What would you do now if you were a regular ref

glm said:

Masturbate to what I just watched.

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thank you for sharing that, but it's a little more than we need to know.

Joker said:

Insane amount of money???...Huh????????????????????

How Much Does an NFL Referee Make?
The average salary that an NFL referee earns per year nests between the sums of $25,000 and $70,000. This is not as much as the referees for others like the NHL

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Do you have a source for this statement? It contradicts everything I've read heretofore on the matter and am wondering how true it may be.

PatsFaninAZ said:

I think the main sticking point is evaluation not money, except pension. I think the NFL wants to avoid having MLB like officials -- guys who are practically untouchable and get lazy.

I think the NFL is actually right on on this. Rules that promote accountability are good. Having the refs have this much leveage is not great. The problem is the NFL tried to crush the refs by suggesting that anyone can do it. That was an all in move and they lost.

What the NFL could have done is say look, this is going to be rough. Fans, we are sorry, but we need to think longterm and protect the integrity of the game. Stick with us, support these guys and we will get through it, and when the regular guys are back they will be leaner, meaner, more accountable and better.

But they didn't do that and now they are screwed.

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This is a good point, and it gets to one of the problems with Goodell: he doesn't appear to feel any sense of accountability towards the fans or the game. He acts without any real degree of communication.

And he, and the league, better watch out. The line so far has been that fans won't stop watching. And until Sunday, I pretty much agreed. And even now, I'll keep watching. But if this keeps up? Ehhh. I have to say, by the end of the Pats game, what I was watching felt so random and arbitrary, I wasn't enjoying it. And this is the PATRIOTS, fer crissakes. Same kind of game, with a mediocre team? I'd say to hell with it, who needs the aggravation.

I honestly do not know how much money any of the refs/umps in their respective leagues make but I would not be surprised and would expect out of all the sports that NFL refs make the least and should. My logic is that MLB, NBA and NHL refs/umps work way more games than the NFL refs, where the games are not just played mostly on Sundays. I would say that an MLB, NBA and even an NHL refs/umps job is more like a full time job while an NFL refs job is more like a part time job. I remember reading that most NFL refs have regular day jobs (I think Hochuli *sp?* is a lawyer if I remember correctly). I know that the NFL has added Thurs games and we have Monday Night games, and for those I say they pay extra but in the big picture scheme of things I have no issue with and believe that NFL should be paid less than their counterparts. With that said...what is the main road block here?

Joker said:

Insane amount of money???...Huh????????????????????

How Much Does an NFL Referee Make?
The average salary that an NFL referee earns per year nests between the sums of $25,000 and $70,000. This is not as much as the referees for others like the NHL

and NBA make. The umpires in Major League Baseball make around $141,000 annually. The NBA referees make around $128,000 annually and the NHL officials earn around $139,000 annually. By looking at these sums, individuals will see that the NFL referees are at the bottom of the charts when it comes to the amount of money they earn. However, one has to consider the fact that an NFL referee works one game a week, while referees in the other sports work multiple games per week. The job of NFL referee required flexibility and go through training before match.

In contrast....

As for the type of salary NFL rookies can expect to earn under their contracts, Slough noted that rookies receive “minimum salaries under the CBA.” This season, the minimum salary is $390,000.00. In 2013, this year’s rookies can expect to earn $480,000.00 in salary. In 2014, they’ll earn $570,000.00 in salary.

You have a unique perspective that I, personally,cannot agree with...but you're welcome to think that ref salaries are "insane!!!"....to me that's like going to a steak house and spending 100 bucks on a 2 pound porterhouse and ragging all meal long about MickeyD's raising their Big Mac price by 25 cents.

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100% agreed. If I take the midpoint of the $25,000 and $75,000 you cite, I get $50,000. Let's think about what these guys do for that money.

They have to attend seminars and training sessions, as well as participate in pre-season activities in Training Camps. None of these things occur in their home town, so they have to travel over night, for at least one night to do any of that, usually more.

On a game weekend, they have to get to the venue the day before if they're reffing a 1:00 or 4:00 game, or early on the day of a night game, to rule out travel delays keeping them away. If they ref a late afternoon game, it's likely that many of them have to spend the night of the game in the city of the game because not every NFL venue has direct or even connecting flights to every part of the country that leave after 9PM, which would be the earliest flight you could plan given stadium traffic. If you ref a night game, you have to stay that night. So, they give up the entire weekend plus, in many cases, the first day of the week. If they do a Thursday night game, they take at least two and maybe three days out of their work week, unless they are local to the game.

