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The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread


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Even though he's a rat, the 2000-2004 Eric Mangini coached secondary wasn't bad so he should be under consideration at least to come back in a DB coaches capacity.

It's also worth mentioning he's coached a couple elite CBs in his time too.
 
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Re: Fire the DB coach:

Spending so many high draft picks on busts at CB for so long has hurt us more than anything the last few years. Not sure whose fault that is.

And if you choose to draft only ONE safety over a four year period prior to 2012, that guy better damn well pan out, especially if you're prone to releasing your two long-time starting safeties on the eve of the 2011 season. You cant predict injuries, but the Chung pick is looking pretty horrible right now.

Chris Canty was the only high draft pick at the position (that I can recall) that was a bust and that was a Petey Pick. Unless you count Wheatley and Wilhite but they both went on to play for other teams.

Chung is waaay too early to call but I think he's far from a bust right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong here...
 
Even though he's a rat, the 2000-2004 Eric Mangini coached secondary wasn't bad so he should be under consideration at least to come back in a DB coaches capacity.

It's also worth mentioning he's coached a couple elite CBs in his time too.

He was an excellent secondary coach--the difference here would be dramatic if he was coach.

Unfortunately, his transgression was too great to mend those fences, I think.
 
Ellis Hobbs, Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Terrence Wheatley all went on to play for other teams with mostly good results.

The Pats can't draft receivers but they do ok with their DBs. The regression appears to be a scheme/coaching issue to me. I could be wrong but the evidence points this way.

NITPICKER NOTES: 1. Hobbs retired due to injury 2. Butler is playing for the Colts as their nickel (albeit due to injuries) 3. Wheatley is a bum (although still employed in the NFL).


Really? They went on to play with mostly good results? Is that in some bizarro football universe?

Asante Samuel had good results, but you can't say that about the rest.
 
Re: Fire the DB coach:

Chris Canty was the only high draft pick at the position (that I can recall) that was a bust and that was a Petey Pick. Unless you count Wheatley and Wilhite but they both went on to play for other teams.

Chung is waaay too early to call but I think he's far from a bust right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong here...

I do include Wheatley and Wilhite. and Darius Butler.

And Chung could turn it around, but he's had three years and he's headed in the wrong direction imo. He's basically doing nothing well at this point.
 
Again.....

Lay out an actual, well-reasoned case why the ongoing suckiness of the secondary is not a result of the coaching. Include in your presentation specific details as to why several Pats' players in the secondary (such as, but not limited to, Eugene Wilson, Devin McCourty) began their Patriots careers with noticeable success before regressing. Also, detail what actions and/or characteristics of the current secondary coach are helping the Patriots be a better team.

Until you do that, I'm afraid we'll have to assume that you're just--what was that phrase again?--talking out of your ass.

Again, I asked for your case. You're trying to switch it around. I understand, though, since you don't actually have a case.

As for Eugene Wilson, the man broke body parts in 2 straight Super Bowls and wasn't the same afterwards. However, in case you didn't realize this, and this is important, so I'll put it in caps just for you......

BOYER WASN'T THE DB COACH FOR WILSON. This helps my point, and undercuts yours.
 
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Ellis Hobbs, Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Terrence Wheatley all went on to play for other teams with mostly good results.

The Pats can't draft receivers but they do ok with their DBs. The regression appears to be a scheme/coaching issue to me. I could be wrong but the evidence points this way.

NITPICKER NOTES: 1. Hobbs retired due to injury 2. Butler is playing for the Colts as their nickel (albeit due to injuries) 3. Wheatley is a bum (although still employed in the NFL).

As you noted, Hobbs retired due to injury
Wilson was never the same after that second Super Bowl injury
Meriweather was benched in Chicago
Gay had lost his starting job, and had to retire due to concussions
Butler is only playing due to injury
Wheatley only played in one game after leaving the Patriots, and is out of football
Sanders is a backup/depth guy in Arizona

So, the only player who's gone on to have good results post-NE, be it because of injury or other issue, is Samuel.

I didn't like the way the got rid of Meriweather and Sanders last year, and I stand by that, but it's not as if either of them has lit the world on fire.
 
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Unfortunately, you failed to mention the New England Patriots starting safeties during the 2003-2004 NFL Seasons were Rodney Harrison and Eugene Wilson.

