Constructive defensive thread

Sciz said:

Here you go spinning things again. What's the correct reaction to Welker not catching that ball?

"Woohoo! I get to go play defense again rather than just winning right now!"

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You put on your helmet and play defense. It's like they knew it was over.

I'm starting to notice how much clock management/top has effected all the sb wins and loses.

While perhaps there was a good amount of hyperbole regarding a poster's idea of other team's completely shutting down its run game to go to the pass exclusively, if the premise really was more like skew the offense greatly towards more passing against the Pats secondary versus rushing the ball against the front seven, why wouldn't an opposing coach do that?

I seem to remember a 59-0 Titans game where BB did just that. Brady had a field day passing in that game and the Pats only started rushing the ball more when he was replaced sometime in the 3rd quarter.

59-0 over the Titans. How many TB's are there out in the NFL? You won't need more than the fingers of one hand....with one or two fingers left over.

smg93 said:

While perhaps there was a good amount of hyperbole regarding a poster's idea of other team's completely shutting down its run game to go to the pass exclusively, if the premise really was more like skew the offense greatly towards more passing against the Pats secondary versus rushing the ball against the front seven, why wouldn't an opposing coach do that?

I seem to remember a 59-0 Titans game where BB did just that. Brady had a field day passing in that game and the Pats only started rushing the ball more when he was replaced sometime in the 3rd quarter.

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I wouldn't think that it would be hyperbole. My team, if facing the Pats, would have 60+ passing attempts. I wouldn't even try to run the ball.

If a team did not even try to run the ball without having a super elite QB, that team would earn a lost game. For one thing, if you give the opponent the opportunity to completely ignore one aspect of the game, your opponent will overload against that one remaining aspect of the game. However that is maybe even the less relevant concern when discussing passing the ball that much.

There are inherent risks to passing that makes passing 100% of the time a loser even against the the pass defense the Pats would throw up (pardon the pun) against such an offense.

We see it time and time again....the average, run of the mill NFL QB if given the opportunity to throw enough times will make enough mistakes often without even being pressured to turn the ball over even when he is throwing against defenses that at least have to think about the possibility of the run. He will throw up a few egg beaters, a few throws where he just did not see the defender (ala Fitz and the McC interception that ended the Bills game), a few throws that are just errant, a throw here or there will bounce off the receivers hands and rebound right to a defender, a miscommunication between QB and receiver, a zig instead of a zag.

I would guess that with a defense completely configured to stop the pass and the mean average QB doing the throwing you would coax at least three ints. out of the game and possibly one fumble from a receiver just getting crushed out there in the open field after making a reception....although the Pats defender best at that aspect of the game...Spikes would not even see the field in such a game.

Flacco even with his experience, tossed up mistake after mistake, enough of them for us to win that game if we had just capitalized. I can think of maybe four NFL QB'S that would allow me to even consider the discussion, including Brady. Rogers, Breeze and maybe Payton would be the only other guys that might not self-destruct and err enough throwing that often to eventually earn a lost game even to the Pats.

The end result would be the fans of the opponent spending the week following complaining on their talk radio station that if they had just run the ball enough to make the Pats respect it, the Pats surely would have kept their run stoppers on the field instead of playing a defense specifically designed to stop the pass and said team would have had much more success passing under those circumstances.

Here is what i dont get

Why, when you set up to rush 4, drop the LB's into coverage and play a soft zone with a deep safety are we CONSTANTLY playing this scheme when it is routinely giving up massive chunks of yardage

Dennard and Talib are press corners who prefer man coverage, Spikes and Mayo are good on a blitz and vs the run but are terrible at pass coverage

I cannot see why the coaches cant see this and go to a press man scheme with at least some occasional LB and CB blitzes thrown in because this conservative approach which i assume is meant to be safe is killing us, we'd be better at least trying something new because QB's like Luck, Schaub, Manning etc will destroy the soft zone

JoeShmoe said:

Here is what i dont get

Why, when you set up to rush 4, drop the LB's into coverage and play a soft zone with a deep safety are we CONSTANTLY playing this scheme when it is routinely giving up massive chunks of yardage

