Do you Realize we SHOULD be Undefeated

I'm still pinning my hopes on the team focusing on getting it right at the pointy end of the season.

You can play and win scrappy in the normal season, but eventually you need to start getting your **** together and get some momentum going into the post season.

Gumby said:

I dont disagree with you completely in your first statement (hell 150 penalty yds alone was a game chgr); but with all the TOs burned due to injuries and only 23s left; Fitz wasn't looking in the middle of the field short of the goal line. He wanted 3 chances not just 1.

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First of all, look at the picture. You should know what Spiller is capable of in space. That's probably 90% TD material set up right there. And, on the odd chance he doesn't make it, there is plenty of time to spike the ball and have a couple of shots in the endzone from VERY close...that's the worst case scenario.

Also, I'm a Bills fan, so I'll give you a little insight that perhaps you did not know. That INT was intended for TJ Graham, a rookie third round pick. I follow the Bills closely. Just this week, Chan Gailey was talking about Graham...he talked about how he's still raw and doesn't know what he's looking at a lot of time...about how he's not able to adjust to defense and things like that.

So, 'lo and behold, they go to him in THAT situation and there is a miscommunication. Fitzpatrick thought that Graham was going to cut AHEAD of the defender. He didn't. The pass was intercepted as a result.

And yeah, Donald Jones was hurt on that drive costing the Bills a time out. What that also did was likely put TJ Graham in Donald Jones' shoes on that particular play, when the Bills had a great chance to win.

Uncle Meat said:

LOL, the Patriots SHOULD have lost today. I can give you ten reasons why, but check out the final play of the game. For some reason, the Bills don't want to use their best play (CJ Spiller) that much. Look at this picture. Pay attention to where Spiller is on the 12 yard-line. Had you beat right there alone.

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Regarding your caption: First, Fitz is already in his throwing motion. The wait time to identify and make the throw you think is the best option equals an unknown as to what would have happened -- not to mention the defense will be reacting to some degree to where the QB is looking. Second, every QB in the league sometimes has guys that are open and he doesn't hit them. There are more factors going into a pass than player X is open. Third: the receiver does not appear to have a high probability of making it close to the endzone. The clock probably runs to 15 seconds (or further) if he makes that throw. That almost guarantees the Bills are now forced to make every throw into the endzone as well as limits the amount of chances they can thor winto the endzone (due to the clock). Not an optimum play given the situation.

As to the Patriots "should" have lost. That is certainly your right to make that determination. But there is not only a practical insignificance to that argument (they won) but the logic behind your argument uses factor A and factor B yet disregards a bunch of other factors.

Patriots are undefeated in games we never played and games we lost by a close margin.

IcyPatriot said:

We had linebackers and a SS that were extremely strong in that soft area. Now we have 3 good linebackers and a safety that are not strong on covering in that soft area ... that's how I see it.

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I don't entirely disagree, however, the middle of the field is no longer defended by fear (at least not as much). The Patriots victory over the Rams in 01 would probably not occur today given the new rules/reality of the NFL. Receivers don't have to fear going over the middle like they used to -- meaning the middle of the field, I suspect, is paying dividends across the league unlike it used to.

TheBostonStraggler said:

Regarding your caption: First, Fitz is already in his throwing motion. The wait time to identify and make the throw you think is the best option equals an unknown as to what would have happened -- not to mention the defense will be reacting to some degree to where the QB is looking. Second, every QB in the league sometimes has guys that are open and he doesn't hit them. There are more factors going into a pass than player X is open. Third: the receiver does not appear to have a high probability of making it close to the endzone. The clock probably runs to 15 seconds (or further) if he makes that throw. That almost guarantees the Bills are now forced to make every throw into the endzone as well as limits the amount of chances they can thor winto the endzone (due to the clock). Not an optimum play given the situation.

As to the Patriots "should" have lost. That is certainly your right to make that determination. But there is not only a practical insignificance to that argument (they won) but the logic behind your argument uses factor A and factor B yet disregards a bunch of other factors.

