Koppen May Not Make The Cut

shmessy said:

If Woody could shotgun snap, he would've been a superstar.

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Perhaps but as a guard he was slightly above average.

PLEEEZE, Mr. Referee, for the lov o' God, stop the fight, before Kope hurts himself (or Brady) out there:

This evening from Bedard:

Practice rundown #8 - Extra Points - Boston.com

"....Dan Koppen and Dan Connolly both needed trainer assistance during post-fight laps. both returned......"

".....•Koppen has now lost nine-straight reps, and wound up on the ground in two-on-twos....."

shmessy said:

PLEEEZE, Mr. Referee stop the fight, before Kope gets hurt:

This evening from Bedard:

Practice rundown #8 - Extra Points - Boston.com

"....Dan Koppen and Dan Connolly both needed trainer assistance during post-fight laps. both returned......"

".....•Koppen has now lost nine-straight reps, and wound up on the ground in two-on-twos....."

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Did Koppen pull a Hillis on Bedards wife or something?

Slappy said:

Koppen was never great to begin with. He's been surrounded by superstars for most of his career.

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You mean guys like Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, Brandon Gorin, Billy Yates, and Russ Hochstein, Stephen Neal (when healthy).

And that is just the guards.. They when you start talking about RT and guys like Tom Ashworth, Kenyatta Jones and Adrian Klemm.

Yes, so MANY superstars..

DaBruinz said:

You mean guys like Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, Brandon Gorin, Billy Yates, and Russ Hochstein, Stephen Neal (when healthy).

And that is just the guards.. They when you start talking about RT and guys like Tom Ashworth, Kenyatta Jones and Adrian Klemm.

Yes, so MANY superstars..

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For most of his career he had Neal on one side of him and Cranky Mankins on the other. I will be interested to see how you argue against this point.

Look, Koppen owes the Patriots NOTHING. He was a 5th rounder who was a SOLID center for the team - - undersized, yet quick. He built a rapport with Brady not unlike that of Branch and was exceptionally durable for 8 or 9 years.

In the past few years, he has slowed down a bit and the leg injury last year is probably the last straw.

Job well done, Dan. Nothing to be regretful about.

shmessy said:

In the past few years, he has slowed down a bit and the leg injury last year is probably the last straw.

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Doesn't sound good but there is the possibility that his mechanics are affected by his lack of confidence in the leg. He may get that back with work.

Maybe.

AndyJohnson said:

The reports on Gallery have not been stellar either.

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You mean like he's on a Dotcom bubble and it's 9/11?

AndyJohnson said:

...the starting C can also play both G spots...

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shmessy said:

Oh no you didn't!!!!!!!

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Now that's what I call "Positional Flexibility." :singing:

Slappy said:

For most of his career he had Neal on one side of him and Cranky Mankins on the other. I will be interested to see how you argue against this point.

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It's easy to argue this point.

2003 - Andruzzi (16), Woody (14), Hochstein (14)
2004 - Andruzzi (16) and Neal (16), Hochstein
2005 - Mankins (16)and Neal (16), Hochstein (7)
2006 - Mankins (16), Neal (14), and Hochstein (2)
2007 - Mankins (16), Neal (8), Hochstein (8), Yates
2008 - Mankins (16), Neal (11), Yates ,
2009 - Mankins (16), Neal (12), Connolly, Wendell
2010 - Mankins (9) , Neal (8), Connolly, Wendell (Mankins missed the 1st 7 games and Neal the last 8).

By my count, Koppen has played in 121 games.

9+14+8+11+12+1 = 55 games with both Mankins and Neal. That is not even half his games and certainly doesn't qualifiy as MOST. And, as someone mentioned, Neal was good, not Great.

Now, had you said Mankins and/or Neal on either side, then you might have had a case. But, alas, you didn't. So, you don't.

DaBruinz said:

It's easy to argue this point.

