman tried to get low which is the natural instinct of anybody holding the football when they are about to get hit.

The 2nd doesn't negate the first. He was going to hit Edelman with his helmet whether Edelman got low or not, it was just a question of where.

He wasn't trying to tackle Edelman he was trying to hit him. Which I believe is what Ken is referring to. Ken would prefer everybody actually tackle like we used to do when we were kids. At least the old ones of us.

By the way the rules are written it was a penalty. It didn't get called, whatever. I've seen it get called plenty of times and I've seen plays like it not get called.
 
yeah Scrizz.. I agree..and I played collegiate football,where that certainly would get flagged in my day...maybe things have changed when some club coach in another country can wax poetic about what is and is not a penalty that has always been one as long as I've been playing and watching.

it's a strange new weirdo world it seems...
 
I don't care for all the ticky tack crap but whatever.

There are 2 facts:

Laron Landry 100% led with his helmet.

Edelman tried to get low which is the natural instinct of anybody holding the football when they are about to get hit.

The 2nd doesn't negate the first. He was going to hit Edelman with his helmet whether Edelman got low or not, it was just a question of where.

He wasn't trying to tackle Edelman he was trying to hit him. Which I believe is what Ken is referring to. Ken would prefer everybody actually tackle like we used to do when we were kids. At least the old ones of us.

By the way the rules are written it was a penalty. It didn't get called, whatever. I've seen it get called plenty of times and I've seen plays like it not get called.


That's a good point. By rule, he could have been called without making contact with Edelman's helmet. Since he did, in a "violent" [wording of rule] enough manor to cause a concussion, it seems this is the type of play they wanted to prevent when they made the rule.
 
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There were actually a few helmet to helmet hits that could have been called in that game, ones that are penalties under current rules.
 
Unless Landry has a shoulder growing over his head, that guess as to his motives doesn't really cut it. Also, the rule does not state that it's OK to make contact only with the helmet if we think you meant to do something else.

Your interpretation assumes that all penalties are intentional, which they surely are not. Instead of a tackle, Landry went to make a "hit" and that hit was delivered with his helmet which is a penalty regardless of his intention. And, per the posters and Al Michaels, it's not OK to do to a running back.

I think intent IS a part of a spearing penalty. In most cases spearing was called when you would lead with the top of your helmet, for example, into a QB or WRs back from behind. As far as I know making a tackle where your helmet happens to make first contact where it is not obvious you are attempting to spear, has never been a penalty. The changing of level of the runner is a factor here, unlike the defenseless player defintion the league is floating where is say it is the defenders responsibility to contact below the head, even if the ball carrier ducks.
 
I think this is being ignored:

Note: The provisions of section (f) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or noncrown parts of the helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on an opponent.

And if you look at how he tackled Edelman:

http://i.imgur.com/JoavS.jpg


He came in sideways, with the crown of Edelman's helmet connected with this side of Landry's - that's a pretty unusual way to hit someone with your helmet.
 
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I see your point, but lets just agree to disagree. I'd like to discourage ANYONE using the top of their helmets. I don't think it would change RB's ability to "grind out yards". They still can lower their shoulders, and "get down" and STILL keep their "head up" and make contact with the crown of the helmet rather than the top of it.

The mantra for both sides of the ball should aways be SEE WHAT YOU ARE HITTING Then not only would everyone be safer, the quality of tackling, and thus the quality of the game would improve immeasurably

If our day you were taught to tackle with your facemask, not the top of your head. At the same time you were taught to aim at the waste, to watch the beltbuckle because the body cant go anywhere the belt buckle doesn't and wrap up. None of those basic fundamentals seem to have survived either.
 
I think intent IS a part of a spearing penalty. In most cases spearing was called when you would lead with the top of your helmet, for example, into a QB or WRs back from behind. As far as I know making a tackle where your helmet happens to make first contact where it is not obvious you are attempting to spear, has never been a penalty. The changing of level of the runner is a factor here, unlike the defenseless player defintion the league is floating where is say it is the defenders responsibility to contact below the head, even if the ball carrier ducks.

Good points but, Landry never attempted to make a tackle, so whatever his intent was, he ended up leading with his helmet.

I'm not saying it's definitely a penalty, though it could be called according to the rule I posted. It could be called and it would have nothing to do with whether it was a runner. the "defensless player sections cover contact that wouldn't be a penalty except on a defenseless player.

My orginal point...


It has been proposed here that it's OK to hit a runner with your helmet, as Landry did to Edelman, because he was running and therefore not defenseless.
 
Now you guys are getting into a pet peeve of mine. The distinction of using the top of the helmet and using the crown and facemask area of the helmet.

The former I would love to ban completely using. To use the top of the helmet is bad not only for the player being hit, but just as often for the player doing the hitting. To hit someone with the top of your helmet means your head is down. Your. neck is exposed to damage, and besides you are more likely to miss the tackle altogether.

Every instance where the top of the helmet is used should be discouraged, both by the offense AND defense. Runners shouldn't be allowed to lower their heads as Edelman did, nor should tacklers like Landry. If I were running the show BOTH would have been penalized.

HOWEVER what should be encouraged is hitting with the crown/facesmask part of the helmet. Now you are in position to see what you are aiming at, and the neck is in the safest position to absorb contact. Now even a facemask to facemask collision would rarely cause injury, though most would be facemask to body.

I think the current dictate to only use the shoulder is NOT the safest way to go. It puts the body in an unsafe twisted position that would engender a lot of shoulder injuries that would be avoided if player were taught to put their facemasks into the target area of the opposing players and wrap.

We also don't teach player to run through their tackles. Now they simply throw there bodies at the legs and hope for the best. Again making it more likely that knees and ankle would be hurt.

The quickest way to get players to stop lowering their heads and hitting with the TOP of the helmet, would be not only to penalize them yardage, but to ban the offender from the field for a series or quarter. EVERYONE would be safer if players learned to hit with their facemaskes and run THROUGH their tackles.....something that they are told NOT to do now.
I completely agree and it's how I was taught to play LB (see what you are hitting, wrap, and use your legs to DRIVE your opponent back/down) back in the day.

One of my best friends since childhood, a good high school prospect (Penn State was looking at him, among others...) that I played with, did the opposite. He always went for "the big hit", eyes down. Our Senior year he broke his neck using this "technique". Happily he survived and can walk but it was a scary time. He never played football again, which is too bad, he was one hell of an athlete.

After watching the youtube several times it sure seems like a clean hit to me.
 
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just as long as we don't get called for it, i'm fine with it. i'm sure edelman's a little woozy.
 
When I watched the game live I said out loud to friends/family in the room "He speared him", and the replay looked to only prove he lead with the helmet. Sorry but leading with your helmet is always illegal, and could cause serious injury to the tackler as well. This is why helmets used to have a sticker inside that explained what spearing was, and that sticker said spearing was illegal in HS, College, and major football leagues. Some of you might remember I played Linebacker in the SEC, and spearing was illegal then, too.
 
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