Dennard and Talib are press corners who prefer man coverage, Spikes and Mayo are good on a blitz and vs the run but are terrible at pass coverage

I cannot see why the coaches cant see this and go to a press man scheme with at least some occasional LB and CB blitzes thrown in because this conservative approach which i assume is meant to be safe is killing us, we'd be better at least trying something new because QB's like Luck, Schaub, Manning etc will destroy the soft zone

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Because, with the personnel that we've had to date, the results have been an INCREDIBLY mixed bag when playing press man. That type of coverage has also been the type of coverage that has seen the defense give up long passing plays over the top.

smg93 said:

While perhaps there was a good amount of hyperbole regarding a poster's idea of other team's completely shutting down its run game to go to the pass exclusively, if the premise really was more like skew the offense greatly towards more passing against the Pats secondary versus rushing the ball against the front seven, why wouldn't an opposing coach do that?

I seem to remember a 59-0 Titans game where BB did just that. Brady had a field day passing in that game and the Pats only started rushing the ball more when he was replaced sometime in the 3rd quarter.

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That would mean we're giving up 59 points on a regular basis, no? No one's arguing the secondary is good, which makes me wonder why anyone would bother posting over and over, what we all already know.

I would love defenses to take the run option out, they would get creamed IMO.

Sciz said:

Well for starters, many posters expect them to turn around and look at the ball every time they're thrown at, while the coaches specifically teach the players not to look for the ball in certain situations.

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Source? I specifically remember Belichick screaming at the DBs to "play the d***** ball" during a game last year.

I think fans who've never played football hugely underestimate how hard it is to run full speed with a wide receiver and turn your head for the ball without losing track of him. You can only "coach up" a player so much, as anyone who's played sports knows. No coach is going to magically make you a great player. The good ones can break it down and make it simple for you, but you don't get better unless you do it yourself.

This isn't a problem that's unique to the Patriots. My two best friends are Giants and Redskins fans and they both yell at their teams' DBs for the same thing. It takes a lot of skill and experience to be able to time it right--that's why guys like Brandon Flowers and Darelle Revis are the exception, not the rule.

KontradictioN said:

Because, with the personnel that we've had to date, the results have been an INCREDIBLY mixed bag when playing press man. That type of coverage has also been the type of coverage that has seen the defense give up long passing plays over the top.

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Yeah, this is what people don't get. The Pats have been running more man coverage this year, and sometimes they've locked it down, and other times they've gotten beat for 40+ yard passing plays. They haven't shown any consistency in their ability to play man.

TheComeback said:

Source? I specifically remember Belichick screaming at the DBs to "play the d***** ball" during a game last year.

I think fans who've never played football hugely underestimate how hard it is to run full speed with a wide receiver and turn your head for the ball without losing track of him. You can only "coach up" a player so much, as anyone who's played sports knows. No coach is going to magically make you a great player. The good ones can break it down and make it simple for you, but you don't get better unless you do it yourself.

This isn't a problem that's unique to the Patriots. My two best friends are Giants and Redskins fans and they both yell at their teams' DBs for the same thing. It takes a lot of skill and experience to be able to time it right--that's why guys like Brandon Flowers and Darelle Revis are the exception, not the rule.

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Deus Irae said:

Belichick has made this clear in recent interviews. AWTE has posted about it on PatriotsPlanet, and it was linked over to here. The Patriots teach the CBs to turn only if they are in the dominant defensive position. So, if you've got a problem with the coaching, it's on BB, because it's a system/scheme/technique issue.

The problem is that this team doesn't have CBs who can get that position on outside routes very often.

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..........

Nunchucks said:

You can blame the defense for not getting the ball to the offense enough. The time of possession in that game was atrocious.

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I know this is OT, but whenever I hear this I feel the need to point out that the number one reason the Time of Possession in that god forsaken game is so bad is because of that dumbass safety. The Patriots barely had the ball in the 1st quarter because of it, and the Giants were suddenly up by two scores. God knows this isn't the type of defense that plays well in situations where the offense screws up that badly. But then the Patriots have those two time-sucking TD drives before and after the half. If Brady doesn't have that brain fart to start the game, the Patriots win.