On top of that, they do their jobs under constant scrutiny from the League, the Media, the Teams and the Fans.

So, 16 regular season games times two or three days a game (call it 2.5) plus another at least 10--20 days of other travel (call it 15) plus many hours of study and work at home. That comes out to 55 days for less than a thousand dollars a day (not counting time spent working at home). To get a quality professional at the top of his profession, that's dirt cheap. Even if you add the usual 33% for benefits, it's still too little.

I know that a thousand bucks a day sounds like a fortune to many folks, but as we know from the CBA discussions last year, the annual NFL revenue pie is over $9 billion.

When you consider that the NFLRA says that they are looking for around $30 million per year in salary and benefits, with increases over the seven year life of the deal, they're only asking for three tenths of one percent of the annual revenue pie to protect the quality and integrity of the game. The NFL is holding out $10 million below that number. That's insane.

Pay these guys like the Professionals they are!

Joker said:

are you insinuating I made those figures up?

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Do you have a link for them? All I was able to find was ask.com versus Businessweek and Pash's memo which all cite the higher ($150K) figure...

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>>>How Much Does an NFL Referee Make?
The average salary that an NFL referee earns per year nests between the sums of $25,000 and $70,000. This is not as much as the referees for others like the NHL.<<<<<<

What Is an NFL Referee Salary - Ask Jeeves





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>>>>NFL officials make an average of $149,000 per year, and the league has suggested annual 7 percent increases that would raise the regular salary to $189,000 by 2018.<<<<<<
The NFL Fiasco: Why Referees Are Like Chicago Teachers - Businessweek

Joker said:

are you insinuating I made those figures up?

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I know you asked this question to someone else, but please let me respond anyway.

Please don't think I am insinuating you made those numbers up. I am flat out, outright, actually claiming you made those numbers up. Let there be no "insinuation" about it and let my statement be clear and unequivocal.

PatsFanSince74 said:

100% agreed. If I take the midpoint of the $25,000 and $75,000 you cite, I get $50,000.

When you consider that the NFLRA says that they are looking for around $30 million per year in salary and benefits, with increases over the seven year life of the deal, they're only asking for three tenths of one percent of the annual revenue pie to protect the quality and integrity of the game. The NFL is holding out $10 million below that number. That's insane.

Pay these guys like the Professionals they are!

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There are 120 refs. Even at $20MM, that's $167,000 per ref in salary and benefits. $30MM puts it at $250,000 per ref.

If I was a regular ref I would host SNL and do lots of skits making fun of the replaements.

If I was a replacement I'd contact Holiday Inn Express and get in one of their ads.

PatsFanSince74 said:

100% agreed. If I take the midpoint of the $25,000 and $75,000 you cite, I get $50,000. Let's think about what these guys do for that money.

They have to attend seminars and training sessions, as well as participate in pre-season activities in Training Camps. None of these things occur in their home town, so they have to travel over night, for at least one night to do any of that, usually more.

On a game weekend, they have to get to the venue the day before if they're reffing a 1:00 or 4:00 game, or early on the day of a night game, to rule out travel delays keeping them away. If they ref a late afternoon game, it's likely that many of them have to spend the night of the game in the city of the game because not every NFL venue has direct or even connecting flights to every part of the country that leave after 9PM, which would be the earliest flight you could plan given stadium traffic. If you ref a night game, you have to stay that night. So, they give up the entire weekend plus, in many cases, the first day of the week. If they do a Thursday night game, they take at least two and maybe three days out of their work week, unless they are local to the game.

On top of that, they do their jobs under constant scrutiny from the League, the Media, the Teams and the Fans.

So, 16 regular season games times two or three days a game (call it 2.5) plus another at least 10--20 days of other travel (call it 15) plus many hours of study and work at home. That comes out to 55 days for less than a thousand dollars a day (not counting time spent working at home). To get a quality professional at the top of his profession, that's dirt cheap. Even if you add the usual 33% for benefits, it's still too little.

I know that a thousand bucks a day sounds like a fortune to many folks, but as we know from the CBA discussions last year, the annual NFL revenue pie is over $9 billion.

When you consider that the NFLRA says that they are looking for around $30 million per year in salary and benefits, with increases over the seven year life of the deal, they're only asking for three tenths of one percent of the annual revenue pie to protect the quality and integrity of the game. The NFL is holding out $10 million below that number. That's insane.

Pay these guys like the Professionals they are!

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They should be under scrutiny from the league. Everyone is under scrutiny from their employer. Obviously there is much higher scrutiny from the media and fans in sports, but the leagues do their best to protect the referees from the teams. Not many professions (part-time at that) are given the protection of fining those who speak negatively about them.