Albeit the current roster does not have a Rodney Harrison, i refuse to believe a secondary can be this bad because we don't have a star player a la a Rodney Harrison. It should be not as good, yes, but to be the laughing stock of the NFL without a Rodney lead Secondary, i wouldnt go that far.

Also our front 7 is very formidable in comparison to the 2003-2004 teams front 7.
 
Our secondary sucks. Yes it does. But what can the Pats do to fix that? We are going to have to make corrections with the personnel we currently have because I don't see any team in the NFL willing to help improve our defense for draft picks.
 
Our secondary sucks. Yes it does. But what can the Pats do to fix that? We are going to have to make corrections with the personnel we currently have because I don't see any team in the NFL willing to help improve our defense for draft picks.

That's why the most logical and most immediate decision is to replace the coaching. It starts with the DC in Patricia. Downgrade him back to LB coach and get rid of Boyers. With these guys leading our defensive braintrust, we have been consistently one of the worst defensive teams year in and year out.

Yes we might be missing a few talented players in the secondary, but a good DC coordinator can cover it up wayyyyyyyy better than Patricia and his vanilla defense. It's kind of unfair that I am using Boyers as a scapegoat because honestly i have no idea what he is teaching the secondary back there, but it is obviously has not been working and it wouldn't hurt to infuse some new blood to shake up the defensive philosophy.

BB needs to stop promoting from within and hire more capable well established coaches to his arsenal, especially on defense. Which for whatever reason, he has been very reluctant about since he has been here. Maybe due to Ego??? We could get results within a few weeks versus waiting another season to hopefully get a stud CB.
 
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Albeit the current roster does not have a Rodney Harrison, i refuse to believe a secondary can be this bad because we don't have a star player a la a Rodney Harrison. It should be not as good, yes, but to be the laughing stock of the NFL without a Rodney lead Secondary, i wouldnt go that far.

Also our front 7 is very formidable in comparison to the 2003-2004 teams front 7.

It's the laughing stock of the NFL for a few different reasons

1) Talent - The guys that we start in the secondary are not starters on most other teams, and that's just not 1 or 2 of them, that is the whole secondary.

Chung - Horrible in coverage. Below average
Gregory - Career backup until he got here. Below average
Arrington - Way below average
McCourty - Average to below average. Not consistent.
Dowling, Wilson, Dennard - not seen enough to say above or below yet.

2) Coaching - These guys are the worst in the league at playing the ball. Either we don't know how to draft corners or we don't know how to coach them. The vanilla scheme with no blitzes isn't doing the corners any favors either.

I also don't think we can say (yet) that the front seven is the equal of those championship front sevens. They had some all time great Patriots who were great in crunch time. Guys like McGinest, Vrabel, Bruschi, & Seymour made big plays at key times. The group we have now have not done that in crunch time.
 
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As you noted, Hobbs retired due to injury
Wilson was never the same after that second Super Bowl injury
Meriweather was benched in Chicago
Gay had lost his starting job, and had to retire due to concussions
Butler is only playing due to injury
Wheatley only played in one game after leaving the Patriots, and is out of football
Sanders is a backup/depth guy in Arizona

So, the only player who's gone on to have good results post-NE, be it because of injury or other issue, is Samuel.

I didn't like the way the got rid of Meriweather and Sanders last year, and I stand by that, but it's not as if either of them has lit the world on fire.

This is an interesting argument. Does the absence of players who performed well outside NE mean that the issue is player selection, not player coaching?

However, when you broaden the range beyond DB, there are few other cases you can compare. Samuel is about the only player, at DB or anywhere else, who has really performed well outside NE.

Cassell, Kevin McConnell, Hoyer can't find a home, Matt Guttierez, all the way back to Rohan Davey. Young QB's, trained under Brady and Pats offensive system. Cassell had a good year or two in KC, but nothing really that measured up to his one year here.

Can you think of OL that performed well elsewhere? Maroney didn't succeed outside NE. BJGE looks to have regressed. Outside Branch none of the "New England" wide receivers played well elsewhere - only the guys who spent a season here 5-6 years into their careers, but not the Taylor Price/Chad Jackson's.

So what does that really demonstrate, then, if few of the corners or safeties succeeded elsewhere?