2003 - Andruzzi (16), Woody (14), Hochstein (14)
2004 - Andruzzi (16) and Neal (16), Hochstein
2005 - Mankins (16)and Neal (16), Hochstein (7)
2006 - Mankins (16), Neal (14), and Hochstein (2)
2007 - Mankins (16), Neal (8), Hochstein (8), Yates
2008 - Mankins (16), Neal (11), Yates ,
2009 - Mankins (16), Neal (12), Connolly, Wendell
2010 - Mankins (9) , Neal (8), Connolly, Wendell (Mankins missed the 1st 7 games and Neal the last 8).

By my count, Koppen has played in 121 games.

9+14+8+11+12+1 = 55 games with both Mankins and Neal. That is not even half his games and certainly doesn't qualifiy as MOST. And, as someone mentioned, Neal was good, not Great.

Now, had you said Mankins and/or Neal on either side, then you might have had a case. But, alas, you didn't. So, you don't.

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So he played with mankins on his left for 89 games and Neal / Woody on his right for 99 games. The point was he had talent around him and your own stats show this. Let's not argue phrasing of the question and stick to the underlying fact that he had consistently good talent along side him.

DaBruinz said:

It's easy to argue this point.

2003 - Andruzzi (16), Woody (14), Hochstein (14)
2004 - Andruzzi (16) and Neal (16), Hochstein
2005 - Mankins (16)and Neal (16), Hochstein (7)
2006 - Mankins (16), Neal (14), and Hochstein (2)
2007 - Mankins (16), Neal (8), Hochstein (8), Yates
2008 - Mankins (16), Neal (11), Yates ,
2009 - Mankins (16), Neal (12), Connolly, Wendell
2010 - Mankins (9) , Neal (8), Connolly, Wendell (Mankins missed the 1st 7 games and Neal the last 8).

By my count, Koppen has played in 121 games.

9+14+8+11+12+1 = 55 games with both Mankins and Neal. That is not even half his games and certainly doesn't qualifiy as MOST. And, as someone mentioned, Neal was good, not Great.

Now, had you said Mankins and/or Neal on either side, then you might have had a case. But, alas, you didn't. So, you don't.

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Ahh, the semantics game. It suits you.

Slappy said:

For most of his career he had Neal on one side of him and Cranky Mankins on the other. I will be interested to see how you argue against this point.

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We're not talking Max Lane versus Reggie White in the Super Bowl here.

Dan Koppen was the starting center on a team that went to three Super Bowls in four years and the '08 team that went 11-5 without Brady (possibly the biggest accomplishment by the offensive line.)

Maybe Dan Koppen made Neal and Mankins better. Stephen Neal was a friggin' wrestler who learned how to be a top-flight offensive lineman. If he had some schlemiel on his shoulder, he would have gotten pinned every week.

Maybe Koppen called the right blocking schemes as Brady adjusted the play to confront the defense he recognized pretty well.

Maybe you guys ought to duke it out and run some laps.

goheels22002 said:

We're not talking Max Lane versus Reggie White in the Super Bowl here.

Dan Koppen was the starting center on a team that went to three Super Bowls in four years and the '08 team that went 11-5 without Brady (possibly the biggest accomplishment by the offensive line.)

Maybe Dan Koppen made Neal and Mankins better. Stephen Neal was a friggin' wrestler who learned how to be a top-flight offensive lineman. If he had some schlemiel on his shoulder, he would have gotten pinned every week.

Maybe Koppen called the right blocking schemes as Brady adjusted the play to confront the defense he recognized pretty well.

Maybe you guys ought to duke it out and run some laps.

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I'm all set with running laps. Koppen didn't suck. He was pretty good for most of his career. He's not pretty good anymore. Neal and Cranky Mankins would have been very good no matter who played center. Doesn't Brady dictate the blocking schemes in this offense?

Slappy said:

I'm all set with running laps. Koppen didn't suck. He was pretty good for most of his career. He's not pretty good anymore. Neal and Cranky Mankins would have been very good no matter who played center. Doesn't Brady dictate the blocking schemes in this offense?

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I agree that Koppen is at the end of the line and there are better options right now for starting center. The chippiness in camp looks like frustration on his part that the quickness and strength aren't there. I like the fight he's got in him.