I also have no idea where that $25-75k comes from, but from I understand the average for even a first-time official was at $78k. Which is fantastic pay for 55 days, even though I question that number as well.

Timbo717 said:

They should be under scrutiny from the league. Everyone is under scrutiny from their employer. Obviously there is much higher scrutiny from the media and fans in sports, but the leagues do their best to protect the referees from the teams. Not many professions (part-time at that) are given the protection of fining those who speak negatively about them.

I also have no idea where that $25-75k comes from, but from I understand the average for even a first-time official was at $78k. Which is fantastic pay for 55 days, even though I question that number as well.

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We just disagree. At the top of their profession, as one of only 119 people publicly protecting the integrity and success of a $9b per year enterprise on the field, I don't think a little over $1,000 per day, when it includes benefits, is "fantastic." It represents dramatic under compensation. Also, I'd left out preseason games which add another 10 days to their year, bringing it over or around 60.

The refs are asking for a package that escalates to $30 million per year over seven years (remember, 30 mill is less than one half of one percent of NFL revenue for a year and yet these are the guys that make sure nonsense like we saw this weekend happens rarely and not just about in every other game).

Now there are about 120 officials and the league wants to bring the number to 141 to allow for flexibility and also for benching officials who aren't performing. $30 million would come out to an average of $212k per official. Assuming that Referees get paid more than a Field Judge and that longer term officials get paid more than newbies, that feels like it would average out about right.

That's a lot of good money and the standards for holding onto a job like that would have to be very high.

A Field Judge in his first year would probably get less than $100 and a long term, SB caliber ref would be able to make around $300k or about $4,000 per day plus benefits. That would make him competitive with a senior professional consultant at the top of his profession in industry.

One of the first lessons I learned after I left B school was that "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys." The NFL is fielding its version of the monkey squad now; time to pay up and get the pros back into the game.

PatsFanSince74 said:

We just disagree. At the top of their profession, as one of only 119 people publicly protecting the integrity and success of a $9b per year enterprise on the field, I don't think a little over $1,000 per day, when it includes benefits, is "fantastic." It represents dramatic under compensation. Also, I'd left out preseason games which add another 10 days to their year, bringing it over or around 60.

The refs are asking for a package that escalates to $30 million per year over seven years (remember, 30 mill is less than one half of one percent of NFL revenue for a year and yet these are the guys that make sure nonsense like we saw this weekend happens rarely and not just about in every other game).

Now there are about 120 officials and the league wants to bring the number to 141 to allow for flexibility and also for benching officials who aren't performing. $30 million would come out to an average of $212k per official. Assuming that Referees get paid more than a Field Judge and that longer term officials get paid more than newbies, that feels like it would average out about right.

That's a lot of good money and the standards for holding onto a job like that would have to be very high.

A Field Judge in his first year would probably get less than $100 and a long term, SB caliber ref would be able to make around $300k or about $4,000 per day plus benefits. That would make him competitive with a senior professional consultant at the top of his profession in industry.

One of the first lessons I learned after I left B school was that "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys." The NFL is fielding its version of the monkey squad now; time to pay up and get the pros back into the game.

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Well yeah, I think there is a lot of disagreement about this because there are so many assumptions being made about the money and time involved. And opinions on what is and isn't satisfactory work for 60 days will vary, certainly. But when several of the days of this hypothetical time commitment are maybe a plane ride and hotel stay, it's still decent pay that some will consider fantastic. It's a drop in the bucket for the NFL in terms of revenue, without a doubt you are correct on that. But it's not like it is a lowball offer, in my opinion.

PatsFanSince74 said:

We just disagree. At the top of their profession, as one of only 119 people publicly protecting the integrity and success of a $9b per year enterprise on the field, I don't think a little over $1,000 per day, when it includes benefits, is "fantastic." It represents dramatic under compensation. Also, I'd left out preseason games which add another 10 days to their year, bringing it over or around 60.

The refs are asking for a package that escalates to $30 million per year over seven years (remember, 30 mill is less than one half of one percent of NFL revenue for a year and yet these are the guys that make sure nonsense like we saw this weekend happens rarely and not just about in every other game).

Now there are about 120 officials and the league wants to bring the number to 141 to allow for flexibility and also for benching officials who aren't performing. $30 million would come out to an average of $212k per official. Assuming that Referees get paid more than a Field Judge and that longer term officials get paid more than newbies, that feels like it would average out about right.