All we know is that the team has been able to develop a QB, a number of OL, TE's, small number of receivers, good DL, some LB's, but very few DB's. With similar 'raw material' the team has succeeded at other positions, but not DB.
 
That's why the most logical and most immediate decision is to replace the coaching. It starts with the DC in Patricia. Downgrade him back to LB coach and get rid of Boyers. With these guys leading our defensive braintrust, we have been consistently one of the worst defensive teams year in and year out.

Yes we might be missing a few talented players in the secondary, but a good DC coordinator can cover it up wayyyyyyyy better than Patricia and his vanilla defense. It's kind of unfair that I am using Boyers as a scapegoat because honestly i have no idea what he is teaching the secondary back there, but it is obviously has not been working and it wouldn't hurt to infuse some new blood to shake up the defensive philosophy.

BB needs to stop promoting from within and hire more capable well established coaches to his arsenal, especially on defense. Which for whatever reason, he has been very reluctant about since he has been here. Maybe due to Ego??? We could get results within a few weeks versus waiting another season to hopefully get a stud CB.

:yeahthat:


occams razor !!
 
Our secondary sucks. Yes it does. But what can the Pats do to fix that? We are going to have to make corrections with the personnel we currently have because I don't see any team in the NFL willing to help improve our defense for draft picks.
1. Improve the DB scouting reports.
2. Change the technique for DB coaching.
3. Change the DB scheme.
4. Bring in highly rated secondary or defensive coaching.
5. PAY THE APPROPRIATE FREE AGENTS.

They're all options available to the Patriots.
 
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Quentin Jammer,Sam Shields or Brent Grimes would be nice vets to add next year for help in the secondary
 
Quentin Jammer,Sam Shields or Brent Grimes would be nice vets to add next year for help in the secondary

Some good safeties will be available too.

Even though he wasn't the greatest tackler for the Jets - Kerry Rhodes would be a good pickup, he's improved a ton in Arizona and is good in coverage.
 
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And my grunting about the secondary after this game is much more about the coaching and situational football.

Forget everything up to the end of the game.
There's one minute left.
The other team has to score.

You put a defense in position to, number one, prevent the long pass.
You field a defense with that in mind.
You tell them, don't let anyone get behind you.
You call a defensive set that takes away the long pass.

Instead, they put Ebner in at safety. We know McCourty was called into the safety position last year when Ihedigbo and Brown struggled. We know Sterling Moore has played safety. Instead, it's another ST type, highly inexperienced rookie.

They could have had Dowling or Moore. Or Arrington. I don't care if they struggled earlier in the game. If you asked me who I would rather have on hail Mary protection, any of those corners would have been higher on the list than Ebner. This is a situation where you might even want a receiver deep in the secondary, like they used to use Moss (although granted Lloyd was on the bench injured), Brown, or Edelman.

We know the Patriots have worked on a big nickel package, but they went with the base defense.

Then the safeties bit on the run action while the corners passed the receivers off to the safeties and covered the intermediate zone.

The coaching on that play was explicitly: stop the run and short pass first. Let them try to go deep if they want. But every Patriots defender went short. With a minute left, give them the short run. Give them the middle of the field. Make the QB nervous just managing a 45 yard drive in a minute.

That was a rare failure of coaching. The defense had the wrong personnel for the situation. The defensive play call, with the corners passing off the receivers, was wrong. The reaction, with the safeties playing the run first when the corners were passing off the downfield receivers, was wrong.

I don't know exactly where the blame rests between wrong package, wrong call, and wrong reaction. But two of the three are directly coaching decisions, and the third should have been the sole coaching point of emphasis.
 
Some good safeties will be available too.

Even though he wasn't the greatest tackler for the Jets - Kerry Rhodes would be a good pickup, he's improved a ton in Arizona and is good in coverage.

At safety,Jairus Byrd would be my choice,Ed Reed might retire and Revis isn't leaving NY

Kenny Phillips might be another I would look at

As far as corner goes,I don't see the Chargers resigning Jammer at 33 years old but Bill loves those older vets who have a little left in thier tank.
 
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Brent Grimes tore his achilles tendon.

Yeah,he's had injuries but he's young....at 24 he might be a quick healer.

I think the Falcons might let him go,he does have talent for an UDFA
 
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