Put a poor Center in any line and everybody's play falls apart.

Along with the blindside Tackle, the Center is the most important position in a line, especially against the 3-4. The center has to a) snap the ball on the right count, b) make the initial blocking call because he sees the defense better than any other OL position, 3) adjust that call if the QB changes plays at the line (often), and 4) block his position after snapping the ball.

With the 3-4 an increasing part of every team's defensive scheme, the center gets the added pressure of some not-so-friendly 350 pound load like Ngata or Wilfork or whomever teeing off on him at the snap trying to collapse the line.

Brady's calling the play and points out the Mike LB, but the center is making the initial blocking call for the linemen based on the gap defense.

It's a unit. If there's a weak link on a line (as we've seen over the years) everybody's performance diminishes. We have three losing Super Bowls of tape to look at that tell you where there was a guy who was hurt or not up to the task that day.

goheels22002 said:

Dan Koppen was the starting center on a team that went to three Super Bowls in four years and the '08 team that went 11-5 without Brady (possibly the biggest accomplishment by the offensive line.)

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Actually, Dan Koppen wasn't even drafted until the 2003 season, so he wasn't the starting center on any team that went to 3 SB's in 4 years. He does have 2 rings though. He actually wasn't even the starting center during his rookie year either (2003), although he did start the SB that year at the position due to an injury or two on the line, which caused starting center Woody to move to guard.

In the 2004 season, he became the Pats starting center permanently.

I agree with your general overall thoughts though.

In 2007, Koppen missed one game due to a foot injury, but managed to start the other 15 games, not allowing a single sack and helping the Patriots to get to Super Bowl XLII. He was selected as a starter to the 2008 Pro Bowl, his first appearance in the game.

Koppen proceeded to start all 16 games for the next two seasons. In the 2009 season he was a member of an offensive line that allowed the fewest sacks (18) by a Patriots offensive line since the NFL moved to a 16-game schedule in 1978.

Here's an awesome quote by Belichick regarding his play:


“ Seeing the front seven, even sometimes the secondary rotation on a particular play...he does that very well and is on the same page with our quarterback...He's really good at that, probably as good as anybody I've ever coached."

goheels22002 said:

Along with the blindside Tackle, the Center is the most important position in a line, especially against the 3-4. The center has to a) snap the ball on the right count, b) make the initial blocking call because he sees the defense better than any other OL position, 3) adjust that call if the QB changes plays at the line (often), and 4) block his position after snapping the ball.

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In reality though, Koppen would likely still do the first 3 things better than both Wendell and McDonald. It certainly could be argued strongly that he'd even do the first 3 things better than Connelly too. The problem of course, is his inability to do the last thing--which is block his position, or at least that's what it seems lately in TC.

Many here also talk of Koppen's perceived notion that he has "been in decline for many years." I don't know when his decline started to be honest with you, but in 2007 he didn't allow a single sack. In 2008 he went to the Pro-Bowl. In 2009 he was part of the line that allowed a total of 18 overall sacks, which set the modern day 16 game season record for a franchise. In 2011 he didn't play, so I'm guessing his "decline" started in the 2010 season and has been continuing into the current TC.

It all depends where Belichick sees the bigger weakness (G vs. C), and IF he still sees Koppen as having enough positives to contribute there or not.

If Connelly is being planned as playing guard for approx. 1/2 the year until Mankins gets back, then Koppen may still somehow have the upper hand over McDonald and Wendell--despite his poorer performances lately in TC.

Many of us (including myself) would much rather see McDonald or Wendell play center, thus allowing Connelly to maximize his strength at the guard position. I don't know how Belichick sees Koppen vs. McDonald/Wendell though, and if Belichick would rather use Connelly at center or guard. Coming up with the best possible combination will certainly be one of the deciding factors.

Koppen needs to show improvement to keep his place/earn a spot on this team. Whether or not he can do that is the obvious question, and it isn't looking too good right now, at least if you go by the Greg Bedard reports.