That's a lot of good money and the standards for holding onto a job like that would have to be very high.

A Field Judge in his first year would probably get less than $100 and a long term, SB caliber ref would be able to make around $300k or about $4,000 per day plus benefits. That would make him competitive with a senior professional consultant at the top of his profession in industry.

One of the first lessons I learned after I left B school was that "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys." The NFL is fielding its version of the monkey squad now; time to pay up and get the pros back into the game.

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I don't consider the level of talent required by an NFL ref to be the equal of a top professional consultant. While the NFL has seriously screwed the pooch here, it's primarily because they threw untrained replacements out there. If they had actually planned for this occasion and got the replacements a few months of training, it likely wouldn't be nearly as bad. Poorly negotiated on the NFL's part, that's for certain.

Joker said:

Insane amount of money???...Huh????????????????????

How Much Does an NFL Referee Make?
The average salary that an NFL referee earns per year nests between the sums of $25,000 and $70,000. This is not as much as the referees for others like the NHL

and NBA make. The umpires in Major League Baseball make around $141,000 annually. The NBA referees make around $128,000 annually and the NHL officials earn around $139,000 annually. By looking at these sums, individuals will see that the NFL referees are at the bottom of the charts when it comes to the amount of money they earn. However, one has to consider the fact that an NFL referee works one game a week, while referees in the other sports work multiple games per week. The job of NFL referee required flexibility and go through training before match.

In contrast....

As for the type of salary NFL rookies can expect to earn under their contracts, Slough noted that rookies receive “minimum salaries under the CBA.” This season, the minimum salary is $390,000.00. In 2013, this year’s rookies can expect to earn $480,000.00 in salary. In 2014, they’ll earn $570,000.00 in salary.

You have a unique perspective that I, personally,cannot agree with...but you're welcome to think that ref salaries are "insane!!!"....to me that's like going to a steak house and spending 100 bucks on a 2 pound porterhouse and ragging all meal long about MickeyD's raising their Big Mac price by 25 cents.

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I don't know where you got those figures but they are way off. In 2011 an NFL referee with 5 years service made $115K and by 2018 would be making $183K under the original offer the league had been proposing. I think they've upped the ante since.

The sticking point remains the retirement. And none of them would "lose" their benefits as those would be vested and fully funded and frozen pending retirement with contributions going forward being placed in 401k plans. And the other sticking points remain the addition of 3 crews and the potential for the league to utilize them to replace officials on existing crews not only for illness or injury but for poor performance. The officials are also quite concerned about who will grade them given their belief they out qualify anyone who would be. And they are concerned about the league's plans to persue eventual full time year round status for crews beginning with one official from each crew position with the eventual goal being to be able to educate and field better overall crews.

There is not a ton of turnover season to season among these 120 odd men, kind of like supreme court judges who leave when they are ready. Hoculi is 61 and has been at it for over 20 years. His back judge is 66. And his head linesman is the guy who signaled Roethlisberger first not in then in on his infamous 3rd down phantom rushing TD against Seattle in the 2006 Superbowl. And last season blew his whistle too soon negating a fumble and recovery by SF against the Giants in the NFCC game that would have put SF both in FG range and in position to run out the clock instead of losing to Eli in OT...and sending him on to meet us again in the Superbowl. Kind of puts the poor replacement bozos in context...

JJDChE said:

I don't consider the level of talent required by an NFL ref to be the equal of a top professional consultant. While the NFL has seriously screwed the pooch here, it's primarily because they threw untrained replacements out there. If they had actually planned for this occasion and got the replacements a few months of training, it likely wouldn't be nearly as bad. Poorly negotiated on the NFL's part, that's for certain.

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The refs union basically screwed the pooch on that one as they now have some sort of reciprocity language with the D-I college coaches union that precludes them from filling in during a work stoppage or they are out of their own union.

Back in 2001 when the refs last contract squabble was underway and they were demanding a 400% increase they eventually negotiated down to 50%...Hoculi was the union leader and he actually sent threatening letters to the D-I officials who did fill in saying they would never work again in the field. He later said he regretted doing that... Those replacements had some rough moments too but their on field leader/supervisor Mike Periera had their back so you hardly noticed it.

Really this is just a tempest in a teapot that everyone from the media to the NFLPA and it's members and their coaches has been bound and determined from the outset to make into as big an issue as it can for a variety of existing agenda driven reasons. Mostly having to due with resentment of ownership.