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First of all, did you read the OP? It was saying that the Patriots SHOULD be undefeated, and I was responding to that.

Secondly, if you want to talk about "factor A and B," did you watch the game? The Patriots were outperformed and got a bunch of breaks, such as 10 Bills penalties for 119 yards in the first half alone, some of which were complete bull****. Completely. 3 pass interference calls in the endzone, I believe, the biggest of which was beyond any shred of catchability...WAY out of the back of the endzone. They called pass interference on the Bills (instead of illegal contact) on a play where it was a completely different receiver thrown to. Illegal hands to the face that didn't happen. Since when is running out of bounds and coming back in on a kickoff "unsportsmanlike?Dan Fouts was even talking about how the Bills got jobbed on several occasions...but we aren't talking about that. You have sure-fire dropped interceptions and stuff like that...

On this particular play, which I've watched numerous times, that would be a TD if thrown to Spiller. I'd just about guarantee you that. Even if it wasn't, the Bills would have at least two more shots after that, probably more...probably three. That play would have taken them inside the 5 yardline at the very least.

Whatever, enjoy your win...but you escaped with it.

Uncle Meat said:

First of all, look at the picture. You should know what Spiller is capable of in space. That's probably 90% TD material set up right there. And, on the odd chance he doesn't make it, there is plenty of time to spike the ball and have a couple of shots in the endzone from VERY close...that's the worst case scenario.

Also, I'm a Bills fan, so I'll give you a little insight that perhaps you did not know. That INT was intended for TJ Graham, a rookie third round pick. I follow the Bills closely. Just this week, Chan Gailey was talking about Graham...he talked about how he's still raw and doesn't know what he's looking at a lot of time...about how he's not able to adjust to defense and things like that.

So, 'lo and behold, they go to him in THAT situation and there is a miscommunication. Fitzpatrick thought that Graham was going to cut AHEAD of the defender. He didn't. The pass was intercepted as a result.

And yeah, Donald Jones was hurt on that drive costing the Bills a time out. What that also did was likely put TJ Graham in Donald Jones' shoes on that particular play, when the Bills had a great chance to win.

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So let me get this straight, space equals the Patriots having 8 or 9 players behind you (situated between the 10 yard line and halfway into the goal area) specifically defending against the TD (as they should), and that equals a 90% chance for a TD? With 26 seconds to go and no timeouts, the Bills should throw the ball 3 yards beyond the LOS and still 12 yards from the endzone in front of 80% of a Patriot's defense that is concentrated in a short amount of field? I know some coaches and QBs would consider that a poor choice of use for the 10+ of your remaining 26 seconds but I admire you for going your own way on it......

Uncle Meat said:

First of all, did you read the OP? It was saying that the Patriots SHOULD be undefeated, and I was responding to that.

Secondly, if you want to talk about "factor A and B," did you watch the game? The Patriots were outperformed and got a bunch of breaks, such as 10 Bills penalties for 119 yards in the first half alone, some of which were complete bull****. Completely. 3 pass interference calls in the endzone, I believe, the biggest of which was beyond any shred of catchability...WAY out of the back of the endzone. They called pass interference on the Bills (instead of illegal contact) on a play where it was a completely different receiver thrown to. Illegal hands to the face that didn't happen. Since when is running out of bounds and coming back in on a kickoff "unsportsmanlike?Dan Fouts was even talking about how the Bills got jobbed on several occasions...but we aren't talking about that. You have sure-fire dropped interceptions and stuff like that...

On this particular play, which I've watched numerous times, that would be a TD if thrown to Spiller. I'd just about guarantee you that. Even if it wasn't, the Bills would have at least two more shots after that, probably more...probably three. That play would have taken them inside the 5 yardline at the very least.

Whatever, enjoy your win...but you escaped with it.

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First of all, relax. I don't care whether you don't like my opinion and you shouldn't get that worked up over mine. You're on a Patriot's board - get over yourself.