Slappy said:

I'm all set with running laps. Koppen didn't suck. He was pretty good for most of his career. He's not pretty good anymore. Neal and Cranky Mankins would have been very good no matter who played center. Doesn't Brady dictate the blocking schemes in this offense?

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No. I don't believe that does. He points out the mike, and possibly some tendencies that he may see in the huddle.

I'm pretty sure that it's the centers job, but I could be wrong of course.

I get what you're saying about LM and Stephen Neal being pretty good with whoever played center, but Mankins' play wasn't all that hot last year, and it wasn't all that hot in the 2007 SB either. On top of that Mankins held out for 1/2 of the 2010 season too.

As far as Neal goes, he certainly had his injury problems too, mainly at the end of his career vs the beginning.

In 2007---Neal missed 1/2 the season. In that season, Koppen did not allow one single sack himself. Obviously Koppen didn't rely on Neal as much as you may think, b/c Neal was absent for 1/2 the year.

In 2008---Neal started the year on the PUP list, missing a nice portion again. In that same year, Koppen went on the Pro Bowl. Again, it wouldn't seem as though there is as much of a relationship as you may have initially thought.

In 2009---Neal again missed 1/4 of the year. This was the only year since 2006 where he actually played in the most games, which was 12.

In 2010---Neal missed 1/2 of the entire season again, being placed on IR after the first 8 games. (on top of that, this was also the yr that Mankins held out for the FIRST 1/2 of the season, so Koppen did not have ONE game where he had both Neal and Mankins this yr)

If you really look at it, Stephen Neal missed a very good portion of each year in the 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 seasons, which were obviously the last 4 of his career.

Considering that Koppen didn't even become a full time starter at center until the 2004 season, that means that he played with Stephen Neal on a consistant basis for the 3 years of 2004--2006. After that, Neal missed a great deal of time in the last 4 seasons, so Koppen couldn't have relied on him nearly as much as you're stating.

supafly said:

No. I don't believe that does. He points out the mike, and possibly some tendencies that he may see in the huddle.

I'm pretty sure that it's the centers job, but I could be wrong of course.

I get what you're saying about LM and Stephen Neal being pretty good with whoever played center, but Mankins' play wasn't all that hot last year, and it wasn't all that hot in the 2007 SB either. On top of that Mankins held out for 1/2 of the 2010 season too.

As far as Neal goes, he certainly had his injury problems too, mainly at the end of his career vs the beginning.

In 2007---Neal missed 1/2 the season. In that season, Koppen did not allow one single sack himself. Obviously Koppen didn't rely on Neal as much as you may think, b/c Neal was absent for 1/2 the year.

In 2008---Neal started the year on the PUP list, missing a nice portion again. In that same year, Koppen went on the Pro Bowl. Again, it wouldn't seem as though there is as much of a relationship as you may have initially thought.

In 2009---Neal again missed 1/4 of the year. This was the only year since 2006 where he actually played in the most games, which was 12.

In 2010---Neal missed 1/2 of the entire season again, being placed on IR after the first 8 games. (on top of that, this was also the yr that Mankins held out for the FIRST 1/2 of the season, so Koppen did not have ONE game where he had both Neal and Mankins this yr)

If you really look at it, Stephen Neal missed a very good portion of each year in the 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 seasons, which were obviously the last 4 of his career.

Considering that Koppen didn't even become a full time starter at center until the 2004 season, that means that he played with Stephen Neal on a consistant basis for the 3 years of 2004--2006. After that, Neal missed a great deal of time in the last 4 seasons, so Koppen couldn't have relied on him nearly as much as you're stating.

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I was stating that he played next to him for most of his career. 99 out of 120 is most. I never claimed Neal wasn't often banged up. That was a lot of words to say very little.

Slappy said:

Ahh, the semantics game. It suits you.

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Gotta love it. You talk out your arse, make an untrue statement and then call it "the semantics game".

Fact is that Koppen only played 52 games with both Neal And Mankins next to him. And that flies contrary to what your claim was.

And looking at the thread, Others have blown your claim out of the water as well. And what I see is you attempting to backtrack and recover instead of just admitting that you were wrong..