Timbo717 said:

Well yeah, I think there is a lot of disagreement about this because there are so many assumptions being made about the money and time involved. And opinions on what is and isn't satisfactory work for 60 days will vary, certainly. But when several of the days of this hypothetical time commitment are maybe a plane ride and hotel stay, it's still decent pay that some will consider fantastic. It's a drop in the bucket for the NFL in terms of revenue, without a doubt you are correct on that. But it's not like it is a lowball offer, in my opinion.

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That's a fair enough point and well-made. And, I am sure that the High School and the Lingerie League Refs (yes!) who have been officiating the NFL games recently are among the "some" who would "consider [it] fantastic." The guys who actually know how to do the job don't consider it so fantastic and I tend to agree with them.

Occasionally, markets have to adjust to changes in perceived value.

Up until the last couple of weeks, the average fan (myself included, BTW!) watched an NFL game and more or less assumed that the guys who could adequately officiate that game were, if not "a dime a dozen," certainly not worth big bucks compensation. I suspect there isn't a committed and well-trained High School or College football Official in the country who didn't secretly think that he could do as good a job.

Now, it's pretty clear that it's a darn tough job to keep control of 22 players on the field, plus another 84 on the sidelines along with highly paid, ego-centric coaches, all in the context of a fast moving game with a rule book as long as a telephone book (the official Soccer rule book is maybe 20 pages long in comparison) and national TV Broadcast Producers and Announcers who want to keep the game moving along with an accustomed rhythm (the Jets Dolphins game, albeit in OT, took four hours to complete last Sunday).

Think of an NFL season as a series of 156 Rock Concerts with a big name band or singer. Could you replace the lead Lighting and sound Technicians or the back up bands and dancers with the crew from the local High School's production of Oklahoma? I don't think so, but that's what the NFL is trying to do.

This is a Nine Billion Dollar entertainment business and it's now become clear that the seven guys in striped shirts, while not always perfect, are doing a lot more than blowing whistles and waving their arms during games.

Don't get me wrong the league screwed up in their handling of finding replacements. They weren't able to get the good college coaches for a number of reasons, and were left with some very mediocre to bad referees in positions where errors are highly publicized. There should have been more training, more prep. I would imagine there are several D-1 referees who could make the move up and become more than qualified even if it isn't immediate.

They would be more apt to do so if they knew that they weren't giving up good college gigs for what they fully expect to be temporary positions. Add in that any referee is aspires to be in the NFL in the near future knows that they can't cross the picket line and give the middle finger to the union they are trying to become a part of. Add to that the fact that this group of replacements is viewed as a group, and the guy who was next in line to jump to the NFL would've had to face being lumped in with the Lingerie football refs of the world.

I don't think it is so much that these are the only 120 guys who can do the job, but the politics of the situation are such that the next tier of guys who could do it have little incentive to do so right now. The pay increase for them is triple, quadruple maybe more of what they make in college. I would bet they would consider it pretty fantastic, but the politics of crossing the picket line hurts them in the long term.

I think your point is valid, their perceived value has increased and I don't think you're alone in that. But, for me I have to account that a large part of the increase is derived from comparing a filet mignon to a hot pocket instead of comparing it to a rib-eye. I personally would like to see the rib-eye but it's not going to happen this year. My bet is they get a deal done because as you said, it's a multi-billion industry.

Timbo717 said:

Don't get me wrong the league screwed up in their handling of finding replacements. They weren't able to get the good college coaches for a number of reasons, and were left with some very mediocre to bad referees in positions where errors are highly publicized. There should have been more training, more prep. I would imagine there are several D-1 referees who could make the move up and become more than qualified even if it isn't immediate.

They would be more apt to do so if they knew that they weren't giving up good college gigs for what they fully expect to be temporary positions. Add in that any referee is aspires to be in the NFL in the near future knows that they can't cross the picket line and give the middle finger to the union they are trying to become a part of. Add to that the fact that this group of replacements is viewed as a group, and the guy who was next in line to jump to the NFL would've had to face being lumped in with the Lingerie football refs of the world.

I don't think it is so much that these are the only 120 guys who can do the job, but the politics of the situation are such that the next tier of guys who could do it have little incentive to do so right now. The pay increase for them is triple, quadruple maybe more of what they make in college. I would bet they would consider it pretty fantastic, but the politics of crossing the picket line hurts them in the long term.

I think your point is valid, their perceived value has increased and I don't think you're alone in that. But, for me I have to account that a large part of the increase is derived from comparing a filet mignon to a hot pocket instead of comparing it to a rib-eye. I personally would like to see the rib-eye but it's not going to happen this year. My bet is they get a deal done because as you said, it's a multi-billion industry.

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good discussion. Thanks!