Second, I'm sorry, how many of these penalties were illegitimate? How many of them would have caused the Patriots to have to punt given the Bills ability to stop the Patriots otherwise? How many in the second half for the Bills that kept you from scoring enough points to win? BTW, how may penalties should have been called that weren't? How many of the Patriots penalties were not legitimate? How many plays did the Patriots not make that were TB just missing an open guy or the receiver just dropping it? How many plays were caused by the Bills and the Patriots covering one area/forcing it to a less historically successful other? How many plays did not succeeded because of play calling for the Bills and the Patriots? How many did not succeed even with the right play call? How many uncategorized unforced errors? How many simple 'luck of the bounce' plays?

How about I stop there and just look forward to your report on the above variables that will be inserted into the NFL's standardized 'who really should have won the game' formula....

We're extremely fortunate to be 6-3. I'll take it.

Keyser Söze said:

We're extremely fortunate to be 6-3. I'll take it.

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good attitude.

TheBostonStraggler said:

First of all, relax. I don't care whether you don't like my opinion and you shouldn't get that worked up over mine. You're on a Patriot's board - get over yourself.

Second, I'm sorry, how many of these penalties were illegitimate? How many of them would have caused the Patriots to have to punt given the Bills ability to stop the Patriots otherwise? How many in the second half for the Bills that kept you from scoring enough points to win? BTW, how may penalties should have been called that weren't? How many of the Patriots penalties were not legitimate? How many plays did the Patriots not make that were TB just missing an open guy or the receiver just dropping it? How many plays were caused by the Bills and the Patriots covering one area/forcing it to a less historically successful other? How many plays did not succeeded because of play calling for the Bills and the Patriots? How many did not succeed even with the right play call? How many uncategorized unforced errors? How many simple 'luck of the bounce' plays?

How about I stop there and just look forward to your report on the above variables that will be inserted into the NFL's standardized 'who really should have won the game' formula....

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Too many questions, some of which I've already answered. Fact is that the Patriots caught more breaks than the Bills, both fair and unfair.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

If you disagree, then tell me why. BUt it's pretty obvious that this is the case.

resdubwhite said:

shoulda, woulda, coulda.

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Amen man...well said

Uncle Meat said:

Too many questions, some of which I've already answered. Fact is that the Patriots caught more breaks than the Bills, both fair and unfair.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

If you disagree, then tell me why. BUt it's pretty obvious that this is the case.

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I disagree because "you guys caught more breaks" and didn't deserve to win is a shaky ground to stand on at best. What happened with this game is:

A) the Patriots were expected to play at a level that would not have made the game close and/or the Bills were expected to play at a level that would have not made the game close or some combination of the two.
B) The actual results of A allowed the Bills to be able to win this game by making some plays especially at the right time and/or the Patriots to not make the plays especially at the right time.
C) Buffalo failed to execute B sufficiently and/or the Patriots did execute B sufficiently or some combination of both..... therefore Buffalo lost.

Those are the generic facts. Arguing who should have won is a speculative judgement call. Your judgment on that is neither wrong or right. My judgement on that would be neither wrong or right. That is because it isn't a quantifiable position. So spare me the 'I watched the game better than you so I know the facts' nonsense. However, I'm not making a judgement call on it because of the very fact it isn't quantifiable. Maybe in the grand scheme Buffalo deserved to win. Who knows. Again I don't know and that is nothing but speculation. Again, what I am saying is the Patriots -- regardless of whether the Patriots played poorly and/or mediocre and/or was aided by divine intervention -- won because of C. That is factually based argument unlike yours.

Uncle Meat said:

First of all, did you read the OP? It was saying that the Patriots SHOULD be undefeated, and I was responding to that.

Secondly, if you want to talk about "factor A and B," did you watch the game? The Patriots were outperformed and got a bunch of breaks, such as 10 Bills penalties for 119 yards in the first half alone, some of which were complete bull****. Completely. 3 pass interference calls in the endzone, I believe, the biggest of which was beyond any shred of catchability...WAY out of the back of the endzone. They called pass interference on the Bills (instead of illegal contact) on a play where it was a completely different receiver thrown to. Illegal hands to the face that didn't happen. Since when is running out of bounds and coming back in on a kickoff "unsportsmanlike?Dan Fouts was even talking about how the Bills got jobbed on several occasions...but we aren't talking about that. You have sure-fire dropped interceptions and stuff like that...

On this particular play, which I've watched numerous times, that would be a TD if thrown to Spiller. I'd just about guarantee you that. Even if it wasn't, the Bills would have at least two more shots after that, probably more...probably three. That play would have taken them inside the 5 yardline at the very least.

Whatever, enjoy your win...but you escaped with it.

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Escaped? The Bills never once had a lead in that game.

TheBostonStraggler said:

I disagree because "you guys caught more breaks" and didn't deserve to win is a shaky ground to stand on at best. What happened with this game is:

A) the Patriots were expected to play at a level that would not have made the game close and/or the Bills were expected to play at a level that would have not made the game close or some combination of the two.
B) The actual results of A allowed the Bills to be able to win this game by making some plays especially at the right time and/or the Patriots to not make the plays especially at the right time.
C) Buffalo failed to execute B sufficiently and/or the Patriots did execute B sufficiently or some combination of both..... therefore Buffalo lost.

Those are the generic facts. Arguing who should have won is a speculative judgement call. Your judgment on that is neither wrong or right. My judgement on that would be neither wrong or right. That is because it isn't a quantifiable position. So spare me the 'I watched the game better than you so I know the facts' nonsense. However, I'm not making a judgement call on it because of the very fact it isn't quantifiable. Maybe in the grand scheme Buffalo deserved to win. Who knows. Again I don't know and that is nothing but speculation. Again, what I am saying is the Patriots -- regardless of whether the Patriots played poorly and/or mediocre and/or was aided by divine intervention -- won because of C. That is factually based argument unlike yours.

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Who said that the Patriots didn't deserve to win? I sure didn't. I said that they escaped with a win, which is true.

Spare me your A, B, Cs. I watched the game twice already. Crucial plays I watched SEVERAL times. I'm telling you that the Patriots were outplayed IN MY OPINION. I shall not be foolish enough to try to convince you of that.

...never a doubt, huh buddy?

Keyser Söze said:

We're extremely fortunate to be 6-3. I'll take it.

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So to a great extent the Patriots have had unexpectedly good events cause them to be 6-3? Ok. The Patriots are like the Biff Tannen Part II of the NFL? And considering the Patriots are 2 last minute plays from being 8-1 not to mention some professional refereeing away from also having a better shot at being 8-1? Wow! Boy those Patriots are missing their calling not going to Vegas

The Patriots are neither fortunate or unfortunate to be what they are. They actually are what they are. And my suspicion would be most experts would rank the Patriots as a %666 team.....which, remarkably, is currently what they are.

And the Packers should have repeated last year. Any. Given. Sunday.

Juddy said:

No such thing as should we didn't make enough plays to be anything better than 6-3.

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We scored the game winning touchdown in the Cardinals game.

carolinatony said:

These players we drafted were good in collage.

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Well, I honestly don't think it matters that they were good making crafts with trimmings.

resdubwhite said:

shoulda, woulda, coulda.

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Or, as Bill Parcells puts it: "You are what your record says you are."

After giving up 481 yards to the Bills at home after a Bye and allowing them to win time of possession by seven minutes, I think we're a 6--3 team...today.

Hopefully, we'll play like an 11--5 or 12--4 team for the rest of the season. But, that's not what we look like...again..."today."

Enough with the "might have beens" about the games we've played, let's focus on Indy next week and then on two Division games in a row on the road.

We are in a position to lock up the Division in the next three weeks; let's just get that done first.